Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[OldSchoolManc]

You’ve come in this thread saying you haven’t watched a single minute then dismiss people who have reported that the fans are enjoying it. So have you watched it and you’re pretending? Or are you just being dismissive because you can’t accept the truth?

I watch the news. I look on social media. It is impossible to avoid because it’s the World Cup.
There is no truth whatsoever that this is a ‘successful’ World Cup.
Do you think I’m sat in a bunker somewhere unaware of the outside world?

 

[maniak]

I feel like you guys haven’t ever left the UK. Look, like Dubai, there’s so many people in these countries who are freely LGBT, going to gay nights at bars etc. The country just doesn’t want to shout about it. They aren’t out policing LGBT, looking for them and putting them in jail. The country simply doesn’t want to shout about it and officially legalise it.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/24/qatar-security-forces-arrest-abuse-lgbt-people

 

[maniak]

Right so instead we should try and promote a country to become North Korea 2.0 and not let anyone in and not give it any attention so as to avoid them interacting with the world at all.

Nonsense such as understanding cultures or sharing values and meeting on common ground belong in Disney movies only!

There are parts of qatari culture I don't want to share. You're treating abuse of lgbt and workers as if we're talking about music or food, it's all culture, so let's be understanding.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Just returned after a whole week in Doha.
Can't say much negative.

Very well organised tournament. Friendly people all over the place. Brilliant weather. Good food (although gastro service sometimes a bit shit). A lot of fans from different nations central in one city. All the stadiums reachable within 20-30min via Metro or Bus. Beer also available if you knew where, although really expensive.
I felt welcome and secure from the moment I arrived at the airport and would have loved to stay a few days more.

 

[2mufc0]

Are you absolutely serious and that blinkered?!
It has been a disaster from start to finish.

If the only thing you read is the guardian then maybe so.

 

[shamans]

There are parts of qatari culture I don't want to share. You're treating abuse of lgbt and workers as if we're talking about music or food, it's all culture, so let's be understanding.

This was "part of" western culture not 40-50 years ago. Societies evolve and open up to new ideas at different rates. That's never happening if you boycott them. If you held an election in Qatar on LGBTQ rights today, the results wouldn't change anything. That is to say, unless the people themselves feel a certain way you cannot force it upon them. And guess what will make people change the way they think?

Equating not boycotting the world cup to approving all LGBTQ abuse is just one of the many ridiculous things I've seen in the media. You have to look at the trajectory of a country and where it has come. Decades ago, for Qatari government to say all LGBTQ are welcome would have been insane. At the end of the day, boycotting the world cup achieves nothing for lgbtq but participating does.

 

[Pickle85]

This was "part of" western culture not 40-50 years ago. Societies evolve and open up to new ideas at different rates. That's never happening if you boycott them. If you held an election in Qatar on LGBTQ rights today, the results wouldn't change anything. That is to say, unless the people themselves feel a certain way you cannot force it upon them.

Equating not boycotting the world cup to approving all LGBTQ abuse is just one of the many ridiculous things I've seen in the media. You have to look at the trajectory of a country and where it has come. Decades ago, for Qatari government to say all LGBTQ are welcome would have been insane. At the end of the day, boycotting the world cup achieves nothing for lgbtq but participating does.

What does participating in the world cup do for the lgbtq community exactly, aside from shining a light on how backwards and regressive Qatari attitudes are towards it?

 

[Wibble]

Still not watched 1 min. Still not sure if boycotting or just no interest. Or both.

 

[shamans]

What does participating in the world cup do for the lgbtq community exactly, aside from shining a light on how backwards and regressive Qatari attitudes are towards it?

The country has gone as far as saying we don't care if you are gay, if you get your own hotel room go at it but no public display of affection (as it applies to straight folks). It's not perfect but if you compare the change from even the 1990s this would have been unimaginable in a country like Qatar

 

[Wibble]

At the end of the day, boycotting the world cup achieves nothing for lgbtq but participating does.

How on earth has this WC benefitted LGBTQ+ people?

 

[RacingClub]

Still not watched 1 min. Still not sure if boycotting or just no interest. Or both.

I respect your resilience or your apathy. Or both.

The reality of the situation is that you really aren't missing out on anything life changing either way.

 

[Wibble]

The country has gone as far as saying we don't care if you are gay, if you get your own hotel room go at it but no public display of affection (as it applies to straight folks). It's not perfect but if you compare the change from even the 1990s this would have been unimaginable in a country like Qatar

Which will be reversed as soon as the WC is over.

 

[maniak]

This was "part of" western culture not 40-50 years ago. Societies evolve and open up to new ideas at different rates. That's never happening if you boycott them. If you held an election in Qatar on LGBTQ rights today, the results wouldn't change anything. That is to say, unless the people themselves feel a certain way you cannot force it upon them. And guess what will make people change the way they think?

Equating not boycotting the world cup to approving all LGBTQ abuse is just one of the many ridiculous things I've seen in the media. You have to look at the trajectory of a country and where it has come. Decades ago, for Qatari government to say all LGBTQ are welcome would have been insane. At the end of the day, boycotting the world cup achieves nothing for lgbtq but participating does.

That's a very strange logic I must say, plenty of boycotts in history have resulted in change.

I don't want to isolate qatar as if it's north korea. I am not boycotting the country itself. If qatar wants to open itself to the world good for them, if they want to welcome foreigners good for them. There's plenty of interaction that can take place.

I am boycotting a competition that is being held in qatar due to massive corruption, where hundreds (probably thousands) of workers died building the infrastructure and where the organization has made a point of being actively anti-lgbt.

 

[shamans]

How on earth has this WC benefitted LGBTQ+ people?

I don't think a rainbow flag or symbol made its way to Qatar before this world cup. I don't think Qatar has ever had to answer questions on LGBTQ before this world cup.

 

[Wibble]

I don't think a rainbow flag or symbol made its way to Qatar before this world cup. I don't think Qatar has ever had to answer questions on LGBTQ before this world cup.

Only because they wanted the WC so much. All will revert back as soon as the WC ends. Nothing has changed.

 

[shamans]

Which will be reversed as soon as the WC is over.

Speculating on the future is pointless. None of us can say otherwise.

That's a very strange logic I must say, plenty of boycotts in history have resulted in change.

I don't want to isolate qatar as if it's north korea. I am not boycotting the country itself. If qatar wants to open itself to the world good for them, if they want to welcome foreigners good for them. There's plenty of interaction that can take place.

I am boycotting a competition that is being held in qatar due to massive corruption, where hundreds (probably thousands) of workers died building the infrastructure and where the organization has made a point of being actively anti-lgbt.

Boycotting does achieve things but so does positive reinforcement. Radicalization often takes place when a country/nations efforts are constantly seen as "hmm but not good enough" until they get into mode of total isolation and mistrust.

 

[maniak]

The country has gone as far as saying we don't care if you are gay, if you get your own hotel room go at it but no public display of affection (as it applies to straight folks). It's not perfect but if you compare the change from even the 1990s this would have been unimaginable in a country like Qatar

Is the HRW lying about cases recorded just a couple of months before the WC where lgbt folks were arrested, beaten and tortured?

 

[shamans]

BBC ….Sterling has returned home due to an armed robbery.

Bloody awful.

It's at his London home. Only mentioning since this is the boycott thread.

Only because they wanted the WC so much. All will revert back as soon as the WC ends. Nothing has changed.

Again, speculation.

 

[Pickle85]

The country has gone as far as saying we don't care if you are gay, if you get your own hotel room go at it but no public display of affection (as it applies to straight folks). It's not perfect but if you compare the change from even the 1990s this would have been unimaginable in a country like Qatar

And do you think that attitude is likely to stick around after the world cup? All they've done is barely tolerated the perfectly legitimate lifestyle of a huge swathe of the population for the duration of the event. It's hardly a massive moment for the Qatari LGBTQ+ community. The only good thing it's done is underscored how regressive the attitudes towards the community are.

 

[maniak]

Boycotting does achieve things but so does positive reinforcement. Radicalization often takes place when a country/nations efforts are constantly seen as "hmm but not good enough" until they get into mode of total isolation and mistrust.

Positive reinforcement is one thing, giving them (through bribery) the organization of one of the planet's most prestigious events is not positive reinforcement, it's the ultimate reward. Reward for nothing at all.

 

[Fridge chutney]

How many English boycotters are readjusting their moral compasses now?

I've heard of none. I want England to do well usually but don't care this time around.

 

[shamans]

Is the HRW lying about cases recorded just a couple of months before the WC where lgbt folks were arrested, beaten and tortured?

Probably not.

 

[Wilt]

It's at his London home. Only mentioning since this is the boycott thread.



Again, speculation.

Yes wrong thread, my error

 

[shamans]

Positive reinforcement is one thing, giving them (through bribery) the organization of one of the planet's most prestigious events is not positive reinforcement, it's the ultimate reward. Reward for nothing at all.

Will you boycott Fifa then? They're the ones accepting a bribe

 

[maniak]

Probably not.

Then this positive change you keep mentioning is not really happening.

 

[Stack]

Still not watched 1 min. Still not sure if boycotting or just no interest. Or both.

Im wondering what i will think of the next one with 48 teams. Even though NZ will qualify with ease some of the beauty of the WC qualify process will have lost its polish with so many teams.
Im starting to think mostly its because Im a grumpy old man.

 

[maniak]

Will you boycott Fifa then? They're the ones accepting a bribe

When they feck up, sure.

 

[shamans]

Then this positive change you keep mentioning is not really happening.

How is that? Why would we even need a change if these things didn't happen? The whole point of change is to stop that. You have to look at the trend and where it's going.

England killed one of the worlds greatest computer scientists, Alan Turing, a guy who won them the world war because he was homosexual. This was in 1950. This is in a country with centuries of social developments. At least give Qatar a chance of a few decades.

 

[shamans]

When they feck up, sure.

Last I recall, a bribe goes two ways. Fifa accepted it. So why wont you boycott all Fifa games?

 

[Stack]

Will you boycott Fifa then? They're the ones accepting a bribe

Thats a major reason for my opposition to this WC, it should have never been given to Qatar because of this, then add in the other issues and the argument becomes more decided for me. FIFA needs to clean its house out.

 

[Stack]

@shamans

May I ask how old you are? This is in no way an attempt to belittle you or be condescending

 

[maniak]

How is that? Why would we even need a change if these things didn't happen? The whole point of change is to stop that. You have to look at the trend and where it's going.

England killed one of the worlds greatest computer scientists, Alan Turing, a guy who won them the world war because he was homosexual. This was in 1950. This is in a country with centuries of social developments. At least give Qatar a chance of a few decades.

Sorry but what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant to this discussion.

What motivation does the qatari regime have to change things if they can do whatever they want and still gain all the international prestige that comes with hosting the wc?

The lesson is not be more open to change, the lesson is money buys anything, including turning a blind eye to human rights abuses and hundreds of dead workers.

I have no idea where you get this optimism that hosting the wc will change things.

 

[RacingClub]

I have no idea where you get this optimism that hosting the wc will change things.

Sounds like speculation personally.

 

[shamans]

Sorry but what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant to this discussion.

What motivation does the qatari regime have to change things if they can do whatever they want and still gain all the international prestige that comes with hosting the wc?

The lesson is not be more open to change, the lesson is money buys anything, including turning a blind eye to human rights abuses and hundreds of dead workers.

I have no idea where you get this optimism that hosting the wc will change things.

It's not irrelevant. This is the exact sort of broader picture thinking that needs to happen. It is relevant because today, England in general is one of the safest places for gay people to live at.

If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights, then that should show you the power of bridging gaps and giving the people a voice. You need to let societies evolve at their own pace without enforcing your practices. Not because that is immoral but it genuinely will not achieve anything.

 

[shamans]

Sounds like speculation personally.

Have things for the people of Qatar, gay or not, become worse or better since 2010?

 

[maniak]

Last I recall, a bribe goes two ways. Fifa accepted it. So why wont you boycott all Fifa games?

First of all, it's a bit weird that of the three things I highlighted, you focused on the least serious. No one would would give a shit about bribery if the workers had been treated humanely and qatar actually showed improvements in how they treat women and lgbt citizens.

You know very well it's impossible to actively boycott everything about anything. I have even watched portugal v uruguay and I spent money buying wc panini stickers to kids in my family. What you asking is absolute purity which is impossible. When there's a specific event organized by fifa where something really horrible happens, I will boycott it.

 

[shamans]

@shamans

May I ask how old you are? This is in no way an attempt to belittle you or be condescending

You may not because that's not relevant to the discussion and I can also ask you if you have ever stepped foot in the middle east, Qatar or similar cultures to understand the dynamics.

First of all, it's a bit weird that of the three things I highlighted, you focused on the least serious. No one would would give a shit about bribery if the workers had been treated humanely and qatar actually showed improvements in how they treat women and lgbt citizens.

You know very well it's impossible to actively boycott everything about anything. I have even watched portugal v uruguay and I spent money buying wc panini stickers to kids in my family. What you asking is absolute purity which is impossible. When there's a specific event organized by fifa where something really horrible happens, I will boycott it.

Please check the post I replied to again? You literally only mention the bribe and that positive reinforcement does not work in the case of a bribe. As a result, I talked about the bribe?

 

[Rood]

Only because they wanted the WC so much. All will revert back as soon as the WC ends. Nothing has changed.

Plenty has changed in Qatar already due to the World Cup, the cats out of the bag

Not going to be overnight revolution but I believe a huge global event like this can accelerate social change in the area

 

[RacingClub]

Have things for the people of Qatar, gay or not, become worse or better since 2010?

I just think it's inconsistent that you you are more than willing to indulge in speculation when it fits your agenda and quick to dismiss things as speculation when it doesn't.

Which will be reversed as soon as the WC is over.

Speculating on the future is pointless. None of us can say otherwise.

 

[maniak]

It's not irrelevant. This is the exact sort of broader picture thinking that needs to happen. It is relevant because today, England in general is one of the safest places for gay people to live at.

If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights, then that should show you the power of bridging gaps and giving the people a voice. You need to let societies evolve at their own pace without enforcing your practices. Not because that is immoral but it genuinely will not achieve anything.

It's irrelevant because the way most societies look at human right changed significantly. If qatar was holding the wc in 1950 I doubt most people would be talking about boycotts.

The world changed, for years football has been promoting the game as a way to unite people, we've had hundreds of campaigns about respecting many different groups of people and all kinds of minorities. To then give the ultimate award to a country that has shown they don't share these promoted values, was a slap in the face of all those who thought football was actually a way to improve the world.

I have no idea if these wc threads will be deleted after the wc, but we both know that if this thread keeps being updated, it will be to continue to report human rights abuses in qatar.

If your argument is that we should wait and let them improve their society at their own pace, and if they have to do it because they want to and not because of outside impositions, then they can do that without hosting the wc.