Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

Wibble

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Of course that's a huge step forward, how to do you think these things start anywhere?
1 openly Qatari gay person in total, who is only able to avoid persecution and prison by being in exile, is not progress at all.

The question here was simply about whether this World Cup will bring positive change on human rights issues in Qatar and to me it's absolutely clear that it already has and will continue to do so.
It has made zero difference so far and if you think Qatar will not instantly reverse the miniscule changes that have made as soon as the World Cup is over then you haven't operated in the region.

If you prefer to sit around dredging up irrelevant history from decades ago and ignore the facts of today then that's up to you.
Huh? Everyone is talking about what is happening now. Dr Mohamed is in exile for fear of his life right now. Thousands of workers died preparing for a WC that is still happening right now.
 
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Rood

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1 openly Qatari gay person in total, who is only able to avoid persecution and prison by being in exile, is not progress at all.
1 is obviously progress from 0. These things have to start somewhere. In fact on things like gay rights, the first one is usually the most difficult and a seminal moment.

Plus there have been huge improvements on migrant workers rights in Qatar in recent years as a direct result of the WC spotlight, these things cannot be reversed - again these are indisputable facts for anyone who wants to know the details:


Qatar: New laws to protect migrant workers are a step in the right direction
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/08/qatar-annoucement-kafala-reforms/
 
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Foxbatt

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It seems that now the criteria is working conditions and LGBTQ issues. Sure they are very important issues. Especially the working conditions for immigrants. Working conditions for anyone for that matter.
You can shout from the skies about LGBTQ in an Islamic country and they won't change the laws. The same way about alcohol. All they would do at the most is turn a blind eye just as they do now and have been doing for some time long before the WC.
So this bashing of Qatar has to stop.

But You can go and bomb a country to stone age and invade and occupy countries but that's ok. Lot of hypocrisy.
 

Abizzz

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Oh we're back to the hypocrisy of people from any place complaining about anything because someone else done something else somewhere else.

Fantastic.
 

Wibble

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You can shout from the skies about LGBTQ in an Islamic country and they won't change the laws.
Which is why the WC should not be happening there.

So this bashing of Qatar has to stop.
Why? They deserve it.

But You can go and bomb a country to stone age and invade and occupy countries but that's ok. Lot of hypocrisy.
These false accusations of hypocricy are what needs to stop. Nobody here bombed anyone and most were vocally against it.

There is no hypocricy in objecting to multiple things. So stop it.
 

Wibble

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^Construction workers, hardly a safe working condition


^Typical in Indonesia. No Safety Helm, no Boots, nothing
Which would (or should) make awarding a major sporting competition that requires mass construction impossible. Except as we seen many awarding organisations simply don't care if the bag of cash is big enough.
 
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Sky1981

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It's absolutely disgraceful that being able to provide workers with a decent standard of living is not achievable. Rampant capitalism is a cancer that will end this world.

In the UK and other western nations, workers were used as fodder by businesses. Paid just enough to keep you alive so you could still work. Once those workers stood up and said no more they ended up with the rights and privileges they have today (still nothing to write home about). But capitalism needs fodder to feed the machine so when the workers in the west stood up for themselves, the capitalists turned to the the east to seek out a new workforce that they can exploit. Once that workforce unionise and demand rights they move on to the next place and so on.

Eventually they will run out of people to exploit. At which point the the whole system come tumbling down.
I'll give you a simple calculations from my own working experiences.

My company used to do orders for a Western Brand, guess how much they're paying for a T-shirt, around 4.50 USD FOB Delivered to their warehouse (Inc. Tax, fabric, management, custom, labors, etc)

The minimum wage requirement for 1 people per day in Indonesia is 9 USD, the labour cost allocations for a T-shirt is around say 0.50 USD.

Which means 1 Indonesian Sewers have to sew 18 pcs of T-shirt per person, per day just to cover his own salary.

It's close to humanly impossible to sew more than 18 pcs T-Shirt per person / day, and that's assuming no feck up.

.


So.. anything more than 9 USD / month means the factory would have to shut down
 
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Stack

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It seems that now the criteria is working conditions and LGBTQ issues. Sure they are very important issues. Especially the working conditions for immigrants. Working conditions for anyone for that matter.
You can shout from the skies about LGBTQ in an Islamic country and they won't change the laws. The same way about alcohol. All they would do at the most is turn a blind eye just as they do now and have been doing for some time long before the WC.
So this bashing of Qatar has to stop.

But You can go and bomb a country to stone age and invade and occupy countries but that's ok. Lot of hypocrisy.
Well if you want to run a global game thats always pushing the inclusivity message then dont give it to countries that arent inclusive.
FIFA screwed up badly.

The same injustices in basic human rights that South African apartheid had all those years ago are why 28 African countries boycotted the Olympics because of New Zealands involvement.
Were those 28 African countries wrong then??

No they werent and change happened much much faster because of those African countries efforts.
 

Kopral Jono

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^Construction workers, hardly a safe working condition


^Typical in Indonesia. No Safety Helm, no Boots, nothing


^Guess which place this is?
I never thought I'd see the day that kuli Jawa living conditions are being highlighted in this forum.
 

OldSchoolManc

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It's absolutely disgraceful that being able to provide workers with a decent standard of living is not achievable. Rampant capitalism is a cancer that will end this world.

In the UK and other western nations, workers were used as fodder by businesses. Paid just enough to keep you alive so you could still work. Once those workers stood up and said no more they ended up with the rights and privileges they have today (still nothing to write home about). But capitalism needs fodder to feed the machine so when the workers in the west stood up for themselves, the capitalists turned to the the east to seek out a new workforce that they can exploit. Once that workforce unionise and demand rights they move on to the next place and so on.

Eventually they will run out of people to exploit. At which point the the whole system come tumbling down.
Brilliant post. Capitalism needs to be brought under control until poorer nations have either caught up or have stopped being exploited.
 

stevoc

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1 is obviously progress from 0. These things have to start somewhere. In fact on things like gay rights, the first one is usually the most difficult and a seminal moment.

Plus there have been huge improvements on migrant workers rights in Qatar in recent years as a direct result of the WC spotlight, these things cannot be reversed - again these are indisputable facts for anyone who wants to know the details:


Qatar: New laws to protect migrant workers are a step in the right direction
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/08/qatar-annoucement-kafala-reforms/
How so?

Are you saying that the Emir of Qatar wouldn't have the power to roll back these reforms the day after the World Cup has ended?

And a quick Google shows that Amnesty have reported that these changes haven't even been implemented fully yet.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...d-compensation-still-owed-as-world-cup-looms/
 
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Foxbatt

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Well if you want to run a global game thats always pushing the inclusivity message then dont give it to countries that arent inclusive.
FIFA screwed up badly.

The same injustices in basic human rights that South African apartheid had all those years ago are why 28 African countries boycotted the Olympics because of New Zealands involvement.
Were those 28 African countries wrong then??

No they werent and change happened much much faster because of those African countries efforts.
Nope. I am saying that this should not be the only criteria. Invading and bombing countries should be included too.
 

stevoc

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Nope. I am saying that this should not be the only criteria. Invading and bombing countries should be included too.
That's a great discussion to have if the World Cup is about to be hosted or is currently being hosted in a country that is invading/bombing another country.
 

Rood

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How so?

Are you saying that the Emir of Qatar wouldn't have the power to roll back these reforms the day after the World Cup has ended?

And a quick Google shows that Amnesty have reported that these changes haven't even been implemented fully yet.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...d-compensation-still-owed-as-world-cup-looms/
I'm saying that not only will he not roll back, that things will continue to get better

Even that report you post notes that several things have improved for workers, but that more needs to be done - which is absolutely true on both counts

And remember these reports come from Amnesty International themselves, yet we have people here who refuse to accept that the World Cup spotlight has improved working conditions in Qatar
 

stevoc

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I'm saying that not only will he not roll back, that things will continue to get better

Even that report you post notes that several things have improved for workers, but that more needs to be done - which is absolutely true on both counts

And remember these reports come from Amnesty International themselves, yet we have people here who refuse to accept that the World Cup spotlight has improved working conditions in Qatar
Well I admire your optimism and hope you are correct but we'll have to see what actually happens once the WC is over and the world's eyes are no longer on Qatar.

The report also shows that the new laws haven't been fully implemented yet which is not overly encouraging for the future if they couldn't even fully implement the reforms despite them coming into affect back in 2020.
 

Rood

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Well I admire your optimism and hope you are correct but we'll have to see what actually happens once the WC is over and the world's eyes are no longer on Qatar.

The report also shows that the new laws haven't been fully implemented yet which is not overly encouraging for the future if they couldn't even fully implement the reforms despite them coming into affect back in 2020.
Like I said, clearly a lot more needs to be done but it's about the direction of travel and it's absolutely clear that things are moving in the right direction on human rights due to the World Cup

Here is another opinion from the International Trade Union Confederation:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...credible-progress-in-labour-rights-union-head

"We said in 2015 there should be no World Cup without workers' rights," she told AFP. "I can honestly say now that my advice to fans is go to the World Cup, have fun."
 

Foxbatt

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That's a great discussion to have if the World Cup is about to be hosted or is currently being hosted in a country that is invading/bombing another country.
It's about to. Didn't you know that USA bombed Iraq to the stone age and has a huge military there? The people responsible or voted for it are still in the government of USA. In fact one of them who voted is the current president. They are also occupying parts of Syria still.
 

2mufc0

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From what I've reportedly seen. The working condition is much better than in my Country. We're still building buildings with bamboo scaffolding at times, and dont mention helmets.. some of them arent even wearing shoes at times.

And the accomodation they provided is much better housing than the majority of our worker's own house.

Countries like Singapore like to used South Asian (Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, etc) for construction workers. You should see their working condition and compare it to Qatar. You should also compare their working condition back home to Qatar.

Some of the immigrants choose to not going back and try for a better living, even illegally since whatever they're dealt with in Qatar usually is still much better than back home.

Indonesia has been exporting female workforce to become domestic helper... Not that i support this... But they're getting 10x their salary back home, and most would have come back bloody rich for their standard. Buying a house and cars and lands back in the village of the one people working in Middle East was quite normal.
Absolutely. Ever since the whole Qatar issue on migrant workers kicked off I spoke to about a dozen extended relatives I have in South Asia who work or have worked in the ME. One of them hated it so much he came back after 6 months, which didn't go down to well with his family due to the amount they paid to get him over there. Others toiled away while the ones that had a bit more about them managed to move onto better/comfortable jobs. But the majority have no regrets due to being lifted out of poverty, they have new /refurbished homes with a car, able to feed their families and able to send their kids to college. Does this make working poor working conditions OK? Absolutely not, esp for a rich country like Qatar, but this is not the way capitalism works and wholesale systematic changes are needed accross the globe. But the sad truth is these working conditions /pay are a lot better than they would get back home.

Life is also difficult for unskilled migrant workers in the west too, one of my cousins managed to get to Spain but works 12 hours in a day in a convinience store in Barcelona and shares a 2 bed flat with 7 other guys. But he will continue to do it as his family is being lifted out of poverty.

Capitalism only benefits those with power and money, as long as there is such a massive wealth disparity between countries worker exploitation will continue. A lot of people in wealthy countries also seem oblivious/ignorant or simply don't care on why they are able to buy a smartphone so cheaply or why their clothing is so cheap. And this includes me, but this is the world we are born into and there doesn't seem to be an appetite for actual change.

There is also a big issue with brain/talent drain from poorer countries, where the most educated and brightest people usually move to the west for financial reasons. My uncle, a brilliant educated man who had a lot to offer his home country was able to migrate to Australia on the points system which specifically targets skilled workers, I don't really blame him he's doing really well for himself now. But you can imagine the impact this has on developing countries.

In most western countries economic migrants are seen as the scum of the earth and elections are literally won on the party who can keep out the most immigrants. I hope the western media/people genuinely care about migrants as they have seemed to have shown regarding Qatar and change their rhetoric aroud them in their own countries. But I doubt they genuinely care.
 

Giggsyking

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That can’t be real?!
If it is then Sunak is even more of a money is more important than morals gobshite than I thought was possible.
So only when he came praising Qatar you realised that money is more important than morals for the British government?
Not for the past 200 years history of this country?
:lol:
 

kouroux

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Well if you want to run a global game thats always pushing the inclusivity message then dont give it to countries that arent inclusive.
FIFA screwed up badly.

The same injustices in basic human rights that South African apartheid had all those years ago are why 28 African countries boycotted the Olympics because of New Zealands involvement.
Were those 28 African countries wrong then??

No they werent and change happened much much faster because of those African countries efforts.
FIFA didn't screw up, it's always been about PR. The head honchos don't care about any real causes in the world except the one that doesn't interfere with their money or better yet, one that can them richer.
 

Foxbatt

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Absolutely. Ever since the whole Qatar issue on migrant workers kicked off I spoke to about a dozen extended relatives I have in South Asia who work or have worked in the ME. One of them hated it so much he came back after 6 months, which didn't go down to well with his family due to the amount they paid to get him over there. Others toiled away while the ones that had a bit more about them managed to move onto better/comfortable jobs. But the majority have no regrets due to being lifted out of poverty, they have new /refurbished homes with a car, able to feed their families and able to send their kids to college. Does this make working poor working conditions OK? Absolutely not, esp for a rich country like Qatar, but this is not the way capitalism works and wholesale systematic changes are needed accross the globe. But the sad truth is these working conditions /pay are a lot better than they would get back home.

Life is also difficult for unskilled migrant workers in the west too, one of my cousins managed to get to Spain but works 12 hours in a day in a convinience store in Barcelona and shares a 2 bed flat with 7 other guys. But he will continue to do it as his family is being lifted out of poverty.

Capitalism only benefits those with power and money, as long as there is such a massive wealth disparity between countries worker exploitation will continue. A lot of people in wealthy countries also seem oblivious/ignorant or simply don't care on why they are able to buy a smartphone so cheaply or why their clothing is so cheap. And this includes me, but this is the world we are born into and there doesn't seem to be an appetite for actual change.

There is also a big issue with brain/talent drain from poorer countries, where the most educated and brightest people usually move to the west for financial reasons. My uncle, a brilliant educated man who had a lot to offer his home country was able to migrate to Australia on the points system which specifically targets skilled workers, I don't really blame him he's doing really well for himself now. But you can imagine the impact this has on developing countries.

In most western countries economic migrants are seen as the scum of the earth and elections are literally won on the party who can keep out the most immigrants. I hope the western media/people genuinely care about migrants as they have seemed to have shown regarding Qatar and change their rhetoric aroud them in their own countries. But I doubt they genuinely care.
Well put. The people in the west mostly don't care about what their own governments and countries are doing so long as it doesn't effect them.
 

stevoc

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Like I said, clearly a lot more needs to be done but it's about the direction of travel and it's absolutely clear that things are moving in the right direction on human rights due to the World Cup

Here is another opinion from the International Trade Union Confederation:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...credible-progress-in-labour-rights-union-head

"We said in 2015 there should be no World Cup without workers' rights," she told AFP. "I can honestly say now that my advice to fans is go to the World Cup, have fun."
Agreed mate let's hope that trajectory continues once the World Cup is over.
 

stevoc

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It's about to. Didn't you know that USA bombed Iraq to the stone age and has a huge military there? The people responsible or voted for it are still in the government of USA. In fact one of them who voted is the current president. They are also occupying parts of Syria still.
I'm sure everyone is aware of where the next World Cup is and the Iraq invasion mate and I'm sure there's an appropriate thread to discuss both that WC and the 2003 invasion.

In the last 24 hours you've posted about Iraq in a thread dedicated to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and now another about the problematic issues surrounding Qatar who are currently hosting the world cup.

You know what that is don't you?
 
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Foxbatt

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I'm sure everyone is aware of where the next World Cup is and the Iraq invasion mate and I'm sure there's an appropriate thread to discuss both that WC and the 2003 invasion.

In the last 24 hours you've posted about Iraq in a thread dedicated to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and now another about the problematic issues surrounding Qatar who are currebtly hosting the world cup.

You know what that is don't you?
That's a great discussion to have if the World Cup is about to be hosted or is currently being hosted in a country that is invading/bombing another country..

Isn't that what you said? The. next host is the USA along with Mexico and Canada. It has been awarded already.
 

MUnchies

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I assume you read my other posts, where I say the shit treatment of migrant workers and lgbt community are my main problem with this wc, right? Bribery is just the bonus topping in this shit cake.
So why not boycott Fifa, since they obviously are in favor of Qatar? If it wasn't Fifa the world cup wo'n't be there and I bet this thread have happened.
 

maniak

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So why not boycott Fifa, since they obviously are in favor of Qatar? If it wasn't Fifa the world cup wo'n't be there and I bet this thread have happened.
Mate, I already said I would boycott them when they feck up, which is the case in qatar. What are you on about?
 

Pickle85

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So are you saying Fifa hasn't fecked up at all?
Are you broken? The poster literally just said 'I would boycott them when they feck up, which is the case in qatar' and then you ask whether the poster is saying Fifa hasn't fecked up at all...
 

MUnchies

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Are you broken? The poster literally just said 'I would boycott them when they feck up, which is the case in qatar' and then you ask whether the poster is saying Fifa hasn't fecked up at all...
But the poster hasn’t boycotted FIFA who have already fecked up by taking brides from Qatar.

Read what you wrote again. Stupid post

“I WOULD” WHEN” key worlds here.
FIFA has already fecked up.
 

RacingClub

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The poster literally just said 'I would boycott them when they feck up, which is the case in qatar' and then you ask whether the poster is saying Fifa hasn't fecked up at all...
What I don't really understand is that FIFA has (rightly) come under tonnes of criticism for their decision to award Qatar with the World Cup.

Everybody acknowledges that they are a corrupt organization who couldn't give a toss about human rights violations etc and will go wherever they can make the most money.

You can literally say anything you like about FIFA and nobody will jump to their defense.

I'm struggling to think of a good thing that anyone has ever said about FIFA (that wasn't FIFA PR) to be honest.

The difference between FIFA and Qatar (their partners in this edition) is that one side has a bunch of loyal defenders and the other doesn't which is why most of this conversation centers around the criticism of (and defence of) Qatar.
 

Pickle85

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But the poster hasn’t boycotted FIFA who have already fecked up by taking brides from Qatar.

Read what you wrote again. Stupid post

“I WOULD” WHEN” key worlds here.
FIFA has already fecked up.
Unless I'm wrong, @maniak is boycotting as a result of Qatari world cup. That's certainly what I took away from their last message.