Irish border issue aside the customs union is the worst of all worlds.
Thats talking about a realistic one of course, not Corbyn's fantasy version.
Thats talking about a realistic one of course, not Corbyn's fantasy version.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I don't know guys. I can't help but have a bad taste about the precedents we are setting.
If I voted again (if ever, considering I'm so politically crushed by this shitshow), I could never be sure that my vote would mean anything anymore.
If I voted again (if ever, considering I'm so politically crushed by this shitshow), I could never be sure that my vote would mean anything anymore.
If the customs union really means the customs union and not some version where the UK think they can do their own trade deals. A customs union alone doesn't solve the Irish problem. And the referendum doesn't mention remaining. After that the government have to agree to actually adopt the amendments.
Just don't vote for the wrong thing then your vote will matter simples.
Not the government, parliament.
Yes I know, that's what I'm saying
The Referendum question would be agreed upon afterwards and no reason why cannot include remain.
This parliament ie this government (they're not binding)
Everyone has different opinions unfortunately. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that.
Heard one of the labour MP's say on BBC that they would be ready to let May's version pass if it was allowed to go through another referendum , but she was convinced that remain would be an option in that case. I just can't see it happening . I think the only way another referendum happens is if remain is completely off the table .
This is all so complicated though, I had this argument recently that someone had earlier on this page that it kind of makes a joke of democracy if you now change the decision to leave or have another referendum. You just can't say that it was based on lies and stuff because all elections are based on that as well . Government or parliament's inability to get this through shouldn't be used to have another referendum because it sets a wrong precedent
This is all so complicated though, I had this argument recently that someone had earlier on this page that it kind of makes a joke of democracy if you now change the decision to leave or have another referendum. You just can't say that it was based on lies and stuff because all elections are based on that as well . Government or parliament's inability to get this through shouldn't be used to have another referendum because it sets a wrong precedent
Did you read my earlier post, the election was not fair because the Leave side broke rules. The electoral landscape has changed from 2016, people can change their mind, its called Democracy! Some younger people can now vote, some older people have died and some people have changed their mind. It has been nearly 3 years of this shitshow. People now have more information to base their decision on rather than the lies that were told in 2016.
The difficult decision would be to have the courage of their convictions, revoke Article 50 and face down the backlash.
I mean, we've already been told that had this been a legally binding referendum, the results would have been challenged due to illegality. Its status as being advisory is the only thing that's stopped that from happening. The entire process, from the nature of the question, to the conduct of the Leave campaign, to the government's negotiation, has been disastrous. Leave voters were given the option to determine the nature of Brexit in 2017 with the General Election, arguably: in a parliament democracy if the government can't deliver what you want, your only real recourse is to vote them out at the next election. We shouldn't voluntarily destroy our economy because the government cannot deliver a version of Brexit they were already informed was impossible in 2016.
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But there's a sizeable proportion who feel the opposite (at least 5 million online and 1 million on the streets of London), so trust will be lost whatever happens.
Then if you throw in the provable lies that the the Leave campaign peddled in order to win the Referendum, I'm not sure there are many who are going to have faith in politics regardless of the outcome. It's not so much a risk, as you claim but an inevitability.
And let's not forget all the kids who weren't allowed to vote at all, despite the Brexit vote inordinately affecting them. There's going to be a loss of trust in Democratic institutions for decades to come. Probably more so than if we simply left. The future is already aguably more fecked than the present.
Either way, British politics is going to be hobbled. We'd might as well keep our economy if we can.
Sure, we can vote again. But the issue is that the result of the first referendum was never implemented and may never have the chance to be implemented. We need to implement that result BEFORE a second vote takes place. Like I said, if we leave and then vote to come back in later, absolutely no problem with that.
Not gonna go into what was illegal or what not in term of campaigning, at the end of the day we have to take responsibility for the X we put on the paper.
Exactly, time to call the 2016 vote out for what it was, illegal but everyone is too scared to do so to upset the people who voted brexit instead of communiating the message to them about how they would be impacted. This is where Labour especially have failed.
Yes, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of utterly destroying the country's economy. If MP's can't act like adults and refuse to opt for a viable Brexit model (as has been the case here) then the only options are to revoke or vote again.
You're conflating two things. If parliament votes for something, it doesn't matter if it had government support or not.
My personal opinion is the Leave campaign openly lied to the public on major campaign issues renders the whole vote meaningless. It's a dangerous precedent to set that politicians can brashly exaggerate and lie to the public and for their to be no consequences. Politicians that so brashly lie to the public should be removed altogether from politics, it's a farce that they can immediately rescind key issues hours after the result is called. It's ridiculous that these people are then put in the Government. It's frankly disgraceful.
That only works for things that work both ways. There's genuinely no benefits for your everyday person to brexit. Only negatives. Any real potential benefits brexiters were told they could get have been categorically proven to be false. So anyone who is still really voting for it has to either be just stubborn or actively benefitting from it financially at the expense of the rest of the country.
Part of the reason there'd be backlash is because those who support EU membership have typically been spineless throughout the years in advocating for it. I'll agree that there are major problems with the EU that need addressed, but said problems can be addressed without capitulating to the whims of mentalist Eurosceptics. Even the most pro-European governments of the last generation or so have been fairly complicit in this though.
I'm sorry but thats absolute nonense. What are you trying to implement? The ballot paper said leave but it was never as simple as binary decision. Leave how? What terms? The Leave campaign left things vague deliberatly because once people knew the details as they do now, they wouldn't vote for it. You can't just leave and come back later, this is not a game. Why should people suffer. A good democracy can change its mind.
The problem is no one goes into the detail of what was illegal, just bury their head in the sand.
As I added afterwards the amendments are non binding
I still believe there are leave options that does not necessitate immediate economic destruction, with the PM's deal being one of them.
Speaking of things that were non-binding...
Yes quite.Speaking of things that were non-binding...
Agree, alot of the eurosceptics have personal gains from Brexit, espcially Rees Mogg. People need to wake up and smell the coffee. This establishment bullshit they have been running is a smokescreen. We need a clear leader and group to ask these questions and get to the bottom of it but we have none of that in Parliament.
“I love democracy” - Sheev Palpatine
But her deal has already been rejected. On multiple occasions. By parliament. The very sovereign thing Brexiteers wanted to protect. If her deal can be reconsidered on several occasions until people finally submit to it, why can't the same principle be allowed to the Brexit vote itself? Crucial to Brexit (when it was voted for) was the idea that our MP's would throughout the process secure an exit which was either beneficial to the country, or which mitigated its worst excesses. They have refused to do that.
These aren't, but all you need to do is amend the government's bill. If there's a majority for it in the indicative votes process, there's almost certainly a majority then.
Now as it happens I still don't think there's a majority for it so this is moot
but point is, it doesn't matter if the government agrees with it.This is largely the problem - the only group who've consistently advocated for Europe are the SNP. Everyone else has either been spineless, placating, or isn't all that fond of the EU at all and switches up their stance on a whim.
Tbf so has everything else and Corbyn leads 3-2 on that.
True, hence why it's difficult to see cancelling Brexit now as any less respectful than any of the other options we've rejected. Same idea, if you value parliament at all. As Brexiteers claim to do...
But the two options that got the most votes today could reach a majority if everyone voted.
Apparently democracy nowadays is to lie, cheat and misinform the general public and hope you win out. Democracy is dead in this country.
As I mentioned, how you leave and in what manner can be debated and presented back to the people for the final confirmation, but you have to leave.
Yes that's another step, and also think there's not a majority. But don't get me wrong, if there's a way of stopping Brexit, stop it.These aren't, but all you need to do is amend the government's bill. If there's a majority for it in the indicative votes process, there's almost certainly a majority then.
Now as it happens I still don't think there's a majority for it so this is moot
The public are easily fooled, they used Brexit as a protest vote but didn't realise they would hurt the most. They still don't to this day.