Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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What a weird thing to claim. How does the EU exploit Africa? Aren’t they actually quite generous offering tariff free trade on the ‘anything but arms’ policy which effects Africa. Maybe he can come back and elaborate.
Unless there’s something else which there might well be!
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i just remembered, i think it was nick, though i might be confused with someone else arguing (early 2016) that brexit would be good for the electoral chances of labour.
Interesting, thanks for the links.
yeah I knew about the crisis with Libya but the whole milk thing was quite surprising.
The EU is not really a good thing for Africa, it is ultimately a closed elite club which aims to protect its members and its population vs other members and populations.
The fantasy of course is that a UK outside of the EU wouldn't do the same. It was still doing the same in the EU and will continue to do the same outside of the EU too. Arguably more so considering they've just fused Dfid into the foreign office.
The fantasy of course is that a UK outside of the EU wouldn't do the same. It was still doing the same in the EU and will continue to do the same outside of the EU too. Arguably more so considering they've just fused Dfid into the foreign office.
Yeah I don't think anyone is in denial that the EU is there to protect its own interests above all others and has been exploitative of poorer nations, just the idea that the UK wouldn't do that if "freed" from the shackles of the EU is hilarious.
I don't think anyone would ever argue the EU was a perfect institution. Although that argument could hardly be made in the awful referendum debate without being latched on as proof why we should leave, but unfortunately, the UK was aligned with its more regressive elements and when it lost in debates it was because it was pushing to make things worse.
I'm hindsight maybe the world would be better off if the UK became a parochial pariah island destroying itself rather than trying to bring everyone down with it.
No. #Scottyfrommarketing and his bunch of evil clowns are almost mirror image of Bojo and his bunch of evil clowns. Although #Scottyfrommarketing is slightly less incompetent. Which is stunning given how incompetent he is.
I wouldn't piss on any of them if their hair was on fire.
You haven't obviously read very much, especially posts on here!
No trade existed before the EU, nobody cared about anything or anyone in Europe (or the rest of the world) before the EU, nobody was able to travel anywhere in Europe before the EU, the world without the EU will go to hell in a handcart.
A bit like top flight football, nothing really existed before the PL.
Don't know how I managed the thirty or so years of my life without the EU, I must have been living in a dream world
And the award for straw man argument of the week goes to.... maticmaker!
Thanks, glad I won something on here at last!And the award for straw man argument of the week goes to.... maticmaker!
I didn't realise you were that old. I don't remember the 40s or 50s but do remember the 60s and 70s. Uk joined EFTA in 1960 and were desperate to join the EC (please don't say it's different).
They were in deep sh!t then and with the way the world works now they are going to be in it a lot deeper now.
Oddly it was quicker to ship goods to and from Australia to the UK in the 1890s than now (excluding planes naturally but you can't ship much in planes and it's much more expensive).
I have covered this subject several times over the past four years but no-one was listening.
Haha! Been a long time coming!Thanks, glad I won something on here at last!
Paul fantastic, you do admit there was life before the EU....wow!
But you are right of course, trading (around the world) will all go 'tits up' when the UK and the EU fail to reach an agreement before the end of this year.
In view of your persistent coverage of this matter on Red Cafe (where apparently no one is listening) then perhaps we should now make arrangements for one of those guys with the sandwich boards to parade up and down every high street in Europe with the slogan " EU and UK fail to agree....the End is Nigh!"
Trouble is it's not the 1850s or even the1950s and the UK no longer has an empire.
Bit late for that.
Could have hoped that people would have understood how international trade works before voting to wreck the UK's part in it.
Trading around the world won't go tits up , the EU will take a hit but they still have all the agreements with the EU27 all all the other countries they have agreements with. At least the UK have an agreement with the Faeroe Islands (or do they?)
You do realise how quoting that one sentence out of context and ignoring the second half sums up the point perfectly, don't you?
Don't think that was a main issue for many on the leave side, its why 'project fear' didn't work. Lots of changes around the world in trade matters will now have to be made because of Covid as well as Brexit , speed will be of the essence in many cases e.g. responding to emergencies, and it will be a case of first up best dressed, and don't forget the EU need 27 countries to agree on new deals/or how to amend existing deals (Covid issues) that will make the 'super-tanker' nature of the EU agreement processes more of a liability, what's the betting on the need to open up the majority voting issues?.
The UK will no doubt in some areas of trade seek to operate as an off-shore 'stack it high sell it cheap' player, depends on how much we can get away with. The UK has no Empire, but it does have links through the Commonwealth, which may well come to the fore, especially if the UK offers Commonwealth countries a better deal than the EU offers, who knows, certainly things won't be dull. The issue for the EU will be when existing trade deals come up for renewal, suspect Boris's plan is to play the long game and blame Covid in the short term for any losses.
He might just get away with it!
I don't think many people argue that the EU is perfect as such, though in this very polarised debate, you do end up with people claiming wild things. There was one that particularly irked me previously on here regarding the rights of non Europeans to work in an EU country compared to an EU citizen but let's not get back into that now.
But the second paragraph... I mean really? I know this is generally an emotive topic, I certainly spent a good amount of time after the vote metaphorically cutting my wrists and pretty much automatically despising anyone who happened to tell me they voted leave. And I know it's generally fashionable on here to essentially make out the UK as being amongst the worst of the worst. But the UK is still one of the most diverse countries in Europe and generally one of the most open societies in the world. There's a long list of countries I'd put before the UK if we're gonna be making international pariahs, including some of the EU's remaining member States.
I'm sure that's exactly what Boris and his corrupt cronies are planning right now and sadly, I think they're more than likely to get away with it.
Any economic problems will be covered up on a covid/ 'belligerent' EU excuses blanket and I'm sure many people will lap it up.
Wow. Is this the new project bullshit?
Excuses in early isn’t it, it’s just a coincidence that everyone predicted brexit will be a disaster and it will be a ... Errm disaster.
We're still trying to find out what the issue was with the leave side, and keep going round in circles trying to find out the reason(s) were. Apparently it's not foreigners, it's not sovereignty (always had it), wasn't unnamed bureaucrats ('leave voters don't understand how it works) not about borders, they always had control and not about trade, probably forgotten a few other imaginary issues, oh yes a measly 8bn a year to save many more billions.
All countries have Covid to face. Most countries are in a group or market of countries, including most or even all Commonwealth countries. Just the UK are on their own. Of course Covid is going to affect every country and for an indeterminate period of time but how does that change how countries are going to trade.
The still over-riding thing which still isn't being taken seriously enough is the proximity of the UK's biggest trading partners, the EU.
It will be taken seriously finally next year.
If the narrative to persuade the leave voters to vote to leave had been the following do you think the vote would still have been to leave:
We will rip up all trade agreements and have to start from scratch with every country in the world which wiill probably take many years.
We will severely disrupt all supply lines and risk many countries uprooting from the UK.
You will not be able to live and work in the EU as you have been or could have.
The number of foreigners will still increase but they'll be a bit more diverse in origin.
A border will be installed within our country and export documentation will be required to be able to receive from and deliver to that part of the country.
We abandon current standards and replace them with yet to be decided standards.
The value of our currency will greatly diminish.
There will be much more travel restrictions , holidays will become much more expensive as will your mobile phone bill.
Etc...
But you will now be able to buy 200 cigarettes at duty free rates.
Yes I know, they'd still vote for the duty free.
We are of course open and diverse but when there's a sizeable minority that hate that diversity and the same people are the strongest brexiteers who seemingly 'won' it's hard not to feel hatred back. Are we the worst? Of course not but the strong reaction is because lots of us thought we as a society were much better than the likes of racist Hungary.
I mean you had people on the Daily Mail website yesterday laughing at a refugee child drowning and wishing more would, these people 'won'. Then they celebrated at refugees being attacked. The amount of people willing to express such views is increasing and i can't foresee it not increasing further.
The issue is some see being pleasant/civil and not offending anyone as more important than weeding out such extremism. That might make ones immediate world more pleasant but it also gives room for such hateful views to become more mainstream.
Bit of rant that's probably nothing to do with your point but there you go
I'm just not at all convinced the UK's voice in international debates is a voice for good.
Of course I'd like Britain to be a positive force, and I think you're right that elements of our society mean we should be, but that hadn't been our role in the EU for some time (as the electorate continuously sent dickheads to disrupt it) and I don't think it's our role on the global stage with who the electorate decided they want to represent them.
If those trends continue, I do genuinely think it's better of for Britain to isolate itself and weaken its own interests in a ill fated fit of imperial nostalgia than to continue to work with the institutions that give it a disproportionately large role in the modern world.
But I particularly had environmentalism in mind, on the whole I don't think Britain's record has been terrible (which is to say that it has been absolutely woeful, but looks comparatively ok because everyones has been), but Brexit is overtly being used as an excuse to rip up any of the successes we've won on that front. With those people in charge, the EU is better off forming its own environmental policies without our influence and letting the UK feck itself up.
Answered your own question Paul....but of course you knew the answer all the time!
There was a myriad of reasons for voting leave, most were promising 'a change' of some kind, but there was only one reason for voting remain that meant 'no change' stay as you are.
Clearly more people wanted to change than didn't and the eventual 'leave/remain' map of the country told us why, of course the changes that do come wont suit everyone, some wont suit anybody.
Covid and its aftermath is a key feature, those countries that respond most effectively (and probably quickly) whether its changing the lifestyles of its populace, ways of working, ways to re-jig their economy, to lower costs, eliminate wastage, increase productivity etc. will benefit. Most crucially those countries 'that seize the day' will lead off. The EU currently has a cumbersome process to agree, sometimes the smallest of changes across 27 countries, this will hold it back.
Cobblers.
The UK's current process to agree (England tells the other 3 nations what to do and pretend there's agreement) is leading to increasing resentment in our 2 most likely breakaway provinces. The EU has never particularly been a barrier in how countries respond to major threats. The responses of, for instance, Greece, Hungary, Germany, Italy, Sweden have been wildly different through the financial crash, the migration of peoples across the Mediterranean and Covid. Despite what some think, there is no unified EU approach to everything, nor does the EU really force its member states to act in a unified way.
As for the rejigging of things post Covid, this may be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that, so far, the Tories seem to very much want things to go back to normal and don't seem keen (or competent) to enact large scale change, other than to give large contracts to their mates. There's been no big push from them to work from home, in fact they're encouraging people to go back. We're looking to make building much quicker and seemingly the head of our environment agency....thinks we're too strict with our environmental standards. To say this doesn't inspire confidence is an understatement.
The UK's voice in international debates is, generally, no more a voice for good or bad than the voices of the USA, China, Russia, Japan, the EU or individual large member states within the EU. I say this as someone from the 'global south', with intimate ties still there and having worked in humanitarian medicine in the past. Most of these blocs/ countries generally have their own interests at heart when it comes to international projects. The UK is no different, though I would say we generally get involved a lot worldwide, despite the often quite self flagellatory approach on here.
If you're coming at it from an environmentalist point of view, you're correct that we have been both crap (as everyone else has been) and also good (in the sense that we are still better than almost everyone else). The environmental protection index (EPI) has us at 4th in the world, which kind of suggests we've probably gone above and beyond what is average in the EU. Not only this but the UK has only consistently risen in these rankings since they first began. I don't know why the EU would listen to us at all on environmental policy once we've left to be honest, whether our record ends up becoming better or worse than theirs, and rightly so as a country which is no longer a member.
I think people are confusing some of the most extreme elements of the Brexit debate (Francois/ Farage et al), especially during a heated time when they are trying to push their view at what they define as a vital time for them, with the general UK approach, both to international relations and humanitarian work. Its also important to mention a significant minority of non-white British voted for Brexit and therefore, as much as it may comfort us, I don't think it is possible to condense the Leave reasons as a fit of imperial nostalgia. Difficult to imagine there was too much imperial nostalgia for Indian or Caribbean Brits yet a good number of them voted for leave too.
Basically, this is a very long winded way of saying. I actually completely get where you're coming from.
As I said, I spent a good amount of time post the referendum, with, I'm ashamed to say, pretty much genuine hatred for the 'other side', for the first time in a British election. I hated being here and what the vote represented for me. But I think it is important to still keep sight of the bigger picture. Which is that when it comes to LGBT rights, women's rights, racial diversity, religious diversity (and freedom for both), environmental protections and, yes, even net migration, we are nearer the top in Europe than we are to the bottom. Yes we should always do more and also make sure things aren't rolled back! But I think we need to be careful to not spiral and perhaps overegg how bad the situation may actually be.For whatever reason anyone voted leave and they wanted change, if you vote for change I would expect most people to vote for something better, not worse and the only way they could convince people to vote leave was to lie to them because they know that most people will believe whatever is drummed into them without thinking and checking to see if what they are being told is at least vaguely truthful.
No-one says the EU is perfect and if there was a way of improving it then I would expect most people would be all for it.
I have no idea , beyond some fantasy, how leaving the EU s going to improve anyone's life other than a few tax dodgers.
Covid wasn't an issue until the last year and each country's response in the EU is different, even in each town or region's response within a country is different.
As I've said many times I live in France, with a French way of life, with french laws , which happens to fortunately be in the EU, not that I live in the EU with all EU laws and a EU way of life and happen to live in a region called France.
Ask the question to a leaver : who makes the laws in France?
Rant away! Its cathartic.We are of course open and diverse but when there's a sizeable minority that hate that diversity and the same people are the strongest brexiteers who seemingly 'won' it's hard not to feel hatred back. Are we the worst? Of course not but the strong reaction is because lots of us thought we as a society were much better than the likes of racist Hungary.
I mean you had people on the Daily Mail website yesterday laughing at a refugee child drowning and wishing more would, these people 'won'. Then they celebrated at refugees being attacked. The amount of people willing to express such views is increasing and i can't foresee it not increasing further.
The issue is some see being pleasant/civil and not offending anyone as more important than weeding out such extremism. That might make ones immediate world more pleasant but it also gives room for such hateful views to become more mainstream.
Bit of rant that's probably nothing to do with your point but there you go
I of course agree. I have spoken at length on this board about racism, including after Brexit. However, I can't think of a single country in the world where there isn't a sizeable minority that hates diversity. In some cases, this hatred of diversity is against a group that is far more historically embedded than the more recent large scale diversity of the UK too. What we see across Europe and even the world in many places is a kickback against this diversity and increasingly aggressive and narrow minded leaders representing their constituents. This isn't confined to the UK, nor is it confined to countries we may not want to compare ourselves to. I hope though this is a short term deviation from a longer term consistent move towards more and more diversity.
I agree that we should hold ourselves to higher standards than other countries.
I think the rest of the stuff was very much unrelated to my post but like I said, definitely a good thing to rant and get it all out.
People voted to leave because they were told that the "changes" were "oven ready". They were sold a load of lies.
I also don't see how the UK is going to do better than other EU countries post-Covid and "seize the day" (oh god do we have anything other than slogans nowadays?!) since our Covid response has shown that not only are we incompetent as a nation we can't even get the home nations to come together with a joint decision. It's like federal law except the total idiots in Westminster can override all of it with their bullshit.
Just like the major budget contributor countries in the EU tell the other countries what to do (and pretend there is agreement) is likely to lead to more resentment or even more '..exits' from EU too!
No it wasn't, but it is now and depending on how successful, or not, small scale/local responses are to Covid will determine whether a return to mass lockdowns etc. occur. Either way the post Covid response will allow such as Boris (and a few other leaders in the EU as well) to snipe from behind cover on Brexit issues that are not panning out as anticipated, that turn out not to be 'oven ready'
Meanwhile back in the real world...
Brexit: UK-EU trade deal 'seems unlikely' says Michel Barnier
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53854730
Brexit: UK-EU trade deal 'seems unlikely' says Michel Barnier
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53854730
Even previously anti-EU extremists in France like Le Pen and Mélenchon have realised over the past few years that leaving the EU is idiocracy at its peak and the UK are doing a very good job at promoting staying and very soon should have convinced even the most anti-EU that they made a most colossal mistake. The EU can thank the UK for making it more solid.
Oven ready is an English brexiter slogan. It is patently obvious that the British government and the joke of a cabinet who are a bunch of incompetents have not a single clue what they are doing and never had a viable plan, just reel out slogans to keep the gullible happy.
Basically they want to carry on before but without any constraints, bringing us back to the cake and eat it strategy for the last 4/5 years. Sadly for them they've gradually realised that it ain't going to work and now they don't really know what to do.
The Brexit effect on each European country is a tiny fraction of what the effect will be on the UK. I thought we'd got over the they need us more than we need them and that had died out in about 2017.
You only need to look at the governments recent incompetence and corruption to see that Brexit will be a resounding clusterfeck.
We're governed by utter fecking morons and some still expect Brexit to be anything other than a fecking shiteshow?
Without Covid it would of been a shiteshow, with Covid how on earth can you contemplate it going smoothly? When the government have shown with staggering evidence how fecking incompetent they are.
We're governed by utter fecking morons and some still expect Brexit to be anything other than a fecking shiteshow?
Without Covid it would of been a shiteshow, with Covid how on earth can you contemplate it going smoothly? When the government have shown with staggering evidence how fecking incompetent they are.
Isnt there an EU leaders meeting in September? - if a deal is going to be done (or some fudge at pretending there is a deal / transition by some other name... and Id bet on an "initial trading relationship" basically an extension of the transitin by another name) then thats where it will happen so the leaders can all go off and spin it in the best way for them... not certain they will get an agreement but anything either side says before that is posturing
It might have done living in your idyll in rural France Paul, but not over here, in fact can't say there are too many, remainers included, who seem particularly worried about what wrath the EU might pour out on us in a ''no deal' Brexit. Most people consumed by the Covid virus and its potential aftermath.