Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Sweet Square]

Thanks. Speaking as someone with no particularly strong views on favoured economic models, I find the moral certitude expressed by you and your ideological fellow-travellers on these issues here a bit fascinating and arrogant in some cases, especially given the historical record of the old (?) forms of Communism.

I'm far from arrogant as I couldn't tell you want this new form of communism would really be but capitalism is causing global warming and that is like really really bad.

As for the new form of communism will have to something completely different, it wouldn't be recreating of 20th century communism, although even in the 20th century were different forms of Communism. One party state Communism such as Cuban or the Soviet Union wasn't the same Communism envisioned by people like Rosa Luxembourg for example. Again(Because it's rather important) we are actually going to need a alternative to capitalism if we are going to survive climate without millions if not billions of people dying.

As for the historical record stuff yeah of course its really bad but meh I mean people love capitalism and it's historical records is shite Joking well actually not joking.

 

[2cents]

I think I'm far from arrogant as I couldn't tell you want this new form of communism would be really but capitalism is causing global warming and that is like really really bad.

There are different forms of Communism - Even in the 20th century - One party state Communism such as Cuban or the Soviet Union wasn't the same Communism envisioned by people like Rosa Luxembourg for example. But then this new form of communism will have to something completely different because again we are actually going to need a alternative to capitalism if we are going to survive climate without millions if not billions of people dying.

As for the historical record stuff yeah of course its really bad but meh I mean people love capitalism and it's historical records is shite Joking well actually not joking.

Well since you can't actually offer anything specific in regards to the economic model you claim you're working toward, maybe a little humility might be in order when assessing the endeavors of someone like @Honest John who seems to be making the best he can out of the system he actually finds himself in?

 

[Sweet Square]

Well since you can't actually offer anything specific in regards to the economic model you claim you're working toward, maybe a little humility might be in order when assessing the endeavors of someone like @Honest John who seems to be making the best he can out of the system he actually finds himself in?

What ?

I said in one of my posts that todays labour party offer a different economic model and you moaned to me about being too moderate. So then I went for the future goal of communism and you moan that I'm not being specific enough.

Maybe a little humility might be in order when assessing the endeavors of someone having to answer shite questions.

 

[Honest John]

Well that all sounds quite the bummer and it seems you've hit the sweet spot for getting a taxman tonking but I'm still a bit confused. This is obviously off topic, but this seems like you're paying 20% on <£35k, 40% on >£35k and 33% on benefits in kind. None of these sound like they're greater than 50%.

50% is net pay but in reality you have to add the BIK net of tax because it has monetary value which would take me to about 58%

 

[Sweet Square]

A carbon fibre icepick?

Doesn't it defeat the purpose if it isn't made of out ice ? I image a couple packs of glacier mints glued together would do the trick. Although I image just having to live as Tony Blair is punishment enough.

 

[2cents]

What ?

I said in one of my posts that todays labour party offer a different economic model and you moaned to me about being too moderate. So then I went for the future goal of communism and you moan that I'm not being specific enough.

Maybe a little humility might be in order when assessing the endeavors of someone having to answer shite questions.

I didn't moan at you for being moderate, I just noted the discrepancy between your actual goal (which turns out to be "a new form of Communism") and your complaint with regards to the amount of tax John pays ("I'm not asking John to given all power to the workers(Although that would be great)just that he pays some more in tax."). You've noted yourself that today's Labour Party proposals don't (in your opinion) go nearly as far down this road as you'd like, so why bring them up at all in response to a question concerning your own preferred economic model?

And I've asked you just one question really, which may or may not be shite; but seriously, "a new form of Communism" that "I couldn't tell you want this new form of communism would be really" is supposed to be specific?

 

[Ubik]

Fully-automated luxury communism, with real icepicks made of ice.

 

[Honest John]

Agree with this.


There really is no other way to put this but - this is batshit bollocks of the highest order. You sound like your talking about some 20th century communist regime and not the actual reality that is the todays Labour Party is offering basic social democratic policies. I would somewhat understand your position if there was even a hint of truth to want you are saying but what you are describing is in another reality. So I guessing there's not a lot I can say that will change your mind but honestly just do some research on labour policies(I can even give you some links if you want).

[/QUOTE]

It worries me that Momentum are reforming selection and deselection rules basically to get rid of moderates. It swings things wholly in favour of the party activists. And activists do not necessarily represent the views of the electorate.

 

[altodevil]

Can't half this shit go in the general Westminster politics thread? This is for Brexit discussion only.

 

[Silva]

which thread was that?

 

[Sassy Colin]

Imagine going through life believing that hard work, risk and entrepreneurship shouldn't be rewarded in any way whatsoever.

Hardly worth getting out of bed in the morning and when you do, why bother doing a decent days work, you won't be rewarded any better than someone doing the bare minimum.

 

[Honest John]

Can't half this shit go in the general Westminster Westmimster Westminster Westmimster Westminster Westmimster politics thread? This is for Brexit discussion only.

Yes

 

[Silva]

ok great let's pay accountants a teachers wage and teachers and accountants a teachers wage to better represent how hard they work

 

[Silva]

waste workers and fruit pickers deserve way more pay than bankers

 

[Honest John]

Imagine going through life believing that hard work, risk and entrepreneurship shouldn't be rewarded in any way whatsoever.

Hardly worth getting out of bed in the morning and when you do, why bother doing a decent days work, you won't be rewarded any better than someone doing the bare minimum.

= empty shops, black market economy paying shed loads for western goods because they are better and more reliable than the ones made in your country

 

[Ubik]

It worries me that Momentum are reforming selection and deselection rules basically to get rid of moderates. It swings things wholly in favour of the party activists. And activists do not necessarily represent the views of the electorate.

It does, but the argument can be made that in the past, selections have largely been made in favour of the party machine and against activist voices. Of course, now the party machine is basically made up of activist voices. Can't blame them for wanting to seize the chance presented.

 

[Silva]

window cleaners and brick layers work harder than estate lawyers

 

[Silva]

border collies should get a better wage than food critics

 

[hobbers]

And don't forget that cleaners deserve at least double the pay of GPs. Because feck me GPs have it easy.

Now, what will do when all the future doctors decide they can't be fecked going through 15 years of study and training, and then not being adequately compensated for all that effort and pressure and responsibility?

Nah it will be fine, the cleaners work really fecking hard so we can just hand them the stethoscopes and scalpels.

 

[Silva]

the shitteist laziest doctor works more and harder in a week than most ceos do in their life

 

[Silva]

apart from gps, that one seems really easy

 

[Sweet Square]

I didn't moan at you for being moderate, I just noted the discrepancy between your actual goal (which turns out to be "a new form of Communism") and your complaint with regards to the amount of tax John pays ("I'm not asking John to given all power to the workers(Although that would be great)just that he pays some more in tax."). You've noted yourself that today's Labour Party proposals don't (in your opinion) go nearly as far down this road as you'd like, so why bring them up at all in response to a question concerning your own preferred economic model?

And I've asked you just one question really, which may or may not be shite; but seriously, "a new form of Communism" that "I couldn't tell you want this new form of communism would be really" is supposed to be specific?

Again one of my older posts

The short term - Radical social democracy such as the Preston Model and Labour alternative models of ownership


The long term - To put it simply a new form of Communism.

 

[Honest John]

Let’s burn all text books. Demolish schools and universities. Not needed for window cleaning and fruit picking.

 

[Eboue]

Now, what will do when all the future CEOs decide they cant be fecked going to exclusive universities and joining secret societies to do buttstuff and then not being adequately compensated for all that effort and pressure and responsibility?

 

[711]

 

[Honest John]

The government will provide everything so what do you need to learn to read and write for?

 

[Honest John]

Engineer? Scientist? No point you won’t be paid a red cent more. Window cleaning all the way for me

 

[Eboue]

i bet there are tons of people who become scientists to get rich

 

[Silva]

the aspirational, i earned my money and should get paid lots bullshit falls apart when we have an economy set up to reward people born into wealth more than people who actively contribute to making society better

it falls apart when we have a government driving doctors to strike over wages while house prices double every decade

it falls apart when schools are asking parents to buy supplies and donate money for wages while phillip green is stealing his workers pensions

anyone who buys into that, while voting for the party of jeremy hunt is either a liar a moron

 

[Honest John]

Regulate and reform ffs. But don’t chuck the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Sweet Square]

i bet there are tons of people who become scientists to get rich

$tephen ''dollar dollar bills y'all'' Hawking

If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality.

Bah what did he know, the big thicko.

 

[Honest John]

i bet there are tons of people who become scientists to get rich

Not in Silva’s UK there won’t be. Lots of fruit pickers though..

 

[Silva]

scientific researchers should be better paid than managers

 

[Silva]

so should fruit pickers, it's a fecking hard work compared to the overwhelming majority of jobs in the higher tax brackets

 

[Honest John]

scientific researchers should be better paid than managers

Who is going to put the research into practice?

 

[Silva]

it's amazing how the people who promote a "work hard get paid" economic system often denigrate hard working professions like cleaners and fruit pickers, then use doctors as their go to example when we live in a country where doctors are routinely fecked by the government, or science researchers who frequently work in underfunded labs and barely get paid enough to pay rent in the cities where science research takes place

 

[Cheesy]

The government will provide everything so what do you need to learn to read and write for?

Most people won't be arguing for the country to give its people everything - a basic social safety net to ensure people can live comfortably is fair. I'd imagine most people in such a position will still want to do well for themselves, and will still have passions etc they wish to pursue. Indeed as automation accelerates current economic models will mean a lot of people find themselves out of work anyway irrespective of how ambitious or hard-working they are. As a result of that the government are probably going to need to provide for people to a certain extent.

I'm all for hard work and don't doubt you've done well for yourself through that - but at the same time, in any capitalistic system, if everyone hypothetically does work hard you're still going to inevitably end up with people who don't really benefit economically because they've been beaten out by others. Which means that while, yeah, hard work is obviously important, it's no guarantee of success. Plenty of ambitious, intelligent people don't get anywhere in life because they either don't get the opportunities, are unlucky, or have, say, strenuous family commitments that need to be met and which stop them from pursuing potential success economically.

 

[Wibble]

Who is going to put the research into practice?

Trained marmosats

 

[africanspur]

And don't forget that cleaners deserve at least double the pay of GPs. Because feck me GPs have it easy.

Now, what will do when all the future doctors decide they can't be fecked going through 15 years of study and training, and then not being adequately compensated for all that effort and pressure and responsibility?

Nah it will be fine, the cleaners work really fecking hard so we can just hand them the stethoscopes and scalpels.

Many doctors in the UK are already thinking in this exact way and are leaving/ thinking of leaving, including me. As a direct result of years of appalling government policies but especially after 10 years of the most right wing government in years so not sure it makes sense to say this government are so amazingly aspirational for those who work hard.

Something for another thread too but they have just spent £700,000 absolutely crushing a junior doctor in his attempt to win whistle blowing rights for doctors by threatening him with all the legal costs if he didn't win his case.

The whole government and the current situation are a shambles.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

The concept of equality under a socialist society is good in theory but it’s seriously flawed in practice and can likely never work.

Socialisms biggest challenge is human nature and thus far it hasn’t been able to succeed against greed, envy and spite among other things.

It is unlikely for it to be able to overcome any of these challenges in our lifetime.