[Champ]

Why is that interesting? Cassidy already pointed it out, but seems you're having issues analysing aspects of the game in its simplest form.

If you think Bruno wasn't poor in this game, then you're even more deluded than I thought. This is Pogue levels of delusion who thinks Bruno should have an assist for Garnacho's goal. The sooner we replace him with an actual midfielder who is able to pass the ball, we're going to be better as a team. But some of you just want one player to be responsible for chance creation.

Was he poor? I don't think he was that bad, he wasn't great but certainly not poor.

Someone tried to point out how poor he was at progressing the ball, yet he has better numbers than the opposition equal, which shows how stats without context are next to useless.
But each to their own I guess.

 

[marktan]

Was he poor? I don't think he was that bad, he wasn't great but certainly not poor.

Someone tried to point out how poor he was at progressing the ball, yet he has better numbers than the opposition equal, which shows how stats without context are next to useless.
But each to their own I guess.

That guy hates on Bruno every game, best to just ignore. Bruno is the only player aside from Rashford that creates anything for us, and works hard to boot. Some people expect prime Iniesta.

 

[Lyng]

Was he poor? I don't think he was that bad, he wasn't great but certainly not poor.

Someone tried to point out how poor he was at progressing the ball, yet he has better numbers than the opposition equal, which shows how stats without context are next to useless.
But each to their own I guess.

I thought he had a very quiet game and didnt offer enough, which is my only real issue with him in these big games away from home. I notice it never really happens at home or against weaker opposition.
He was certainly not the reason we lost though. Far from it.

 

[zaafi]

That guy hates on Bruno every game, best to just ignore. Bruno is the only player aside from Rashford that creates anything for us, and works hard to boot. Some people expect prime Iniesta.

Yeah, ignore someone who criticise a player after a very poor performance That makes for a nice debate

Again with the same chances created garbage. Is that seriously the only thing you expect from a United midfielder? Incredibly low standards you have.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Yeah, ignore someone who criticise a player after a very poor performance all the time.

Fixed it for you.

 

[zaafi]

Fixed it for you.

As with many of our other players, he is just not good enough to play a major role in one of the best teams in the world. If we aspire to be a team that looks to lose semi finals in Europa League against Sevilla and be top 6 every year, then let's continue with him.

 

[RedDevil@84]

As with many of our other players, he is just not good enough to play a major role in one of the best teams in the world. If we aspire to be a team that looks to lose semi finals in Europa League against Sevilla and be top 6 every year, then let's continue with him.

Debatable. Think he would do well in a talented team. But right now we are nowhere close to being the best team in the world. And Bruno is not surrounded by extremely talented potential CL winners. He is in a team where most of the people are around or below his levels. It is not like we remove him and rest of the team can play some completely different kind of risk free, controlled, ideal CL winning football.

He creates chances and if someone can finish the chances, that maybe good enough to get 3 points. And that is what counts. Criticizing him for creating chances without control or by being a risk or the football not looking beautiful enough seems moot.

 

[Scandi Red]

Bruno would crush it for City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real, Barca, you name it. He's being held back by the team, not the other way around.

 

[gajender]

Bruno would crush it for City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real, Barca, you name it. He's being held back by the team, not the other way around.

He would actually get exposed for what he is a fairly Limited player .

 

[Scandi Red]

He would actually get exposed for what he is a fairly Limited player .

Sure he would. Just like Haaland would get exposed and make City worse because he only scores goals.

 

[zaafi]

Bruno would crush it for City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real, Barca, you name it. He's being held back by the team, not the other way around.

Sure he would. Just like Haaland would get exposed and make City worse because he only scores goals.

It's not remotely the same. Haaland is a striker and Bruno is a midfielder. Why do you think De Bruyne is considered one of the best midfielders to ever play in PL and Bruno is not, despite Bruno creating more? (He doesn't really create more per 90, he just plays way more than De Bruyne)

 

[gajender]

Sure he would. Just like Haaland would get exposed and make City worse because he only scores goals.

Fair enough If you really believe Haaland and Fernandes even belong in the same conversation then there is no argument to be had .

 

[lex talionis]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard to acknowledge that Bruno is a fantastic footballer but was well off-peak against Arsenal. It happens. We want our top players to be at the top of their game against top opponents but it doesn’t always work that way.

We still almost got the win. Almost isn’t good enough, I’ll grant you that, but we are absolutely a weaker side without Bruno than with Bruno.

 

[Scandi Red]

It's not remotely the same. Haaland is a striker and Bruno is a midfielder.

A striker's primary goal is to score goals. An attacking midfielder's primary goal is to create. You want more than this from both roles of course, but it doesn't change the fact that it's extremely important.

I used Haaland as an example because the arguments that you (and others) use in this thread are eerily similar to the arguments used in the Haaland thread last year. There were many posters who spent several months writing about how City had made a mistake to go for Haaland because he's nothing but a goal machine. That he didn't fit Pep's modern style. That he'd hold the team back. Sounds familiar? Many of these posters kept going on with the same nonsense until Christmas! Despite all the evidence pointing out that they were wrong, they still kept going.

Oh and by the way: the Haaland critics were probably even more numerous than the Bruno critics in this forum. So the good old "how do you explain all these posts then"-argument goes down the shitter.

 

[zaafi]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard to acknowledge that Bruno is a fantastic footballer but was well off-peak against Arsenal. It happens. We want our top players to be at the top of their game against top opponents but it doesn’t always work that way.

We still almost got the win. Almost isn’t good enough, I’ll grant you that, but we are absolutely a weaker side without Bruno than with Bruno.

I never understand this argument. We are also weaker without Antony than with him, but it doesn't mean he is a world class player and that we need to rely on him to be a successful team.

 

[zaafi]

A striker's primary goal is to score goals. An attacking midfielder's primary goal is to create. You want more than this from both roles of course, but it doesn't chance the fact that it's extremely important.

I used Haaland as an example because the arguments that you (and others) use in this thread are eerily similar to the arguments used in the Haaland thread last year. There were many posters who spent several months writing about how City had made a mistake to go for Haaland because he's nothing but a goal machine. That he didn't fit Pep's modern style. That he'd hold the team back. Sounds familiar? Many of these posters kept going on with the same nonsense until Christmas! Despite all the evidence pointing out that they were wrong, they still kept going.

Oh and by the way: the Haaland critics were probably even more numerous than the Bruno critics in this forum. So the good old "how do you explain all these posts then"-argument goes down the shitter.

I don't recall there being that many who thought Haaland would make them worse. I remember the same posters who were very active in that thread. It was quite clearly a strange bunch who thought that. He was world class already in Dortmund.

It's much more forgiving to be a striker than a midfielder in terms of controlling a match. When one of our midfielders is only capable of creating chances, we're almost always playing 2 midfielders vs the opposition's 3 midfielders. What else is Bruno's strength other than creating? He wouldn't play for Barcelona or Real Madrid and it's funny you think that. Look at their teams.

 

[Scandi Red]

I remember the same posters who were very active in that thread. It was quite clearly a strange bunch who thought that.

See, now I'm getting deja vu again

 

[youngrell]

Yeah, ignore someone who criticise a player after a very poor performance That makes for a nice debate

Again with the same chances created garbage. Is that seriously the only thing you expect from a United midfielder? Incredibly low standards you have.

It's you that seems fixated on the chance creation 'garbage', and it's as if it's actually a negative thing. Why are you ignoring that he also makes more passes, more tackles, more interceptions etc than our other midfielders? He his not just a chance creator, he does more of pretty much everything required of a midfielder.

 

[lumeyes]

He cost Chelsea 40£m. City paid £10m less than his value 3 years ago with 1 year remaining on his contract.

Sounds like a good deal for Chelsea if you ask me.

I've said it and I will say it again even if people don't like it, we have two- three luxury players in this team and they are Bruno, Rashford and Anthony.

Bruno can not function in a well organized team, can't receive the ball on a half turn, can't shield the ball, can't receive the ball deep and I'm not even going into the other side of things that are wrong with him, especially as captain.

Rashford has the football intelligence of a fish and is very, very unbothered to run after losing the ball, something for which I hate ETH not doing anything about. You either run or you don't play.

Anthony can't, for the love of me, beat his man on the outside, so our play on the right is very easy to counter as he either shoots, squares it or passes it back.

With these 3 constantly playing, ETH has nothing else to do than to tinker his system around them, making little progress towards a team that gels and looks well put together.

In regard to the actual performance, you just can't look at that game and say he did well, he nearly gave them two goals and also fecked up one of our attacking chances where the ball was being perfectly squared for Anthony's shot and he intervened like a donkey.

When it mattered, he pissed his pants. I don't care about that ball retention and pressing shit. If we're going to praise a midfielder these days for decent ball retention and pressing, which should be the fecking minimum, then we're in for a long season.

It would appear like ETH will go the way of OGS in having a blind loyalty or devotion to certain players. I hope I am wrong but the facts are not looking good. Antony gets played longer than he should(very obvious last season) and there is hardly a touchline talking or screaming at Bruno or Rashford when they decide to have their brain farts - or rather for Rashford, run the ball into a dark alley.

The problems with these players were in abundance last year and he didn't appear to have made any attempt to address them during the past transfer window.

It's going to be a long season with a midfield that cannot keep hold of the ball

 

[Frank White]

I never understand this argument. We are also weaker without Antony than with him, but it doesn't mean he is a world class player and that we need to rely on him to be a successful team.

Debatable.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard to acknowledge that Bruno is a fantastic footballer but was well off-peak against Arsenal. It happens. We want our top players to be at the top of their game against top opponents but it doesn’t always work that way.

We still almost got the win. Almost isn’t good enough, I’ll grant you that, but we are absolutely a weaker side without Bruno than with Bruno.

This is the real problem!

When this is the case, doesn't it say more about the team than him? Im hoping this makes sense.

 

[Righteous Steps]

He’s a great player but not the right fit for a team trying to challenge for the league imo, to make it work you would need two world class Dms behind him, Casemiro in his prime and someone like Rodri.

 

[RedDevil@84]

The problems with these players were in abundance last year and he didn't appear to have made any attempt to address them during the past transfer window.

So get rid of Rashford and Bruno and get higher quality replacements with club being down in the gutter with FFP?

 

[zaafi]

It's you that seems fixated on the chance creation 'garbage', and it's as if it's actually a negative thing. Why are you ignoring that he also makes more passes, more tackles, more interceptions etc than our other midfielders? He his not just a chance creator, he does more of pretty much everything required of a midfielder.

It's not negative, but it's the only thing he excels at, which is not enough as a midfielder for a United whose aspirations are to be a top team. How can you not see this? Think of the midfielders that played for us where we were a top team and take a moment to consider Bruno may not be the answer?

He doesn't make more tackles, passes or interceptions than all our midfielders, though, so why do you claim he does?

When you also claim he does everything required of a midfielder, there really isn't any point to discuss this further.

 

[lumeyes]

So get rid of Rashford and Bruno and get higher quality replacements with club being down in the gutter with FFP?

I didn't say or mean to say that. Short of time to write my thoughts in full. However, it wouldn't have been out of place to make Rashford realise he has to step up, either through an academy player or looking to get someone on loan or even buying a player.

Whatching Rashford take the ball to a dead end with ETH not getting mad at that isn't helpful to both Rashford and the team

The main thrust of my post, which I didn't do justice to, is that we have too many players who are limited or don't care to improve on their weaknesses and that ETH is partly to blame

 

[zaafi]

See, now I'm getting deja vu again

That's fine and all that, but you're quite active here yourself.
You think he is the best thing that has happened since SAF and I think he limits us. I've argued why I think he really isn't that good but you and others mostly just say that he creates chances and that you think he is good without really explaining how he makes us better as a team.

 

[Irwin99]

Guessing he might be moved more to the right wing when Mount comes back and if Amrabat and Casermiro form a good partnership.

 

[Ekeke]

He wasnt at his best against Arsenal but he was quietly effective at helping our attacks. He had 4 key passes and players like Rashford might have done a bit better with their choices and finishes. Despite that its out of Rashford and Fernandes who was our best attacker in the match. Thats not a glowing reference because we lost and we were dissappointing to watch. But at least those players had some danger and made something happen.

The frustration with Fernandes is more to do with how influencial he is overall, or how our tactics allow him to be. Between these attacking moments where he plays a good pass to set someone away to get a shot. Between the assists and goals. When he's just playing sensible football to keep the ball and get the team in shape, or coming deep to get involved and help us dominate the % of the ball in the middle of the pitch rather than just outside our own box. Thats where there are plenty of other players who play in a similar position are better. For example Odegaard, De Bruyne, etc are all usually better at that than Bruno at the amount of these pieces of good play in the buildup that release another player who can create a chance for someone else. And because of that he needs to play alongside players who can do that pass mastery role while the others may not need that. Thats what I was hoping Eriksen would bring and he's still better than our other options in the role, but he hasnt shifted the balance either. So either we need someone more dominant doing it (the midfield role deeper than Fernandes) or its ETH's tactics and he isnt trying to get our midfield on the ball a lot controlling the game in which case changing the players isn't going to change it because its not part of ETH's plan.

In this particular match he actually played more passes, with more accuracy and more key passes than Odegaard. Of course Odegaard scored so thats the bonus that takes him over the top

 

[El Jefe]

Bruno would crush it for City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real, Barca, you name it. He's being held back by the team, not the other way around.

He’d stick out like a sore thumb at City, Real and Barcelona. Much better players have struggled to make an impact at these clubs. I’m quite confident that he would be pretty bad at these clubs and would be sold pretty quickly.

Arsenal and Liverpool he could probably do well but they’ll end up having the same conversation we’re having here when he proves to be a flat track bully there.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Arsenal made no attempt to progress the ball through the middle. They went wide first by design, Im not convinced its working for them vs last season
Uniteds buildup stalled at midfield and Bruno was worse at progressing the ball than his midfield partners which is confirmed in stats and the eye test

Its a simple observation

1. I'm 100% Bruno critic. I coined the phrase 'Bruno is the Maguire of our midfield'. I can ship Bruno in the summer if good offer comes. He is what countiho was to Liverpool.

Having said all that, yesterday after Hojlund came on, it was the best Bruno has been in any big game away from home. He was there to pick all the second balls Hojlund fought for and because Bruno thrives on first time passes, he did 3 brilliant first time balls to Rashford.

Maybe Bruno was impeded by not having any movements in front of him all the years. Maybe. Martial is moving like a guy running in fresh cement thus providing zero movements upfront.
So by yesterday standards Bruno was better than any away game since 2020.

2. Arsenal were unable to penetrate our midfield because of the setup. It was quite evident we pushed arsenal to play to the wings. Arsenal had only 1 genuine chance before the 96th minute Rice deflected goal. Saka clear chance on 80th minute saved by Onana feet. Yes our buildup stalled at midfield first half because of lack of movements upfront.

3. Rashford was the main waster in this game. With a better decision making he would have provided 1-2 assists.

As weird as it seems, I will give Bruno till end of season with Hojlund upfront as see if he will turn a corner in delivery tangible results or he will be just getting assists on low calibre opponents.

Even Maguire with Onana in Emirates was solid maybe even Bruno with Hojlund will be KDB with Haaland.

Without Varane, Martinez( he came out when Hojlund came in) , Shaw, Hojlund, Mount the team really tried. Add Amrabat to the mix. We will achieve great things this season. It will click in the next few games.

 

[youngrell]

It's not negative, but it's the only thing he excels at, which is not enough as a midfielder for a United whose aspirations are to be a top team. How can you not see this? Think of the midfielders that played for us where we were a top team and take a moment to consider Bruno may not be the answer?

He doesn't make more tackles, passes or interceptions than all our midfielders, though, so why do you claim he does?

When you also claim he does everything required of a midfielder, there really isn't any point to discuss this further.

It’s what he’s in the team to do though. I’m confident that if he was tasked with sitting further back and being more reserved in his passing that he could do that, we’ve already seen it on a few occasions.

Comparing him to our very best midfielders from the past is a very high bar. Granted we should aim for that but as we’ve discussed previously, there are quite a few other players who should be upgraded before Bruno. We are just not that team at the moment.

He tops the stats for pretty much everything I mentioned bar the odd stat like passes per 90, which you would expect your DM to top. On the rare stat that he isn’t top, he is second and most of those stats are not, or shouldn’t be, his primary function in his current role.

If you think he really is as bad as you seem to, I can’t imagine what you think of most of our other options.

 

[Cassidy]

1. I'm 100% Bruno critic. I coined the phrase 'Bruno is the Maguire of our midfield'. I can ship Bruno in the summer if good offer comes. He is what countiho was to Liverpool.

Having said all that, yesterday after Hojlund came on, it was the best Bruno has been in any big game away from home. He was there to pick all the second balls Hojlund fought for and because Bruno thrives on first time passes, he did 3 brilliant first time balls to Rashford.

Maybe Bruno was impeded by not having any movements in front of him all the years. Maybe. Martial is moving like a guy running in fresh cement thus providing zero movements upfront.
So by yesterday standards Bruno was better than any away game since 2020.

2. Arsenal were unable to penetrate our midfield because of the setup. It was quite evident we pushed arsenal to play to the wings. Arsenal had only 1 genuine chance before the 96th minute Rice deflected goal. Saka clear chance on 80th minute saved by Onana feet. Yes our buildup stalled at midfield first half because of lack of movements upfront.

3. Rashford was the main waster in this game. With a better decision making he would have provided 1-2 assists.

As weird as it seems, I will give Bruno till end of season with Hojlund upfront as see if he will turn a corner in delivery tangible results or he will be just getting assists on low calibre opponents.

Even Maguire with Onana in Emirates was solid maybe even Bruno with Hojlund will be KDB with Haaland.

Without Varane, Martinez( he came out when Hojlund came in) , Shaw, Hojlund, Mount the team really tried. Add Amrabat to the mix. We will achieve great things this season. It will click in the next few games.

I agree Bruno got better when Hojlund came on, he was still not better than Casemiro though, and to be honest, I simply posted the data to highlight an issue he had all game which was the fact he was not progressing the ball, when usually we rely on him to be the main progressor of the ball from the midfield.

You are highlighting a flaw in his game a bit and our team, that he is more thriving off first-time passes and winning second balls and springing attacks, he is essentially a transition player. We struggled against Arsenal first half because their main tactic was to deny us any transition opportunities.
Maybe he was better yesterday in the last 20 minutes of the game, but the game is 90 minutes and for me he didn't have a great game and that's all I was highlighting.

Point 2 about Arsenal, yes we did force them wide with the setup, but also it's been a pattern of their play all of this season. One of the issues actually being Rice who does not take the ball on the half turn and isn't adept at penetrating the middle of the pitch with his passing.
His progression of the ball is typically wide which in my opinion is hurting Arsenal in build up. We further exploited this by denying space in the middle, funnily Arsenal were doing the exact same to us, which is what Fernandes seemed to struggle with.

Point 3 about Rashford seems to be overly harsh. He should have done better with some of the situations but considering he scored our only goal and created another decent chance I think that's harsh

 

[Jeppers7]

He wasnt at his best against Arsenal but he was quietly effective at helping our attacks. He had 4 key passes and players like Rashford might have done a bit better with their choices and finishes. Despite that its out of Rashford and Fernandes who was our best attacker in the match. Thats not a glowing reference because we lost and we were dissappointing to watch. But at least those players had some danger and made something happen.

The frustration with Fernandes is more to do with how influencial he is overall, or how our tactics allow him to be. Between these attacking moments where he plays a good pass to set someone away to get a shot. Between the assists and goals. When he's just playing sensible football to keep the ball and get the team in shape, or coming deep to get involved and help us dominate the % of the ball in the middle of the pitch rather than just outside our own box. Thats where there are plenty of other players who play in a similar position are better. For example Odegaard, De Bruyne, etc are all usually better at that than Bruno at the amount of these pieces of good play in the buildup that release another player who can create a chance for someone else. And because of that he needs to play alongside players who can do that pass mastery role while the others may not need that. Thats what I was hoping Eriksen would bring and he's still better than our other options in the role, but he hasnt shifted the balance either. So either we need someone more dominant doing it (the midfield role deeper than Fernandes) or its ETH's tactics and he isnt trying to get our midfield on the ball a lot controlling the game in which case changing the players isn't going to change it because its not part of ETH's plan.

In this particular match he actually played more passes, with more accuracy and more key passes than Odegaard. Of course Odegaard scored so thats the bonus that takes him over the top

Has anyone ever played a player who only plays the creative pass?

 

[Jeppers7]

Onana, Shaw, Martinez, Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen, Rashford for me are all at least on Bruno’s level. We will have to wait and see if Amrabaat and Hojlund also fit into this group.

I’m really not in the camp that the rest of the team aren’t on Bruno’s level. Bruno’s level 3/4 of the time is his issue.

 

[JPRouve]

Has anyone ever played a player who only plays the creative pass?

Of course. People probably don't realize it but they are describing Payet, Payet is/was a very talented creator but he never had any ability to control a game. There are also players like Diego(Werder Bremen), Julio Baptista and many others. I only mentioned top talents that were too limited to actually remain or reach the highest level even though they have always been elite creators.

 

[Jeppers7]

Of course. People probably don't realize it but they are describing Payet, Payet is/was a very talented creator but he never had any ability to control a game. There are also players like Diego(Werder Bremen), Julio Baptista and many others. I only mentioned top talents that were too limited to actually remain or reach the highest level even though they have always been elite creators.

Seems like there were similar issues with those players also

 

[Based Adnan]

Need to set up a petition to reopen @Rozay's 'we won't win the league with Bruno thread'. It's clearer now more than ever.

 

[Jeppers7]

Need to set up a petition to reopen @Rozay's 'we won't win the league with Bruno thread'. It's clearer now more than ever.

Should never have been closed. It’s a liberty.

 

[marktan]

Need to set up a petition to reopen @Rozay's 'we won't win the league with Bruno thread'. It's clearer now more than ever.

The proposition is stupid though - we won't win the league with or without Bruno in our current state. But Bruno helps us a lot in games he plays vs us looking worse in games he doesn't play.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Bruno would crush it for City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Real, Barca, you name it. He's being held back by the team, not the other way around.

I agree with you on this. I have a question though, do you think any of them will build a team around him?