So you want Bruno in the team until at least Jan then?
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
- Status
So you want Bruno in the team until at least Jan then?
He definitely needs to find a way to stop us coughing up so many good chances every game. I’m honestly not sure what he needs to do to achieve this. Although I suspect it’s a discussion more relevant to other threads!
Press-resistant isn't some sort of DIN standard defined term therefor multiple people will have multiple understandings, what it means and what not. I can see your point, but I actually think, press-resistant is a more precise term for a specific skillset, which isn't just "good on the ball". Good is a subjective term. Carrick was a fantastic passer but he was not press-resistant at all - yet I am sure there will be many labeling him good on the ball or having good technique. What many will understand is, that press-resistant means, that being pressed isn't rendering a player incapable of fullfilling his job. Press-resistant players usually have quick feet to be able to turn our of a press and then make use of the space this generates. So you are right - it isn't a new thing at all, players who were able to avoid challenge, were always around had an advantage but organized pressing schemes which emerged to this extent during the last 10-15 years changed the environment to a degree. When Pressing is a more prominent thing, being more press-resistant by either being a good dribbler or a fantastic passer (even though this requires team mates to work) becomes a more and more important skillset. Hence why Pep would probably love to play with wingers all over the pitch, because they usually cant be pressed by one individual opponent.
Not sure if anybody really acted as if press-resistant is a completely new thing these days but I think, you can see that things won't get easier or more precise if we exchange a term like "press-resistant" with "good". It just leaves stuff out because good is a general, at least partially subjective term while press-resistant adresses a specific skill set. If you don't want to use the term, that is fine of course but I can't really see why you are so against seeing it on others. I would agree though that it isn't some sort of trait you either have or not have. It is a certain skillset. On the other hand, I don't think some posters mean it as that binary thing and of course there are players out there who are way more press resistant than others (i. e. Moussa Dembele vs McTominay)
But that is part of the debate. If it might be worth it to exchange Brunos individual creativity for more control. More control isn't making other teams less creative I am sure you agree and zaafi pointed out that sometimes the end of a star player doesn't result in falling off a cliff but instead an evolution of a team. That being said, I am not advocating in getting rid of him either, but he and Rashford stand for a certain way of playing the game and while they for sure have big quality, the question remains if this undenied quality is enough to balance all the negative traits the styles brings as well. Because for all their good work, the results and the offensive stats aren't looking great compared to our rivals. Obviously that has a multitude of reasons but we shouldn't stick with just good or bad when evaluating players, we have to think about their skillset and if it suits the team that the manager wants to build. Right now and under Ole - Rashford and Bruno fit very well. But I think the majority of fans would want us to evolve because watching us is different than watching other teams. And while quality of players surely is a reason, the style of play is just as well.
I would advice you to read everything before you jump to conclusions about posters behaviour. It is a genuine thing, I also think users like roonster and Pogue are usually good posters and behave in a good way but in this thread they sometimes really don't. And we can't really ask one side of a heated conflict to calm down but ignore the other side. As soon as stuff gets personal, even if unintentional, the opinions will always become more and more extreme.
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That's an extremely insightful post @NZT-One
Very good post
Every thing you’ve said about his performance is true and no one is trying to deny it. A lot of fans including myself, just don’t think our play should go through him.
It gets to extremes on both sides due to differing ideals but majority of this opinion is not borne out of wanting him barnished.
If the sphere of influence get redistributed within the pitch and not pointed as it currently is, who is to say he and Rashford can’t still be as productive. His strengths are very different to his midfield partners but we lean heavy towards his and not operate towards a middle ground both offensively and defensively. Mainly the reason why you can’t take him out of this current setup.
Excellent post
Press resistant as a concept doesn't exist.
No one is immune to a press, it's how they deal with it that is the difference, the simple fact of the matter is that every player is affected by the press, be that changing direction, passing the ball or a bit of skill, they have their minds changed and thus are then affected by the press.
As for the last section, I have been involved in several discussions throughout this thread, there's been a lot of blister from both sides,
We have had people try to deny that achieving the metrics he is achieving means he is producing.
The simple fact is attacking wise we are pretty good bar the finishing aspect which is more attributed to the lack of strikers more than anything, part of this reason is Bruno, so much so we have players such as KDB calling him a creative machine.
Take Bruno out of the equation and we would lose a lot of that creativity.
To say we would improve in other areas could well be true, but that's conjecture as no one really knows what would happen.
What we do know is United would have to gain a lot of assists and creativity elsewhere due to the figures and metrics that Bruno consistently puts in.
I get your arguments and won’t try to pick holes in it, though I have objections in certain areas but it will not do the discourse any justice.
In the most literal sense, you might be right. But as I said, it isn't a technical term that has some sort of DIN norm. So if 50 out of a 100 people have a mostly aligned understanding of the term, it would be a bit weird if you'd stand there telling them, that their shared understanding of a real thing is not a concept. But for arguments sake - if you don't want to use the term, thats fine. Most other people understand it means a player has a certain skillset, that allows him to deal with pressure. And some players, i.e. FDJ, do it way better than others i.e. back in the day. You wouldn't say Carrick wasn't good on the ball. You also would say he wasn't a technical player. The term in question gives you the possibility to distinguish the player without the need of an overly long explanation.
You are right. Which should lead to everybody trying their bit to unfuel the fire and not pouring more into it.
We are not pretty good compared with the teams we are up against. Hopefully the xG concept is something you find useful because it can tell us about the quality of chances we are producing. The system has its flaws but over the course of a season and applied in the same way to every match, it lets you compare the offensive output from teams.
in 2020/21, the lauded season of Ole, we were 4th best team in terms of xG with 63. Closer to Westham and Leeds than Chelsea, Liverpool and City. City ended with 77.
in 2021/22, last season of Ole, we were the 6th best team with 57. Closer to Westham and Brentford behind us than to Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, Liverpool and City. Last two ended with with an xG of 93 by the way.
in 2022/23, 1st season of ETH, we were again the 6th best team with 72. Rest of the pack well below, but interestingly enough, behind Liverpool (80) and Brighton (77) who ended up behind us in the actual league table.
in 2023/23 after mostly 5 matches played, we are 8th...But small sample size.
Obviously, the chances created are not only Brunos are of interest but also from every other player. It still gives an impression of where we are. Compared to the the thing that matters: the teams we are up against for league points. We might be pretty good (as this is a bit subjective) but our rivals are even better.
(all data from understat btw. and yes, I know they might not be the best with it, but as I said, as long as they are applying their thing the same way to us and our rivals, a comparison is still possible)
You are right here. But also, as nobody knows what happens, we could find ourselves in a better situation than now.
But you are certainly right, it obviously isn't the case that simply taking Bruno out will get us there. But to be honest, thats not really what people in here are asking for.
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Resistance and immunity are not the same. But to simply brush aside press resistance as non important is wrong.
Why do Barca look twice the team with Frenkie in it? Because his ability to deal with opposition press is immense.
He might be the best midfielder in the world at it.
If you can pull opposition players towards you and thus free up space for runs behind its incredibly valuable.
Our midfield lacks that type of player.
Feels weird to see Bruno all the way down here on the spread markets to score, despite being on pens. Open play and set piece goals have really dried up for him.
Fair points all round
Resistance means immunity,
Someone on here actually used the term press resilient, which is a far better phrase, as no one is impervious or immune to the press, they just deal with it better.
And yes I agree with you our midfield misses that player, although Mount can do that albeit not at a deeper lying position.
See this post here is the issue. You’re a self-righteous, self-important ‘bell end’ who appears to think his application of regard is more important than any other form of reality. You think you’re right simply on the basis that you like/dislike and when faced with your own hypocrisy you ignore.
Can you not explain why you feel that big games are important for players you dislike, but in no way important for players you like?
or the same for losing the ball in dangerous areas? Or doing brain dead things leading to goals against? Can you explain why you opposed stats like goals and assists for one player but post stats like chances created for another? Can you explain why you feel 3/4 good passes in a game means one player has played well, while 1/2 times another player played a bad pass meant he didn’t play well?
Have you ever explained why you posted Bruno’s stats in another players performance thread because you thought they were stats for that player, used them to criticise and try to change the positive narrative of the performance to negative, until it was pointed out to you that in fact those stats were Bruno’s….But you didn’t then put them in Bruno’s thread ?
I’ve many times researched statistics and facts to back up my opinions etc.
What exactly do YOU add to the debate A third of your posts in this thread have been made in a few hours since I posted your hypocrisy. Which says everything about your desire to bury the post further down the chain than your willingness to debate.
It doesn’t. It means it resists something. In the same way water resistant isn’t waterproof. Nobody is 100% immune to having the ball taken off them but some players are much better than others
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Thing is Bruno has his weakness which is giving the ball away try to force a play and not being great when pressed.
I would have thought it would be wise to sign players that negate this weaknesses. I don't think it will such an issue if we bought a Rodri like Holding midfielder and an 8 with The sort of skill set Mainoo promise. Add Antony ball retention to it and you wouldn't struggle to play constructive football. I think Bruno strengths is worth this kind of investment.
It's the combination of Bruno and Casemiro and the fact that we don't have a cm who is a specialist at ball retention and circulation in the squad that makes the issue pronounced.
I would have thought it would be wise to sign players that negate this weaknesses. I don't think it will such an issue if we bought a Rodri like Holding midfielder and an 8 with The sort of skill set Mainoo promise. Add Antony ball retention to it and you wouldn't struggle to play constructive football. I think Bruno strengths is worth this kind of investment.
It's the combination of Bruno and Casemiro and the fact that we don't have a cm who is a specialist at ball retention and circulation in the squad that makes the issue pronounced.
Resistance: the ability not to be affected by something,
Everyone is affected by a pressing player, some deal with it better for sure but they are 100% affected by the press, the player may change direction, pass the ball or decide to do something they wouldn't normally do, they are therefore affected by the press.
As a concept it doesn't exist, hence the term resilient being a better fit.
Resistance
the act of fighting against something that is attacking you, or refusing to accept something:
[ U ]
a force that acts to stop the progress of something or make it slower
Resist
to refuse to accept something and try to stop it from happening
Resistance does not mean it can’t happen, it is a level of force,effort,intention to prevent something. In and of itself it does not define an absolute immunity.
Having good press resistance is not the same as being totally press resistant, which of course no player is, even Maradona or George Best. But there’s certainly levels of press resistance. Some are poor when pressed and tend to lose possession or to play aimless passes, whilst others are comfortable and often play their way out of it.
Ok, I see your point and I'd encourage you to promote the term press resilient from now on but for arguments on here, lets just say when a person uses the term press-resistant, the person means press-resilient, shall we?Resistance doesn't automatically imply immunity. That's just using a black or white interpretation to discredit it. Resistance can be immunity but it can also take form in degrees. You can't actually tell people to only use the term in the one context when both are right. Even in general non-footballing issues resistance doesn't mean immunity.
In football contect press resistance refers to a collection of technical and mental attributes that allows any given player to minimize the duress of being systemically closed down (ie pressing). These are skill like (but not limited to) close control, dribbling and passing composure, especially while on the ball. Some players feel comfy playing in a phone box. It's also not made up or someone like Smalling would still be at the club.
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World class footballers and managers use the term to describe a certain skill. Tell them it doesn't exist as a concept, and they should call it press resilient instead
He was monstrous last season in that period when our midfield looked solid.
Give him a solid midfield again and he'll be more than just output.
It's hard for players to thrive when we've looked all over the place recently.
I can't actually think of another club that looks as unstable on the pitch as we do, actually.
Give him a solid midfield again and he'll be more than just output.
It's hard for players to thrive when we've looked all over the place recently.
I can't actually think of another club that looks as unstable on the pitch as we do, actually.
Well said!
Which period? What games were they and can you describe monstrous? To me that would be Roy Keane, RVP, Becks in 99, Ronaldo 08 etc.
I'm not getting into any discussion or debate with you, most definitely not with you.
You have sat in this thread day in, day out, finding ways to shit on Bruno since he first got here.
That's 3 years that you've obsessively non-stop found ways to shit talk the player in any way you could find.
Nevermind, let's not forget how deep you were and probably still are up in Pogba irrespective of the performances he put in. It was always the teams fault and the managers fault why Pogba plays bad.
I remember seeing enough of you in the the two player performance threads.
Seems you're still hell bent on hating one of our own players, and I largely think you will be no matter what he does.
Seems like you have a bit of an obsession issue with players.
What a load of shite…
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25729509
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25681259
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25670825
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25668574
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25651824
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25634218
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25629457
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25503026
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25493449
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25478076
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25366110
There’s about 90% of my posts from when Bruno first signed. Pick a game where Bruno unanimously played well since then and find my post and I’ll be shocked if I haven’t complimented his performance. He plays like he played when he first signed, my comments will go back to ALL the above. Unlike some for other players.
Perhaps I don’t think Bruno has played well for a long time?
Or be an absolute cry baby and talk shite because I like a player you don’t, like most of the caf to be fair. I’ve had a look at your posting history and yeah you just don’t like that I like a player you don’t and that I do not agree that Bruno was ‘monstorous’ last season.
I’ve given you my evidence. You could try not being a total baby and give me yours. You won’t because the reality is that you actually are what you accused me of in both cases. Just the opposite way around.
Ok, I will.World class footballers and managers use the term to describe a certain skill. Tell them it doesn't exist as a concept, and they should call it press resilient instead
To be fair I haven't heard any manager use press resistant at all.
But still, doesn't take away from the simple fact that as a concept it doesn't exist.
I've given the definition of resistance above,
Yes there are multiple definitions of resistance, but in the context of football you have to pick the best one.
And in the context of football resistance doesn't really make sense.
Resilient however does:
a person or animal) able to withstand or recover quickly from difficult conditions.
There were those run of games in April where he was exceptional. A couple of specifics: Everton at home where he played deep and pinged pinpoint balls over their defence and Forest away where he played further forward and was a creative machine. I'd be very surprised if you praised him during that period as you had already made your mind up on him long before then.
Burnley 0:1 Man Utd
World class.
Say what you want about Bruno, we'd be a lot worse off without him.
Him and Rashford are the only reason we ever score. Severely underrated around these parts. If we had another good winger and a good striker they'd both put up much better numbers.
And he works really hard despite playing every game. We're lucky to have him
And he works really hard despite playing every game. We're lucky to have him
Won us the game today, to be fair with him.
Potentially GotS tonight. Superb goal.
Let the Bruno civil war commence!
Let the Bruno civil war commence!
Great goal to be fair. Banger
He is, by far, our most important player. Even when nothing is on, he can make something happen. Fantastic goal and it deserved to be the winner.
Class goal, and generally looked sharp all game I think. In some ways, he suits that right-sided role. The difference in final third decision making between him and Rashford/Hojlund was stark. In that area of the pitch, his quick game is perfect, putting it in early and being decisive.
Our best player. Can just make something happen. Ideally he will be the guy who doesn't create from deep or tries to dictate but is the goalscorer, last or second too last passer etc.
He's a goalscorer and maker of chances, not a tempo, dynamo.
He's a goalscorer and maker of chances, not a tempo, dynamo.
Another poor all around performance, but great goal. He's had 3/6 passes in first 40 minutes which tells you everything about his game with such a goal.
Such a brilliant finish, incredibly difficult skill but executed absolutely perfectly
Love Bruno
Love Bruno
- Status