[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Nobody is asking him to have a role that no other player plays. I'm just arguing that with two other competent CMs we'll become a much better team and Bruno's strengths will far outweigh his weaknesses. It's not a wild claim either consider we've literally seen it happen already, multiple times. The problem has been that it's been reliant on "good Fred" turning up, or Casemiro producing one of his increasingly rare world class performances and/or Eriksen also rolling back the years. Or - once in a blue moon - McT working out how to get on the ball and influence the game. So we've only very occasionally produced top class team performances over the last couple of years. It just seems so obvious to me that our problems in midfield begin and end with the players in deeper positions and trying to single out Bruno as the main problem is badly missing the point.

If we're talking about short-term results - stop the bleeding, patch up the defensive transitions and focus on plugging holes because he's in his element when the game is stretched and his passes/movement always aim at that - i will agree with you. It's not just him, Rashford is the same type of player. If the goal is to just save our season, by all means, do just that. But when balance is what is required, these two are a nightmare to accommodate. Bruno is an attacker/SS who wants to occupy a midfield role, and Rashford is a forward that wants to occupy a wide midfielder/winger's position on the pitch. For me, that's a problem. For you (and others), it's not. Let's agree to disagree. But it's not about blaming one player or the other. I never claimed that he's not trying his best.

I'm suggesting that, if constantly going back to the drawing board to find solutions results in the McFred partnership and relying on "good Fred" showing up, then you have a broader issue. Since ETH's experiment with his starting position out-wide or deeper (in games we expect to have the lion's share of possession), there's a weird notion that we're asking him to do things he doesn't want to do. He always looks busy, he always puts a shift in and he always wants to be near the ball. Coming into deeper positions and/or moving in the wide areas to get on the ball is something he's always done. In transitional moments, he's lethal. In normal play, he often gets out of position to force the issue because he can't play on the half-turn, he can't protect/recycle the ball under pressure and in tight spaces well and he needs space to turn around and do his thing.

So, he needs that "free" role. But if you put two defensive midfielders behind him, in the long-term, teams will adjust to him being the sole threat from the central channels and will shut him down. Then, as we saw under Solskjaer, we'll look completely clueless against set defences at worst, or he'll start trying things to force the issue at best. On both occasions, the ceiling for the team is considerably low. I mean, think about it. You may see the crazy "logic" behind picking McT and what ETH (thinks he's) trying to "avoid". My answer to that would be us trying to play more nuanced football. For others, it is doubling down as a transitional side. ETH is apparently a fan of the latter approach. It will probably leave him without a job sooner rather than later, but what do i know?

 

[NZT-One]

The point being made that when he’s able to have a free role behind our front three he’s an incredibly effective creative force. Which we’ve seen throughout our CL campaign. In the league he’s been hampered by having to play different positions and generally fight fires in a messed up system. We don’t need a midfield of three Kobbie Mainoo’s but even one of them dramatically improves us. If/when we get McT out of the team and replace him with someone more competent to partner Mainoo we’ll see the best of Bruno. Which we’ve been gettting glimpses of over the last two games.

Which games would that be? Everton and Galatasaray? I thought, both games weren't great at all by Bruno. Yesterday he was good and in Goodison Park, he was also alright but come on, overall those weren't good team performances in terms of performances. I also don't know if it still works out like this - two DMs and an AM. Times might have changed, a certain degree of fluidity is needed to deal with pressing structures.

He's not a midfielder though. Never has been, never will be. He can "do a job" just as Lindelof can do a job as a fullback, but this can't possibly be the plan A. He is a really prolific attacking midfielder and it's 100% on ETH that he is pushing him into more CM role with arguably more defensive duties than Scott feckin McTominay has at the moment.

That is my take as well. I am not the greatest fan of Bruno in general but I am certainly not a fan of him playing deeper than necessary. Especially not to accomodate fecking McTominay.

Weghorst did absolutely not have movement, and he was very slow too. Højlund has excellent movement in and around the box, but somehow Bruno is never able to find him. What striker would be world class if his team mates can't create enough chances for him?

We'd make Kane look like a fool in this team.

Who is this world class striker you're talking about?

Of course its Kane. There are so many users out there thinking we made a mistake by not bringing in a 100 million striker that is on the wrong side of 30 while at the same time trying to remedy the effect of almost 10 years of neglience footballing wise.

I'm suggesting that, if constantly going back to the drawing board to find solutions results in the McFred partnership and relying on "good Fred" showing up, then you have a wider problem. Since ETH's experiment with his starting position out-wide or deeper (in games we expect to have the lion's share of possession), there's a weird notion that we're asking him to do things he doesn't want to. He always looks busy, he always puts a shift in and he always wants to be near the ball. Coming into deeper positions and/or moving in the wide areas to get on the ball is something he's always done. In transitional moments, he's lethal. In normal play, he often gets out of position to force the issue because he can't play on the half-turn, he can't protect/recycle the ball under pressure and in tight spaces well and he needs space to turn around and do his thing.

So, he needs that "free" role. But if you put two defensive midfielders behind him, in the long-term, teams will adjust to him being the sole threat from the central channels and will shut him down. Then, as we saw under Solskjaer, we'll look completely clueless against set defences at worst, or he'll start trying things to force the issue at best. On both occasions, the ceiling for the team is considerably low. I mean, think about it. You may see the crazy "logic" behind picking McT and what ETH (thinks he's) trying to "avoid". My answer to that would be us trying to play more nuanced football. For others, it is doubling down as a transitional side. ETH is apparently a fan of the latter approach. It will probably leave him without a job sooner rather than later, but what do i know?

Very well said.

 

[Roux]

Nonsense. Second one, possibly. First one, no chance.

First one he made zero attempt to win the ball, he clipped the player from behind who was already passed him - this was after running the length of the field because he was frustrated at McTominay. He knew exactly what he was doing - its a blatant trip and the ball is nowhere near him! clip:

.

 

[Yagami]

He's so much better when he plays it simple instead of Hollywood. By no means great, but good for our current level.

On their first goal, I'm not going to criticise Bruno but the tactics in general. This is the problem with having one CM next to basically two 10s as McTominay is only visible in the final third. If we have Amrabat and a Mainoo or a disciplined Casemiro next to him behind a 10, we wouldn't be open enough to need Bruno sprinting all the way back like that in the first place. For this game, I understand going with McTominay as not to risk Mainoo, but I hope ten Hag realises that this just makes us too vulnerable defensively for it to be our go-to strategy.

I won't hold my breath, though. Our gameplan going into the season was obviously one CM behind two AMs. Casemiro, Mount and Bruno. With two of the three unavailable (though Mount rarely plays when fit regardless now), we still employ the same tactics with either Amrabat or Mainoo taking the CM role and McTominay taking the Mount one. It's a bit concerning that ten Hag is still sticking with this idea.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

The issue with Kane is that in the attacking phase, when we try to move the ball up on the pitch, he wants to occupy the same spaces as Bruno and be the prime mover. For similar reasons, the Sancho signing made little sense. Martial starting centrally and drifting toward the left half-space isn't anything special, but the few times the team's in synch it's a movement that creates openings for runs in-behind, which plays to Rashford and Bruno's strengths. Hojlund needs time to adjust, but i feel his primary function (not on the counter) will be what we saw in the first goal(s). Soaking up the pressure and harassing/dragging away the opposition centre-halves to give Bruno time and space to work his final-pass and shot magic. It won't be the partnership many envision. That's why Bruno not finding him often and Hojlund not scoring much isn't an issue... just yet. As for McT, him playing all the time is just a bad idea that i can't help but think derives from a weird notion (which i don't think it was initially ETH's) that, either deeper or further up the pitch, he can eventually become our own version of Lampard.

 

[Raven]

I'm sure ETH was looking to substitute McTominay but couldn't find him on the pitch.

 

[Raven]

Remind me, did we get out of our CL group when we set up like that and gave him the free role everybody thinks he should have?

Who were the 2 midfielders?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Who were the 2 midfielders?

Two between McT, Fred and Pogba. In tougher games, like Leipzig away, we often played three at the back also.

 

[Borys]

Which games would that be? Everton and Galatasaray? I thought, both games weren't great at all by Bruno. Yesterday he was good and in Goodison Park, he was also alright but come on, overall those weren't good team performances in terms of performances. I also don't know if it still works out like this - two DMs and an AM. Times might have changed, a certain degree of fluidity is needed to deal with pressing structures.


That is my take as well. I am not the greatest fan of Bruno in general but I am certainly not a fan of him playing deeper than necessary. Especially not to accomodate fecking McTominay.


Of course its Kane. There are so many users out there thinking we made a mistake by not bringing in a 100 million striker that is on the wrong side of 30 while at the same time trying to remedy the effect of almost 10 years of neglience footballing wise.


Very well said.

But this isn't a binary system. On paper we play one DM and two AMs, but neither of those AMs participate in the buildup. The point of this setup is that with clever movement one AM can pull the opposition around while the other AM drops to receive a ball deep, or they can both drop to create more passing options. But we rarely do that, in our setup it's just McTominay and Bruno occupying high positions. There isn't much "tactics" behind this.

We don't need two DMs, we need a proper box to box midfielder, one that can help in buildup, but also is sound defensively and can drive the ball forward. The problem is, Bruno is neither of those 3 things, what means we are already placing ourselves in difficult situation if he is one of the "#8s". And I personally think Mount is the right player for that position (a bit too attacking IMO, but he can do a decent job as B2B player just looking at his profile).
The number one problem though is Bruno +1 (whether that is Mount, or recently McTominay) play too high, they are not participating in the buildup from deep (we just don't do it now), and they are not helping enough defensively. More than 50% of this issue is how they are told to play football by our "coaching" staff.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

 

[Scandi Red]

I don't know what Bruno said, but I really doubt that he said "they" or "my team mates".

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't know what Bruno said, but I really doubt that he said "they" or "my team mates".

He was very careful to say we/us, even when they were asking about the mistakes that caused their first and second goals.

 

[Scandi Red]

He was very careful to say we/us, even when they were asking about the mistakes that caused their first and second goals.

Ex-United player talking bullshit again then... What did he expect? "We made some mistakes... BUT ESPECIALLY ME!"

 

[Raven]

Two between McT, Fred and Pogba. In tougher games, like Leipzig away, we often played three at the back also.

Do you not see the issue here?

 

[Lyng]

He was very careful to say we/us, even when they were asking about the mistakes that caused their first and second goals.

Sadly it seems Keane and Scholes have firmly made up their mind about Bruno.

 

[Scandi Red]

Sadly it seems Keane and Scholes have firmly made up their mind about Bruno.

Keane hates everyone, but I was under the impression that Scholes really rated Bruno. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Do you not see the issue here?

I do. I just don't believe that two better players whose primary function will be to cover for him will make the significant difference some want to believe. There's a reason why most top clubs have moved away from the maverick types in their midfields. He plays the game in a certain way and he's been here for four years. His numbers are good, but the stats indicate that there hasn't been any significant overall improvement since he joined. On either side of the pitch. It's better than Moyes and LvG but it's not far fetched to suggest that, if we didn't match the averages of the best teams when we had all of MMM in terrific form in front of him, we will possibly never will.

 

[Raven]

I do. I just don't believe that two better players whose primary function will be to cover for him will make the significant difference some want to believe. There's a reason why most top clubs have moved away from the maverick types in their midfields. He plays the game in a certain way and he's been here for four years. His numbers are good, but the stats indicate that there hasn't been any significant overall improvement since he joined. On either side of the pitch. It's better than Moyes and LvG but it's not far fetched to suggest that, if we didn't match the averages of the best teams when we had all of MMM in terrific form in front of him, we will possibly never will.

I get what you're saying. I'm not sure if Bruno is good enough in terms of decision making and consistency either but he's definitely proven that he's worth trying with functioning midfielders.

 

[Nickelodeon]

The fouls were silly but overall, his performances have become better. As a captain, we do expect maturity from our players to not give away unnecessary free kicks. I’m actually hoping that a Mainoo-Casemiro-Bruno midfield might be the balance we’re craving.

 

[MattofManchester]

Paul Scholes talking about stupid fouls.........

 

[Baxquux]

Paul Scholes talking about stupid fouls.........

Scholes was generally smart enough on the pitch to know where to (more often than not, given his tackling) foul. At least Bruno was tracking and didn't do it in the box when he attempted to tackle (unlike Scott on various occasions), but a lot of it stems from his being an undisciplined player who ETH's set-up at the moment doesn't accommodate very well. You need someone disciplined, clever and mobile, along with above-average on the ball, alongside Mainoo forming a protective and dynamic two man core, helped by proactive and technically good CB alongside FB knowing when to tuck in, for Bruno as free-man at 10 to work consistently.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Surely you only call this out when Ziyech slaps in an absolute worldie rendering Onana useless, and not Onana simply being useless, allowing Ziyech to score.

He’s hit two poor free kicks and they’ve both gone in, one hitting the keeper on the deck ffs.

It’s like Keane and Scholes follow a script when it comes to Bruno…

 

[tomaldinho1]

Classic Scholes. Great player, terrible pundit.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Surely you only call this out when Ziyech slaps in an absolute worldie rendering Onana useless, and not Onana simply being useless, allowing Ziyech to score.

He’s hit two poor free kicks and they’ve both gone in, one hitting the keeper on the deck ffs.

It’s like Keane and Scholes follow a script when it comes to Bruno…

Easy comments to make. To fault Bruno for the two goals is beyond stupid. Also had to make the first freekick, else it’d highly likely had become a big chance.

 

[Red in STL]

Fantastic assist + goal and some nice passes mixed with a few brainfart moments, so pretty much a typical Bruno performance.

I really liked what he did after our first goal as well, looked like was trying to stop Garnacho from taunting (or whatever the right word is) the home crowd and get on with the game. I don't like those sort of "celebrations" at any time but 11min in to an away game when you're 1 goal up is definitely not the time to start with that stuff, so good on Bruno for shutting it down.

Yes that was good captaincy ,Garnacho wasn't letting it go and was going to get booked but for Bruno there

 

[Red in STL]

Really? Then you don't expect much from a captain, and also, from an alleged midfielder. What is the role of a Captain? To provide a level of leadership, example, direction.

Bruno doesn't do this, he's a talented individual, which is fine, great at times. But he's no Captain. Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Rio.. VDS, Rooney, Van Persie.. Giggs... Neville.. these are Man Utd Captain's. If you don't have these characters (some may say the game has changed etc, fair enough..) then you need responsible players, who can manage a game. And when we play Bruno and SMT in our midfield, that's not setting a foundation for anything and that simply does not work. We see it time and time again.

He prevented Garnacho from getting booked after the lad scored, that was leadership, he tries to lead by example, he thinks the responsibility of creating everything is down to him, the problem is, if it's not Bruno who should it be?

 

[DJ Jeff]

Really? Then you don't expect much from a captain, and also, from an alleged midfielder. What is the role of a Captain? To provide a level of leadership, example, direction.

Bruno doesn't do this, he's a talented individual, which is fine, great at times. But he's no Captain. Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Rio.. VDS, Rooney, Van Persie.. Giggs... Neville.. these are Man Utd Captain's. If you don't have these characters (some may say the game has changed etc, fair enough..) then you need responsible players, who can manage a game. And when we play Bruno and SMT in our midfield, that's not setting a foundation for anything and that simply does not work. We see it time and time again.

I don't think Rooney or RVP were good captains at all but the rest fair enough

 

[Hammondo]

Disappears when we are under pressure.

 

[NZT-One]

He made a few good passes into space but also had a few weak attempts/failures at winning the ball. For the love of god, put him where McTominay is and bring Amrabat on. He is supposed to be decent with dictating play, there is no point in having Bruno do it only because we want to keep McTom on the pitch. It is crazy. And it doesn't work.

 

[Marwood]

Bruno was decent tonight when we actually had the ball. Same as Mainoo.

Problem is, we rarely had the ball.

 

[Copa Mundial]

Invisible tonight

 

[Rozay]

Having a good spell of form at the moment. Was decent today, although our midfield is a shambles. We play a 6, a 10 and nothing in between.

 

[Aint gota Kalou]

I feel sorry for him. At times the only one who has the required attitude and ability.

 

[#07]

He made a few good passes into space but also had a few weak attempts/failures at winning the ball. For the love of god, put him where McTominay is and bring Amrabat on. He is supposed to be decent with dictating play, there is no point in having Bruno do it only because we want to keep McTom on the pitch. It is crazy. And it doesn't work.

This. 100 per cent.

 

[Based Adnan]

Will never be a side capable of keeping hold of the ball over long periods with this guy

 

[Scandi Red]

He was OK. The sad part is that "OK" makes him one of our best today.

 

[edgecutter]

Wasn't great and wasn't the worse out there. Meh

 

[bosnian_red]

He's a quality player who is not helped by the managers decisions & system.

 

[lost7]

There was one pass in the first half to Garnacho he did with his left foot first time that split the defense open - that's Bruno at his very best, he's world class at chance creation.

Sadly he's a very limited player outside of that, even comparing him to his newcastle counterpart I felt like there was a gulf in technical/physical ability when it comes to first touch and holding the ball in tight spaces

 

[Borys]

I thought he was good last night. I wouldn't expect much more from him tbh considering how Newcastle annihilated us, we really had no answer for that.