Yup.
I really think is broken for good though. Spanish government only can reunite catalonia through more repression
Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain
- Thread starter barros
- Start date
I really think is broken for good though. Spanish government only can reunite catalonia through more repression
Roman empire weapon.
Have your ever heard about Grupos Antiterroristas de Liberación (GAL)?
Actually santi mesut is right. That weapon is a roman weapon (not galic) and is called Fasces, that it derives the name Fascio and Fascism. Curiousity. They definetely pict it up from the Mussolini Fascio.
Anyway, it does not matter, Guardia Civil was used over and over to repress in the past and the structure never changed. After all is a military police that interacts daily with the civil population. I don´t know if it exist anything like that in europe
Anyway, it does not matter, Guardia Civil was used over and over to repress in the past and the structure never changed. After all is a military police that interacts daily with the civil population. I don´t know if it exist anything like that in europe
Of course. That spanish governments, so proud of the constitution and the law, they didn´t mind to secretely fund a ilegal paramilitar group to kill terrorists
also, the fasces, had been adopted in other corps like in Italy, norway, EEUU and much others
I am optimistic. I think we're better together, and I do not want Catalonia separating.
I think that this day had to arrive, Spain recovering some presence in Cataluña, where had disappeared and for the Catalans to show their anger.
I think Cataluña is better with Spain than without it, despite the lack of pacto fiscal.
Under a socialist government. Not many know about this obscure page in the history of Spain.
"Felipe Gonzalez's past is dirty". I understand spanish.
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This is so naive. Unless you go 'full Erdogan on Kurds', Cataluna is already lost. Every time in Europe there is some separative organized movement and the country tries to stop it by force, things just become worse. The result is separation, just that many more people suffer.
Spain should have tried to emulate UK in this case, not Yugoslavia.
Years of uncertainty and legal negotiations destabilizing an economy that hasn't exactly been doing great. Join the EU? Catalunya would need unanimous approval by all member states, plenty of states will be against and then you'd have to get Spain's vote on top of that. At the same time, over 60% of the Catalan export has been going to EU countries, what's the solution for this? There's the Spanish national debt issue - over 15% óf the debt is Catalunya's.
While I'm typing this, I realise I don't even understand what valuta will be used in this new indepedent country. Countries like the Vatican can use the Euro without being member of the EU/Eurozone, but it's not likely at all they will grant this privilege to Catalunya. It's also easy to forget there's still millions of Catalan people who are not in favour of independence. If you combine the potential economic backlash with a signficant part of the Catalan people being against seperation, you have a good recipe for a lot of trouble.
-I am optimistic. Good
-I think we're better together. Not now, we could if too many things would change. But is a respectable opinion
-I do not want Catalonia separating.I understand the feeling and is a respectable opinion
-I think that this day had to arrive, Spain recovering some presence in Cataluña, where had disappeared. The presence of Spain in Catalunya only grew year by year, and there is nothing wrong in it, but lots of them want the independence too now
-for the Catalans to show their anger. I think is pretty normal
-I think Cataluña is better with Spain than without it, despite the lack of pacto fiscal. I repeat, not now, could be and not for many, but the pacto fiscal is quite irrelevant, I just want transparency and fairness, better off regions have to contribuite to the less fortuntate, but it has to be accountable and fair.
-I think we're better together. Not now, we could if too many things would change. But is a respectable opinion
-I do not want Catalonia separating.I understand the feeling and is a respectable opinion
-I think that this day had to arrive, Spain recovering some presence in Cataluña, where had disappeared. The presence of Spain in Catalunya only grew year by year, and there is nothing wrong in it, but lots of them want the independence too now
-for the Catalans to show their anger. I think is pretty normal
-I think Cataluña is better with Spain than without it, despite the lack of pacto fiscal. I repeat, not now, could be and not for many, but the pacto fiscal is quite irrelevant, I just want transparency and fairness, better off regions have to contribuite to the less fortuntate, but it has to be accountable and fair.
Maybe, but this referendum wasn´t fair from the beginning. It could be Yugoslavia in some years. Hopefully not
I remember when i went to Costa Brava in 1997. When i crossed the border between France and Catalunya it said "Welcome to Catalunya", not Spain.
My father was a good friend of Amedo, one of the responsibles.They used to play cards with the coffee. My father was in shock when he was arrested. I also met him being a kid. He didn´t look like a killer of terrorists.
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Had to be a shock I want to read some books about this obscure page in the history of Spain.
Frankly I am mostly not driven by economic reasons, but for many everything reduces to that. So be it
Catalan GDP per capita iss above average than EU. Not being inside the EU? is not the end of the world. There are countries outside that they are doing just fine.
Then catalonia's debt. Catalonia's debt is minimal, 15% of that debt would be for catalunya if going outside Spain would be mutually agreed. If it is not agreed, the Spanish debt says "kingdom of spain". The creditors would go to spain, not catalonia, and most of catalan own debt is with the spanish government. Not independence agreement, means only 20% of debt over the GDP, the lowest in europe. You want us to accept the debt? we can talk about EU (that for other none economical reasons I am not dying to be in, frankly).
Then, if you put a border in catalonia, what happens with all the products that goes through catalonia in and out of spain? most of them passes through roads, rails and port of Barcelona. Sure spain can redirect it, and long run new roads and others infrastructures. Do you think is in their best interest putting borders there? and for France?
How you cn avoid catalunya to use euro? panama is using the euro, ecuador and el salvador didn´t ask permision to US. You just need to buy the currency and we already have it. EU, in case that they would be interested in that (that they would not be) would have virtually no power to avoid it.
And yes, the last part is true, Nobody said it would be easy, but Catalonia has the potential to not have any problems to succeed economically speaking.
And the truth is that at the end of the day, nobody knows what would happen, there are too many variables. It is true that economically speaking is better to be in a big block, but is true as well that spain is draining to much resources from our economy, so is a matter to know if it would compensate the loses of being inside Spain and EU in terms of trading with the resources not drain by the spanish state (recognized by the spanish government itself).
I agree that it's the fault of the government in Madrid, that this is not done properly.
Still that doesn't give anyone the right to use a skewed referendum to push one's agenda. No voters have to have equal chances and they don't have that at the moment.
That's what I find worrying. Pro-Independence didn't have a majority in the past and only has a marginal/small one now due to all the repression. I find it very hard to believe that the majority of people are committed to the cause. Many are just protest voters who can change their mind again fast. Your view isn't shared by many people. You shouldn't pretend that everyone is on your side.
The 'independence alliance" has also very different ideas about the future path of an independent Catalonia. We saw something simar with brexit (united against something but not for something with a lot of volatility).
The Spanish government and the people who called this referendum need a word with themselves.
Skewed? they campaigned for the yes, if the No does not present themselves because THEY DON´T WANT is not our fault. If you go in a match nd your contender does not come, they give you the victory. We even campaign for the people that would say no to go to vote! what else do you wnat.
You are right, it was residual, but it grew after PP effort to destroy the statute 2006 and then the backlash of the crisis. Sure there is protest vote, some can be convinced back, some they are really fed up. I don´t pretend that everybody would be at my side, that would be delusional. I just want what the majority want, whatever is the result.
Then yes, the coalition has different kind of viewings, but is normal. You can't pretend to do a independent country with only right wing people or only left wing. Has to be transversal, everykind of people has to be in, if not does not make any sense and again would be delusional.
We just want to decide, and accept whatever is the result for at least till I die.
So ok, my question to the people. Is easy to say what Catalonia SHOULD NOT DO, not do that unilateral referendum. So, taking in acount how PP is acting, that PSOE mostly agrees with it, Ciudadanos agrees 100% (so we are speaking 70-80% of Spanish parliament). So being realistic:
- What Catalonia should do?
Some options like:
- Shut up and go home
- Sell Messi to Real Madrid in exchange of a referendum
- Another answer
- What Catalonia should do?
Some options like:
- Shut up and go home
- Sell Messi to Real Madrid in exchange of a referendum
- Another answer
A periodist voting twice,in 2 different placer
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Barcelona asked LaLiga not to play the game. LaLiga had denied the petition. Barcelona will not play anyway. Will be consequences with point penalties
You should get more money.I agree that you pay a lot and could receive more(although madrileños or valencianos also pay a lot.)
Some self criticism with the "proces" would be fine too.
Some partial deal as Euskadi could be acceptable to give you the control of your money
In that way your own politicians will steal It and you won't blame to los fachas.
I would control a bit more the education. The "invaders" or "those from Spain" are not nice things for kids, that will grow with a wrong idea.
Is it what it have recounting with the informatic system, will be void.
Anyway, yes, it will be flawed, I am sure that they are testing that referendum precisely to deslegitimize it. But not different than spanish elections voting for the PP in galicia being dead. Whataboutism, but all elections are somewhat flawes or ask Al Gore or Hillary Clinton to.
I think the most iconic thing would be blockading the routes in and out of Catalonia.
Easy to do and can be done quite peacefully.
But I don't know
If this ruins my bet, should bar them for whole season. And then some!
I frankly do not care about more or less money, would be preferable because who would say not to money. What I am asking is transparency and accountability
The proces is not a unicorn shitting rainbows, that would be stupid. There are maniipulations, is flawed, and there is people that are authoritarist. But in my opinion, obviously biaised, the central government was utter sht, and at the end of the day, they are the iltimate responsibles, don´t they?
I would control a bit more the education of spain, teaching catalan in madrid or euskera in andalusia like it happens with french hear in brittish columbia in Canada or all the language system in Switzerland. Or having more catalan studies in universities outside catalunya because nowadays there are more in Germany or another countries than the rest of spain.
Till we can not feel spanish living our own culture, till spain does protect my culture instead of attacking like forbidding in the european parlament to make catalan (13 millions knows the language 4-5 millions use it daily while maltese (nothing against them) is 200.000) oficial in europe. When that happens, and I see a good attitude? feck the economy, I could be spanish without a problem
Oh, and I forgot Carvajal, I said REALISTIC
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What would happen with FC Barcelona if we do get independent Catalonia?
Read some months(years?) ago rumours that French would invite them into Ligue 1, but is that realistic? UEFA wouldn't just let them in...
Or, Catalon league?
Read some months(years?) ago rumours that French would invite them into Ligue 1, but is that realistic? UEFA wouldn't just let them in...
Or, Catalon league?
It has been handled shockingly, and the scenes of violence on the streets are horrifying to see, as well as the fascist gestures/songs from people at Cibeles Square, Madrid. Of course the corrupt government has handled it poorly, they handle most things that way, but the issue is that the opposition is just as inept and corrupt.
Each year this issue worsens and each year the central government has no idea what to do. This now is not a true referendum and neither was the so-called consultation a couple of years back. Only a true referendum will stop it I believe, the issue being that the Basques woulds surely push for their own. Catalunya would be hurt hugely both short + medium term by such a split and although nobody in Spain wants to mention or admit it, Spain would be hugely weaker without Catalunya.
I've lived here for 4 and a half years now, I'd give them a vote, I do think there is an unheard few who would reject independence, it's just that the screams for independence, as they tend to be, are deafening.
Each year this issue worsens and each year the central government has no idea what to do. This now is not a true referendum and neither was the so-called consultation a couple of years back. Only a true referendum will stop it I believe, the issue being that the Basques woulds surely push for their own. Catalunya would be hurt hugely both short + medium term by such a split and although nobody in Spain wants to mention or admit it, Spain would be hugely weaker without Catalunya.
I've lived here for 4 and a half years now, I'd give them a vote, I do think there is an unheard few who would reject independence, it's just that the screams for independence, as they tend to be, are deafening.
they are disgusting. Do you know that the antiriots squads in Spain are made by police volunteers in Spain? they looooove to hit, specially catalans
Defintely there are loooots of people that would vote No, but is a matter to know once and for all and stop this madness
Not realistic, poor catalan leagues and barcelona being and old glory like Ajax or worse, nothingham forest.
But frankly does not matter much in the big scheme
I know, but we're football site after all, so, expect some interest about that side.
Yeah, it's pretty hard for me to argue against that type of 'logic'. I obviously think it really will not work out like you described, hence my original concerns about the naivety regarding the economic consequences. But a day like today probably isn't the time for an economic analysis anyway. I wish you and everybody else involved good luck, because there will be very emotional times ahead. And I hope that after a while some form of common sense kicks in, leading to some form of compromise and relieving the current tensions.
That's what saves you, if not I would throw you a dangerous ballot box on the head, the nerve!I know, but we're football site after all, so, expect some interest about that side.