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Can't blame them. Those Italians definitely know their onion about defender.
I've been saying for ages that Smalling reminds me of the good old days of Serie A centerback. A pure art of defending.
Meanwhile, we might be looking for a new CB, or rely on a 21 y.o. CB with a few games experience at top flight.
I've been saying for ages that Smalling reminds me of the good old days of Serie A centerback. A pure art of defending.
Meanwhile, we might be looking for a new CB, or rely on a 21 y.o. CB with a few games experience at top flight.
I can't imagine Smalling and his lack of creativity in the present side with McTominay and Fred infront of him. The few line breaking passes that happen appear to come from Maguire, Rojo, Axel or Lindelöf stepping up and bypassing the midfield.
He's a good solution for some team, it definitely isn't United unless Scholes and Carrick are infront of him.
I can. It was the same last year and we played same shite with or without Smalling on the pitch. The creativity comes from midfield and attacking players, not defenders.
@A-man - my own observations from watching United this season have clearly shown there is no such decrease in grabbing being called. In the Alkmaar game when Rojo brought down a player in the box, ref seemed to be looking right at it and nothing. That would have been a perfectly acceptable call, especially if as you say the climate is changing and refs are actively trying to clamp down on defenders fouling in the box. Game after game in the PL we still see it.
If just giving random "facts" based on watching loads of football, I'd say there is now even a greater increase in fouls called on attackers. I base this fact (not really a fact) that I know refs do not want to be controversial and deciding games by giving penalties, so now if 2 opposing players are going at it in the box, the attacker gets called even if the defender is the one more at fault.
When it comes to Smalling, maybe not you but, many of his detractors, they were adamant that he'd be giving away penalties with the introduction of VAR. This is despite the fact that in European leagues where it was already in use that it has been extremely rare for what he does and ignoring the fact that when Smalling did play in games with VAR, such as the Chelsea game last season and there was one of these "Smalling being Smalling" moments that was reviewed and not given.
I completely agree that Smalling is one of those defenders that is always at risk for the way he defends with all the grabbing he does but, it is not that much more than 100s of other defenders that do the same and rarely get called. He's been at it for over 10 years and I honestly can't remember him ever getting one against him.
If just giving random "facts" based on watching loads of football, I'd say there is now even a greater increase in fouls called on attackers. I base this fact (not really a fact) that I know refs do not want to be controversial and deciding games by giving penalties, so now if 2 opposing players are going at it in the box, the attacker gets called even if the defender is the one more at fault.
When it comes to Smalling, maybe not you but, many of his detractors, they were adamant that he'd be giving away penalties with the introduction of VAR. This is despite the fact that in European leagues where it was already in use that it has been extremely rare for what he does and ignoring the fact that when Smalling did play in games with VAR, such as the Chelsea game last season and there was one of these "Smalling being Smalling" moments that was reviewed and not given.
I completely agree that Smalling is one of those defenders that is always at risk for the way he defends with all the grabbing he does but, it is not that much more than 100s of other defenders that do the same and rarely get called. He's been at it for over 10 years and I honestly can't remember him ever getting one against him.
Does our 80m CB signing increase our creativity or passing to render Scholes and Carrick useless in this team? In fact, what CB in this world could make those two are not needed in this team.
You're right @Ekeke
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Why would we negotiate a price now?
Surely he'll be worth more and more then longer he's there and the more games he plays (well) in.
Hope we stick to him at least until the new manager is in. A pure no nonsense defender. Far better than Jones,Rojo,Lindelof ,Bailey.
So we're supposed to just trust a random person's observations that there's less grabbing at corners and such now with no evidence to back that up other than their own biases. Brilliant.
To answer that with a question, do you think Maguire's distribution would be useless in a team with Scholes and Carrick? Why not have all three and not Smalling?
I've never said useless. But why would you need your centerbacks as the main source of creativity in your team? Why not just getting creative midfielders, and let your centerbacks to function as defenders?
Because opposing team can set up to press your midfield and close down fast.
Agreed. Better having players at centre half that can be comfortable on the ball. Smalling is a good defender in the purest sense of the word, but not good enough on the ball for me.
Forget last season. Look at this season, when was the last time any of Maguire or Lindelof really played those creative ball playing defender passes that even lead to a slight sniff of an opportunity let alone a goal. Having ball playing CBs was touted as being the solution for when defenses get packed and our midfielders are being occupied, being able to to bring the ball out the back, break the lines etc etc. - all well and good for the long term but, pointless till we actually sort out in training the requirement movement and patterns to allow for us to be able to use.
In a team like City, having Stones type CB because they possess the ball so much and also their squad/training is very good, that having is ball playing capability outweighs his his deficiencies as a pure defender. For us, at the moment a player like Lindelof next to Maguire doesn't gain us anything and for the short term actually makes us a little more vulnerable. Maybe Ole and club are willing to accept that for the short term, with the hope that with experience he'll be come become better
Can't hide my bias because I am one of those that wants my CBs to be excellent defenders first and foremost, which I think Smalling is. I also accept that he is not the prototypical modern day CB in a very good top team. But, we are not a top team but, in name. It is going to take time for us to get back there. Getting our defense solid was definitely at the tops of the list but, it was jumping the gun to try and be something we are not.
We're still playing Rojo and Jones, and got rid of Smalling. Another crazy decision in a long line.
I'm glad Smalling has got his career back on track, seems his reputation is being reinstated which is great. He seems a top guy also.
I'm glad Smalling has got his career back on track, seems his reputation is being reinstated which is great. He seems a top guy also.
They did, and Scholes & Carrick would play around being pressed because they are good midfielders.
CBs can be setup to be pressed too. A lot of chances this season have come from teams having their defenders pressed and trying to overplay, leading to a turnover in the final third
Scholes could because he was a lot more mobile in his prime and an expert at getting himself open by playing short quick passes. Carrick always had an issue with athletic quick opponents not letting him have time on the ball. It also helped that those teams had Rooney or Park who weren't afraid to drop deeper to collect the ball.
It is true that defenders get pressed as well, this is why you need center backs who can shift the ball forward quickly, something Smalling struggles with because he always needs more than a touch to set himself up before making basic passes.
Smalling with Maguire right now would be a good combo. He was the last CB I wanted to see moved on. Glad the move is working for him he's always seemed committed and all the worry about his holding wouldn't have made a difference the way VAR is being used for penalties at the moment. All the best Mike
I think we ll get around 15 to 20 m for him
He was our best central defender at the club before we signed Maguire. I am not surprised he is doing alright at Roma. He has his flaws, but he would still be our second best CB at the club. Its strange we've loaned him out and will probably sell him, given how crap and injury prone our other central defenders are as well as question marks over Lindelof. If we sign a defender in the summer, it won't be an issue, but we almost certainly won't, and will therefore see much more of Rojo, Jones and Bailly well into next season.
Well no he doesnt, because you dont. Lindelof didnt pass the ball forward more than Smalling did last season. He rarely finds a good pass forward.
There are occasional times when he does try to find a more progressive pass forward, or smacks a long ball forward thats generally not good enough to find a player and Smalling doesn't try these things as often. But thats why he's better under pressing than Lindelof is. Because Lindelof will take a risk thats simply not worth it, to take extra touches or try to be a bit clever now and again in areas that don't benefit the team much at all, because you're in your own defensive third 85% of the pitch away from the opponent's goal.
If you just need players willing to take a chance to move the ball forward all the time, even if they might get tackled or lose the ball then why does any team play a midfielder who retains the ball?
Why dont they have an entire midfield of people trying to play Pogba and Veron throughballs?
The answer is because a team has 10 outfield players and you want to strike the right balance. If you have all your players doing this, you won't have as much of the ball and that will invite pressure. So there is benefit to balancing your team with players who will keep the ball and not try to overachieve from where they are whilst taking risks, if you also have players who are going to be taking chances to make something happen and force the play. Someone like Pogba for example.
I would argue that a striker who is really good at closing down and tackling (and I mean, as good as a defender. Lets say AWB playing as a striker good) is more beneficial to the team than a CB who is happy to dribble forward a bit, or play a risky pass now and again that might get intercepted losing the ball in a dangerous area.
Why?
The tackling striker, when he is successful, has a chance either on goal or a great chance to play a teammate through on goal.
A CB on the occasion that they do go past a player from CB, or play a risky pass into midfield thats done very well still doesn't even do half the job of setting up the chance or a goal for a teammate.
Nobody is playing a striker who is an elite tackler and interceptor to try and win the ball in the opponent's final third. Because usually the first function of a striker, to finish chances and make things happen up front when the team has the ball is considered the most important thing.
The same should be the case with CBs. You have 9 other players on the pitch to balance out someone being a really good defender but not the best on the ball. And thats for 1 CB of that type. You could make it work with 2 of them as you'd still have 8 players, who then have less defensive responsibility who can focus more on being progressive and attacking because its been balanced out for them.
People are still making the "Smalling isn't good enough on the ball and hinders the teams attacking quality" argument?
Have they watched us play football this season.
Have they watched us play football this season.
First of all it was not me who said referees were actively trying to clamp down defenders. It was a directive given to the refs and there was a large debate at the time, as many penalties were given before defenders had adopted to it. I should add that it went both ways. The refs were also to make sure the attacking players didn’t hold or pull.
When it comes to your observation against Alkmaar I can only say I base my conclusion on having watched several matches per week over the last 3 decades. My opinion is that the ref punish this much more now than a few years back. As I wrote, Webb also confirmed that VAR has got that effect.
I don’t make up this because I dislike Smalling. It is common knowledge that Smalling’s way of defending includes a lot of holding and pulling. I believe he does because he most of the time gets away with it. If he doesn’t any longer, I expect him to be smart enough to adapt. However he will loose one of his favourite weapons.
I hear what you saying but I disagree. Being able to stay calm at the back under pressure is part of defending. Playing your way out instead of clearing the ball is also defending. Last season I think that Smalling had many moments where he just headed the ball back to the opponent team, instead of controlling it or head it to a team mate.
The ball playing ability at the back is not only to play through the line or hit great longballs. It is also about keeping the ball within the team. Possession is a great way of defending. Not loosing the ball under pressure is good defending. Not hoofing it randomly under pressure is good defending.
If you look at conceded goals, City have the same result as United in the PL so far. I don’t expect it to stay that way, but right now it is a fact.
I agree. It is not about making forward, line-breaking passes for a CB. More importantly today is dealing with pressure. Smalling dont do that well at all. And that is why he is not at an average team in Italy.
Michael Cox wrote a piece in The Athletic on Man Utds vs Liverpool. Its called How United isolated Liverpools full-back to win the tactical battle. He highlight how well Lindelof handled the pressure from Liverpools attackers. Smalling was awful in these situations. It is a good piece, well worth a read.
Smalling has suddenly gone from being Phil Jones to Maldini on here.
He's a decent defender but he's miles off being an elite defender. He was probably England's 7th or 8th choice central defender while he was here.
Smalling is a clear step lower than Maguire and Tuanzebe in quality, and about the same level as Lindelof. Smalling was sacraficed instead of Lindelof due to age.
He's a decent defender but he's miles off being an elite defender. He was probably England's 7th or 8th choice central defender while he was here.
Smalling is a clear step lower than Maguire and Tuanzebe in quality, and about the same level as Lindelof. Smalling was sacraficed instead of Lindelof due to age.
Wow okay let him go. Finalise the price and agreement early.
Spot on. Also I think in Serie A there's less pressing from the forwards on defenders, which works in favour of Smalling.
Anyway I m happy for him because he s been a model pro, on and off the field.
Naah, better settle on a price now. Strike when it's hot.
It's more likely his value drops after some more games. Roma will eventually realise his limitations.
Raising funds for the winter transfer window.
Just my assumption :
We have around 30 million left from Summer window assuming Net Spent budget was 100m)
Add 15-20 m for Smalling and maybe 10 m for Matic.
That leaves us with around 55 to 60 million for January window.
Do you mind sharing it?
It's far too early to say Tuanzebe is clearly better than Smalling. Obviously we all hope that it works out that way, but so far there is very little to make that judgement on.
In terms of pure defensive ability, Smalling is better than any of our other defenders. Probably comfortably so. Maguire moves ahead of him as the whole package, but there can be a decent argument made that Smalling would not only be our 2nd best on the individual level, but would also be the best partner for Maguire.
Depends on what they offer. 15 - 20 million is a fraction of what it'd cost to replace him. 40m could be tempting if i had any faith in our ability to get in someone better, but i don't.
Age is not in his side. Cannot see many 30 year old defenders going for 40 million
Yeah but with him we'd be worse.People are still making the "Smalling isn't good enough on the ball and hinders the teams attacking quality" argument?
Have they watched us play football this season.
Instead of being 14th in the premier league we'd be 6th like Roma
Wait that cant be right, its impossible to play football and get points with Smalling in the team. He's a "liability". Must be a bug where it says Roma have scored 2 more goals than we have.
Absolutely, dealing with pressure is critical, especially in the PL where it is very intense pressure. And imo the four at the back have been quite good at that so far this season, and that is one of the reason why there have not been so many opportunities for the opponent teams.
It’s tempting to think that Smalling arrived at Rome and saved Roma. But facts are that they finished 6th place last year. Facts are also that they had an even better outcome before his arrival. So far Roma have played 8 matches of which Smalling has played 4. The first 4 without him: 8 points, no losses. The 4 with Smalling: 5 points, 1 loss. Those are the results. Now reports say he has played very well and apparently they him to sign for them, so all is good. But we shouldn’t think they were totally hopeless without him.
They werent. But we finished 6th too. So we're both 6th placed teams, with far more investment coming in at United than at Roma. We're buying a CB for £80 million, they're finding their best CB by taking him on loan for a season. In fact I think we can argue Roma's use of the loan market to suppliment their outright purchases is one of the better uses out there this season. They got Smalling at CB and Veretout who is a good CM and was Fiorentina's best CM last season. They took Miki on loan from Arsenal too, even if that one doesnt end up working I'm sure the other 2 will. Granted they are in holding position from last season so far so I can see them pushing on above Cagliari and perhaps fighting out with Atalanta and Napoli for 3rd or 4th.
And we've dropped to 14th while they're still currently 6th. Its obviously more complicated than that but the idea that you can't play better football than we are now with Smalling in the team is clearly ridiculous. They're currently a better team than we are. And we were a better team in the past 2 seasons where Smalling was a regular at CB. We could obviously have done well with him continuing to be a regular, we wouldnt be playing worse than we currently are because we're awful. Worse than when he played.
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