CL 19/20 Group Stages: Week 6 (Last Round)

Cloud7

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Why? Even on paper, there are better teams with better managers.
On paper is where PSG are strongest. It’s real life where they end up bottling it, but on paper they have a top 3 squad in the world, and Tuchel is a quality manager. I still don’t think they’ll win it and they’ll end up getting knocked out in the round of 16, but on paper they are definitely in the favorites conversation.
 

kouroux

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On paper is where PSG are strongest. It’s real life where they end up bottling it, but on paper they have a top 3 squad in the world, and Tuchel is a quality manager. I still don’t think they’ll win it and they’ll end up getting knocked out in the round of 16, but on paper they are definitely in the favorites conversation.
I agree with this. With some luck, they have a chance
 

Sayros

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If PSG stay healthy, and with this renewed midfield, I can see them shocking the world by actually not bottling it up like in years past. Even if Neymar gets injured, just in time for his sister's birthday, I don't think it would derail them much. I've said it before, but what Leonardo has done with the situation he came into this summer is nothing short of spectacular and one of the greatests summer in recent transfer history.
 

FootyCrew

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PSG literally always do this in the group stages. Feels like it happens every year then they manage to find a more incredible way to get eliminated in the knockouts than in the previous year.
Yeah.

Im wondering against who are they gonna bottle this season.

Leverkusen? Tottenham? Lyon?

I don't know, every season it gets worse for PSG bottling, just like ManCity.
 
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Sayros

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You know PSG was trolling Real as soon as Eric Choup Moting was the first sub off the bench.
 

hasanejaz88

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Yeah. It's the first CL match, they lost their last game 4-0, I can totally see why he went with Baumgartlinger to get a sense of security and build confidence, especially since the first choice alternative - Demirbay - is out injured. Favre does this all the time as well, starting with Witsel + Weigl/Delaney, taking a risk averse approach, trying to build momentum and tire the opposition via possession, only introducing a more attacking CM later on if needed.

A lot of people will pick on Bosz's subs, but Bellarabi, while lacking end product, was probably still Leverkusen's best attacker today.
Amiri was terrible against Dortmund and didn't accomplish a whole lot when he was eventually brought on for Baumgartlinger either.
The most questionable thing perhaps was not bringing on Weiser, who offers a lot more in attack than Bender.

People are so happy to throw around "found out", but I think it's mostly a question of individual quality. At the moment they don't convert the chances/spaces that his football creates and they make costly mistakes at the back. The game against Dortmund for example was relatively even and decided by Leverkusen's players messing up their counters, while Dortmund didn't hesitate to punish Leverkusen's/Wendell's misplaced passes.
His football can be quite demanding on his players and at the moment they can't deliver consistently enough for it to work. Of course it's fair to ask whether he needs (and is able) to make adjustments to lower that kind of exposure (e.g. introducing Baumgartlinger), but I wouldn't say he's been found out.
It's just the nature of such an approach that in the end you have to rely on individual quality. Even Klopp and Guardiola had some defensive issues, before they spent hundreds of millions on their defense.
The found out thing is just me ranting, I wasn't a fan of his when he was at Dortmund so I'l be biased against him at Leverkusen as well, though I really enjoyed watching them under him last season.

With regards to Baumgartlinger, I think it's wrong to compare Witsel-Delaney because Witsel provides a lot more in attack than Aranguiz does. Last season Baumgartinger only come into the side (under Bosz) when Bellarabi got injured and so Havertz had to move to the right, otherwise Bosz was playing with both Brandt and Havertz in central midfielder. Therefore Bosz does believe playing only Aranguiz is enough cover defensively.

That being said, had all been fit obviously Demirbay would've played for Baumgartlinger. Though, it still doesn't excuse Bosz's poor substitutes, first with not replacing Baumgartlinger sooner (and Amiri made a fantastic save from the keeper right at the end so I don't think he didn't do anything). Bellarabi was no fecking way Bayer's best attacker, he ruined countless attacks by constantly hitting the first man while crossing, it was one of the most pathetic displays of crossing I can think of lately. He should've been off much sooner (Diaby was on the bench so they could have played him).

You are correct about Weiser as well, overall my point is that Bosz got his tactics completely wrong. He was much too passive after going down a goal and 1) waited too long to get the subs on and 2) didn't make the right subs.
 

OutlawGER

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Klopp wasn't regarded by many here to be on Guardiola's level until he won the UCL last season, Tuchel did really well at Dortmund and I think can reach the level of Klopp if given time. Certainly is a very talented manager.
Tuchel will never reach Klopps level but he is still a great manager.
 
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The Dutch still have a form of Teletext?
Yeah, not all channels have it anymore though. On the public broadcasters (NPO 1, 2 and 3) it is basically a copy of NOS.nl articles. In fact, it’s available online and as a smartphone app (about a million users) and on Telegram as well:

Http://www.teletekst.nl

Some of the commercial channels still had their own Teletext till recently as well: RTL seized its RTL Text operations in 2017 and SBS in 2018, though they still offer subtitles through that service I think. Not sure, since I never use it.
 

do.ob

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The found out thing is just me ranting, I wasn't a fan of his when he was at Dortmund so I'l be biased against him at Leverkusen as well, though I really enjoyed watching them under him last season.

With regards to Baumgartlinger, I think it's wrong to compare Witsel-Delaney because Witsel provides a lot more in attack than Aranguiz does. Last season Baumgartinger only come into the side (under Bosz) when Bellarabi got injured and so Havertz had to move to the right, otherwise Bosz was playing with both Brandt and Havertz in central midfielder. Therefore Bosz does believe playing only Aranguiz is enough cover defensively.

That being said, had all been fit obviously Demirbay would've played for Baumgartlinger. Though, it still doesn't excuse Bosz's poor substitutes, first with not replacing Baumgartlinger sooner (and Amiri made a fantastic save from the keeper right at the end so I don't think he didn't do anything). Bellarabi was no fecking way Bayer's best attacker, he ruined countless attacks by constantly hitting the first man while crossing, it was one of the most pathetic displays of crossing I can think of lately. He should've been off much sooner (Diaby was on the bench so they could have played him).

You are correct about Weiser as well, overall my point is that Bosz got his tactics completely wrong. He was much too passive after going down a goal and 1) waited too long to get the subs on and 2) didn't make the right subs.
Yeah, sure Dortmund's players are better, but on a strategic level Favre's principle is still to go with a cautious approach, even against actual minnows. Leverkusen's biggest problem are their own mistakes, so he picked someone who offers cover and experience.
You mention the Aranguiz, Brandt and Havertz setup and had he benched Brandt I would totally understand that kind of criticism, but Brandt isn't at the club anymore, Demirbay is injured and so he would have had to start Amiri, who was so bad against Dortmund he had to be taken off at half time.
Don't forget that having Baumgartlinger on the field actually freed up Araguiz to venture forward and e.g. score/force the first goal. And while Amiri had that chance in the end I didn't see bossing the midfield either. Maybe it would've been better to bring Amiri on earlier, maybe it wouldn't but that's not why they lost the game.
Bellarabi was the main man in Leverkusen's offense, almost every attack went through him, almost every Leverkusen attack happened on the right. He had 6 successful dribbles, the rest of the midfield/attack had 4 combined, he had 4 key passes, the rest of the midfield/attack had 5 combined. Now I'm not saying he had a great game or that he didn't ruin quite a few moves himself, but he was the only one who made something happen, to say Bosz clearly had to take him off for Diaby who quite obviously isn't deemed ready for a bigger role yet is armchair management of the purest form imho.
 

hasanejaz88

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Yeah, sure Dortmund's players are better, but on a strategic level Favre's principle is still to go with a cautious approach, even against actual minnows. Leverkusen's biggest problem are their own mistakes, so he picked someone who offers cover and experience.
You mention the Aranguiz, Brandt and Havertz setup and had he benched Brandt I would totally understand that kind of criticism, but Brandt isn't at the club anymore, Demirbay is injured and so he would have had to start Amiri, who was so bad against Dortmund he had to be taken off at half time.
Don't forget that having Baumgartlinger on the field actually freed up Araguiz to venture forward and e.g. score/force the first goal. And while Amiri had that chance in the end I didn't see bossing the midfield either. Maybe it would've been better to bring Amiri on earlier, maybe it wouldn't but that's not why they lost the game.
Bellarabi was the main man in Leverkusen's offense, almost every attack went through him, almost every Leverkusen attack happened on the right. He had 6 successful dribbles, the rest of the midfield/attack had 4 combined, he had 4 key passes, the rest of the midfield/attack had 5 combined. Now I'm not saying he had a great game or that he didn't ruin quite a few moves himself, but he was the only one who made something happen, to say Bosz clearly had to take him off for Diaby who quite obviously isn't deemed ready for a bigger role yet is armchair management of the purest form imho.
The fact that Leverkusen went exclusively down the right was the reason why their attacks failed, it was one-dimensional and predictable. He attempted 15 crosses and only connected with 3, Volland managed to connect with 2 of his 3 crosses (one of which went straight to Bellarabi, who botched his shot so much it ended being a cross for Havertz). What's the point of dribbling 6 times if you can't end up connecting with one of your crosses?

I don't think it's a compliment to say that someone was the main person in attack and therefore should've stayed on, when the attack failed so miserably. In your opinion it failed for 70 minutes but oh well lets try for 20 more minutes maybe he'l manage something decent? It's a blame straight at the manager for not trying anything different, what's the point of having Diaby (or Paulinho) on the bench if you're so under-confident of his abilities you won't even play him in that situation?
 

do.ob

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The fact that Leverkusen went exclusively down the right was the reason why their attacks failed, it was one-dimensional and predictable. He attempted 15 crosses and only connected with 3, Volland managed to connect with 2 of his 3 crosses (one of which went straight to Bellarabi, who botched his shot so much it ended being a cross for Havertz). What's the point of dribbling 6 times if you can't end up connecting with one of your crosses?

I don't think it's a compliment to say that someone was the main person in attack and therefore should've stayed on, when the attack failed so miserably. In your opinion it failed for 70 minutes but oh well lets try for 20 more minutes maybe he'l manage something decent? It's a blame straight at the manager for not trying anything different, what's the point of having Diaby (or Paulinho) on the bench if you're so under-confident of his abilities you won't even play him in that situation?
Again, I don't think Bellarabi was particularly great, but where is the logic in ripping up the only thing that gives you some kind of threat (and for most of the match Bellarabi really was the only one who made himself available in threatening positions and actually had the opportunity to cross a ball), just so you can say you made a change.
I mean you're not even adressing your weakness (the dead left flank) you're changing your "strongest" area.
Paulinho and Diaby are still kids, the latter is probably still settling in after moving over from France, as far as I'm aware neither has done anything of note at Leverkusen. You don't necessarily do yourself or them any favours if you just throw them into such a high pressure situation before they are ready.
 
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Again, I don't think Bellarabi was particularly great, but where is the logic in ripping up the only thing that gives you some kind of threat (and for most of the match Bellarabi really was the only one who made himself available in threatening positions and actually had the opportunity to cross a ball), just so you can say you made a change.
I mean you're not even adressing your weakness (the dead left flank) you're changing your "strongest" area.
Paulinho and Diaby are still kids, the latter is probably still settling in after moving over from France, as far as I'm aware neither has done anything of note at Leverkusen. You don't necessarily do yourself or them any favours if you just throw them into such a high pressure situation before they are ready.
I havn't seen the match so I can't comment on whether this was the case or not in this instance. I'm more making a general observation/remark.

There's a very effective strategy to make sure the weakest player on the opponent's team gets the most ball possession: you give him relatively more freedom by pressing the remainder of the team, making use of it being more 'natural' for your opponent to pass the ball to where there is a free player. Give them a specific option by making it seem appealing, while in effect you're controlling your opponent to some degree and making them more predictable. Thereby ensuring this weaker player gets the ball the most, so he can lose it the most. After all, if you can predict what's going to happen, setting up your defense according to a plan to thwart just that threat becomes easier. This may make that player seem like he's got a lot going on due to having a lot of ball possession and runs in comparison to other players, when in effect he's a liability. Or rather, the team fell for it and opts for that side rather than go up against a seemingly stronger flank as it seems better defended.

So in that sense, it's not necessarily a sign of strength if you get the ball a lot. Same if you cover a lot of ground, if you don't effectively "do" anything with covering that ground, you're just wasting energy.

Now, you could do two things: if you think the player is a liability, substitute him. Or, if you think the problem with the passes not arriving is not his fault, then you either substitute the players he needs to reach but aren't in the appropriate positions to be reached, or change strategy in placing players he needs to reach in places he can reach.

Either way, if he gave 15 crosses and only 3 arrived (20%), chances are the employed strategy wasn't working at all and he was just wasting a lot of time and energy in those ultimately ineffective runs.



Again though, I havn't seen it, but if you think he wasn't doing great, then maybe their opponent didn't mind him having the ball either.
 
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BobbyManc

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Having watched last night's highlights, can someone explain why VAR awarded Chelsea a penalty but not Atletico Madrid one for virtually identical incidents? I thought the handball rule as it's being applied by UEFA was crap but at least they were going to be consistent with it. Apparently not.
 

do.ob

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@FigmentOfYerImagination

I don't disagree with the general theory behind your post, but I don't think it applies to Leverkusen's game.
First of all Bellarabi is a very talented player with inconsistent decision making. You give him space and sometimes he squanders it, but other times he does something game changing, Volland on the other hand is much less talented in 1on1s, if you intentionally leave one of them with space out wide it would be him, because it's easier to close him down and contain him once he has the ball.

Leverkusen's attacking plan as a whole didn't work, crosses are only really reliable if you've already penetrated the defense to some degree and Leverkusen only accomplished this rarely. A lot of them were out of desperation, playing a hopeful cross into a static penalty area, because the alternative would have been to be passing it back and restarting their possession phase.
I think in such situations you have to strengthen other avenues of attack, to stretch the defense, as Bosz eventually did with Amiri in the center and perhaps could have done with Diaby for Volland (or Wendell), though whether the youngster would have been up for the occasion is another question entirely.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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I was disappointed by Havertz against Loko. Krychowiak(who at the step down in level has refound a very good form after the PSG disaster) and Barinov took him mostly out of the game, bullied him at times. Barinov looks to have a good amount of potential as a defensive midfielder. A great result for Loko especially away and missing their two most important attackers, though a more varied, organised attack from Leverkusen would have turned it around in the second half as the defence with ancient Corluka still starting faded.
 

giorno

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It's a big deal to play for the 1st team in CL. I'm sure they'll be much better in their next game.
Yep. In 11/12 BvB won the double, beat bayern home and away in the league and outright embarassed them in the cup final. Bayern lost the CL final to Chelsea in ridiculous fashion, but were clearly the best team in the CL.

BvB finished dead last in their CL group with arsenal, OM and Olympiakos, managing a grand total of 4 points

Pool spanks both PSG and City in the knockout rounds if they meet. Liverpool are giants in Europe and the others are weak minded wannabes
So very much this

On paper i think PSG have the best team in the world. But football is more than names on a sheet of paper, it's a team sport, played by human beings, fallible by definition

Btw, apparently yesterday was our worst performance in years in terms of distance covered. We were pathetic
 

GhastlyHun

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Lads, it's Bayern

I'll miss most of the match tonight, to make things worse (but maybe improve my evening).
 

GhastlyHun

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You not confident?
We've been solid..ish in the league so far, but so we were last season and that didn't translate to more than average performances in the CL, at best. Our game hasn't really evolved from that.
Seeing how Spurs are somewhat struggling right now, it can go either way.
 

Heinzesight

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When we played Barca in the quarters last season we had to play away first as the ‘authorities’ didn’t want us and City playing consecutive nights in Manchester.

How come it’s ok this week or it is a UEFA thing?
 

King Andow

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On now:

Atalanta XI: Gollini; Toloi, Masiello, Palomino; Hateboer, De Roon, Pasalic, Castagne; Ilicic, Zapata, Gomez (c).
Subs: Sportiello, Kjaer, Gosens, Muriel, Freuler, Malinovskyi, Djimsiti.

Shakhtar XI: Pyatov; Bolbat, Kryvtsov, Matviyenko, Ismaily; Alan Patrick, Stepanenko; Marlos, Kovalenko, Taison (c); Junior Moraes.
Subs: Shevchenko, Marcos Antonio, Dentinho, Konoplyanka, Solomon, Bondar, Dodo.
 

dwd

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When we played Barca in the quarters last season we had to play away first as the ‘authorities’ didn’t want us and City playing consecutive nights in Manchester.

How come it’s ok this week or it is a UEFA thing?
At a guess that might have more to do with away European fans.
 

Idxomer

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How many goals do Madrid concede every season because of Ramos playing attackers onside?