Club Sale | It’s done!

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nainaisson

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New opinion piece in The Guardian about the Qatari interest:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-from-manchester-united-than-glazers-ever-did

Qatari owners would take more from Manchester United than Glazers ever did
Jonathan Liew

Ownership by one of the world’s most savage governments would forever tarnish the legacy of Britain’s most famous club

Perhaps, in a way, this had to happen eventually. Football’s narrative arc demanded nothing less. The numbers simply made too little sense. Perhaps like Batman v Superman, Godzilla v Kong, the cronut, Manchester United and Qatar was simply a crossover concept begging to be brought into existence. Indulge me for a second. I’m thinking pre-season tours to Doha. I’m thinking an Mbappé/Rashford reality TV job-swap. I’m thinking luxury party barges on Manchester Ship Canal. A hologrammatic New Trafford to sit directly above the old one. A Phil Jones mural visible from space.

And so to the news that Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani – a private Qatari individual with no direct connection to Qatar itself, unless you churlishly count the fact that he is its head of state – is interested in purchasing United. Or perhaps simply a stake in United rather than a full takeover. Or, according to which report you read, not necessarily Thani himself but a fund linked to the royal family, or perhaps the Qatar Investment Authority sovereign wealth fund.

This is pretty much all we know at this stage, which one suspects is exactly how the Qataris want it. Interested enough to test the water, to perform due diligence, to gauge the reaction from fans and the wider game; deniable enough that they can still pull out. One potential sticking point appears to be the valuation of between £6bn and £8bn being imposed by the Glazer family. Once you add investment to the squad and the exorbitant cost of redeveloping Old Trafford and Carrington, you’re close to an 11-figure sum before you’ve even landed in the country.

In short: we are not talking another Paris here. It is easily forgotten amid the maelstrom that followed, but Qatar’s initial investment in Paris Saint-Germain was minuscule by comparison: an initial 70% stake that valued the club at less than £100m. Financially speaking, it was a no-brainer. Paris was a failing club with a knockdown price, enormous potential, unfettered access to one of the richest markets in Europe, no close rivals and a medium-strength league that could easily be brought to heel.

None of these advantages exists with United. For all the travails on the pitch, it remains one of the sport’s most successful businesses: a paradigmatic example of how the modern sports club can lucratively leverage its brand and its advertising space without ever needing to trouble a trophy engraver. The Premier League will not simply be bought and bidden as Qatar did with Ligue 1, trapping it in an irresistible pincer movement of unmatchable transfer spending and beIN broadcast rights. If you’re in charge of the sovereign wealth fund of an autocratic nation with a virtually limitless credit facility, you want cast-iron guarantees. Lumbered with an eye-watering price tag and surrounded by predators, United offer very few.

So what might Qatar want from United? Perhaps the same thing that it wanted from Harrods, from Heathrow airport and Sainsbury’s, all of which it either owns or owns significant portions of: immediate identification with a cherished global brand, almost a stake in British society itself. Among cultural entities not even Liverpool or Arsenal can offer the same level of name recognition, the ability to print money simply by being who you are.

And as Saudi Arabia discovered with Newcastle, buying a football club earns you an army of pliant bots desperate to do your bidding for you. Before the last World Cup, Qatar surreptitiously paid hundreds of football fans to promote the tournament for them online, rewarding them with free flights and tickets. It’s a bit like that, really, but instead of free flights and tickets it’s Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane.

The really interesting question here, by contrast, is what United fans can possibly want out of Qatar. Spending money? If any club can offer a salutary lesson in the dangers of brainlessly flinging resources at the transfer market, then surely it is the club that has spent more than £1bn in transfer fees in the past decade and won a grand total of zero league titles and reached zero Champions League semi-finals. The redevelopment of Old Trafford is long overdue, but anybody who visited the grotesque and soulless domes of Qatar’s World Cup will testify that money can buy you a lot of things, but it doesn’t buy you taste.

There are no palatable options on the table here. There is no queue of ethical multibillionaires out there scrambling to claim a piece of one of the world’s dirtiest sports. Nobody has ever accumulated the sums of money required to buy a football club of Manchester United’s size without some form of widespread exploitation: exploitation of the planet, exploitation of human rights, exploitation of some of the world’s poorest and least powerful people. Just because the Glazers were terrible, parasitic owners does not mean the next guys will be any better.

But United fans have always liked to think of their club as an exemplar. As somehow more cherished and noble than any other. How stirring it would be if, as in 2005 when they furiously protested against the Glazer takeover, they chose to evoke that sense of exceptionalism for the greater good of the sport. To resist the prostitution of their club to one of the world’s most savage governments. To demand better. The Glazers took hundreds of millions of pounds out of United. A Qatari takeover would take more still: something unique and elemental and important, something that it could never, ever replace.
The only way Ratcliffe can compete w/ Qatar is if he becomes a pawn and proxy for financial vampires Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. I'll take Qatar over those scum any day, b/c at least Qatar won't suck us dry.
 

Sviken

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He isn't if you'd bothered to read the articles. The club would be debt free and the risk would be on Ineos and himself.
This is nonsense. Why would INEOS agree to this sort of deal? It's a business, not a charity. They would expect a return on their investment. And the investment this club requires is not some chump change that they can overlook. They'll just saddle themselves with 10 billion in debt (if we assume what needs to be done is done, but even if they just buy the club and get rid of the debt, that's still 6-8 billlion in the red) and leave us scot free?
 

stevoc

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People think SJR will let his other businesses run at huge losses while the multibillion pound asset that caused the situation stays unaffected. It's almost illiteracy to think this is even possible.
I'm pretty sure I read INEOS generates £50-60+ billion per year. Why would it be running at huge losses because of United?
 

bosnian_red

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The money to pay off the debt would 100% come out the club to some extent if Jim has his way. He’ll say it’s just business.

Qatar is the way to go.
There would be 0 logic in clearing the clubs debt in this case. He puts himself at risk for 0 gain if he's going to pay it off with club money anyway.

Do you seriously believe that SJR will take on c. £600m of United's debt on personally and it should be considered as a gift to the club ?? Am I reading that correctly?

A) How is this £600m going to be financed?

B) There's the other small issue of the other c. £4.5b for the purchase of the club and how he/they are planning to finance all that.

This all reeks of another Glazer type purchase. Maybe not loading the debt directly onto the clubs books like the Glazers did, but spread across parent companies etc.

The sums involved in this would make the Glazers debt look like pocket change.
No buyer of the club is obligated to clear the club of its debt. A buyer taking the debt off the club and moving it to his own name/companies name is literally a 600m gift to the club on top of buying the club.

How will this be financed? It's between him and the banks, it's irrelevant to us. Like buying a house, you need proof of income and money on hand to be able to afford such a thing. United's yearly revenue is 1% of the yearly revenue of INEOS, so I'm not too worried about that. If he is able to purchase the club, him taking the debt off the club is literally a gift to the club to make it healthier and get rid of the risks of having that debt on the club.

The amount of people who are criticizing this or struggling to understand it is fecking staggering. 600m gift not enough for you, you need it all in cash when it's entirely irrelevant to the club where it comes from, so long as it is cleared?

Someone buying something for 6bn in cash is just stupid. You buy it, own it, and pay a favourable interest rate over time. The owner, that is. Not the club. INEOS earning 60 billion per year is irrelevant to the club, just like their debt is irrelevant to the club. If they get in trouble, then they sell the club as a debt free entity. Right now we are being sold with enormous debts.
 

BluesJr

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There would be 0 logic in clearing the clubs debt in this case. He puts himself at risk for 0 gain if he's going to pay it off with club money anyway.


No buyer of the club is obligated to clear the club of its debt. A buyer taking the debt off the club and moving it to his own name/companies name is literally a 600m gift to the club on top of buying the club.

How will this be financed? It's between him and the banks, it's irrelevant to us. Like buying a house, you need proof of income and money on hand to be able to afford such a thing. United's yearly revenue is 1% of the yearly revenue of INEOS, so I'm not too worried about that. If he is able to purchase the club, him taking the debt off the club is literally a gift to the club to make it healthier and get rid of the risks of having that debt on the club.

The amount of people who are criticizing this or struggling to understand it is fecking staggering. 600m gift not enough for you, you need it all in cash when it's entirely irrelevant to the club where it comes from, so long as it is cleared?

Someone buying something for 6bn in cash is just stupid. You buy it, own it, and pay a favourable interest rate over time. The owner, that is. Not the club. INEOS earning 60 billion per year is irrelevant to the club, just like their debt is irrelevant to the club. If they get in trouble, then they sell the club as a debt free entity. Right now we are being sold with enormous debts.
Ratcliffe has zero chance in this race so it’s all moot, and rightly so.
 

bosnian_red

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That 60 billion isn't profit. You do know that?
United also doesn't earn 600m in profit. United's revenue is 1% that of INEOS's. It's nonsensical to think that he would be using the club as a money maker.
 

Mockney

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Is sportwashing a real thing? Have there been any studies quantifying its impact?

Do people really believe that because Abu Dhabi owns City, a City fan would have a favorable impression of Abu Dhabi (despite their human rights records)? I like to think humans are smarter than that and the whole sportwashing thing is a typical liberal / elite paternalistic view of regular people as little children who don't know what they're doing.

Generally not denying that this is a phenomenon, just questioning sportwashing specifically. I've heard of greenwashing for example and that seems legit. Some projects go get a "green" certificate from some (potentially shady) NGO and use that to advertise their project to the community. People just look at the certificate, don't dive into the details and believe it must be good.
Why would a country buy a football team in another country?
 
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bosnian_red

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Ratcliffe has zero chance in this race so it’s all moot, and rightly so.
We'll see, the most noise is from Ratcliffe and I really hope it's him as he's the only choice where our morals remain intact and we don't become the plaything of a state regime with horrible human rights violations.
 

Nou_Camp99

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This is nonsense. Why would INEOS agree to this sort of deal? It's a business, not a charity. They would expect a return on their investment. And the investment this club requires is not some chump change that they can overlook. They'll just saddle themselves with 10 billion in debt (if we assume what needs to be done is done, but even if they just buy the club and get rid of the debt, that's still 6-8 billlion in the red) and leave us scot free?
10bn debt? What on earth are you talking about? The club will go for a lot less than 10bn believe me and the transfer funds will continue to be funded by the club money anyway.

They can sell the club whenever they want to as well. There would always be interested owners.
 

Greck

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I'm pretty sure I read INEOS generates £50-60+ billion per year. Why would it be running at huge losses because of United?
Because the 50-60billion doesn't mean net profit. What is their net profit figure after all the liabilities have been deducted? They don't have anywhere close 60 billion sitting in some scrooge mcduck vault. That's not what that figure means.
 

BluesJr

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We'll see, the most noise is from Ratcliffe and I really hope it's him as he's the only choice where our morals remain intact and we don't become the plaything of a state regime with horrible human rights violations.
The most noise is clearly from Qatar. Mike Keegan is the man in the know. “Morals” are a fugazi. People could give you countless examples of moral missteps Ratcliffe and Ineos have made.
 

bosnian_red

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The most noise is clearly from Qatar. Mike Keegan is the man in the know. “Morals” are a fugazi. People could give you countless examples of moral missteps Ratcliffe and Ineos have made.
Ah, please give me these countless examples that are similar to the middle east oil money owners.

Small matter of Qatar owning PSG that makes it highly unrealistic that they get it.
 

Sviken

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United also doesn't earn 600m in profit. United's revenue is 1% that of INEOS's. It's nonsensical to think that he would be using the club as a money maker.
Yes, which is exactly why our debt is increasing and our facilities and overall grounds have been stagnant for years. What point are you trying to make here because to me it doesn't appear to be a very good one.

Can you point out the part of my post where it says I think INEOS make 60 billion a year in profit?
You were quite clearly suggesting that INEOS has 60 billion to spend or something. A company can generate 5 trillion, it doesn't really matter if their expenses are equal to that number. What matters here is profit which is why Apple is the richest company in the world and not Walmart
 

BluesJr

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Ah, please give me these countless examples that are similar to the middle east oil money owners.

Small matter of Qatar owning PSG that makes it highly unrealistic that they get it.
I think you need to catch up. The PSG stuff is completely irrelevant.
 

Giggsyking

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We'll see, the most noise is from Ratcliffe and I really hope it's him as he's the only choice where our morals remain intact and we don't become the plaything of a state regime with horrible human rights violations.
Morals and Goldman Sachs dont go together. Not going to talk about Ineos.
 

croadyman

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It's been said many times already,but at this level of investment the interested parties will all have some dodgy traits.
I don't get the hate for Ratcliffe, I would prefer not to be painted with the sportswashing brush if im honest and I'm sure we'll get more details of the bids and hopefully plans going forward I really hope whoever buys us involves the fans properly unlike the Glazers who didn't speak for 17 years!!
Well if you believe Mike Keegan's article the Qatari bid intend to get the fans views on plans for stadium restructure
 

Sviken

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10bn debt? What on earth are you talking about? The club will go for a lot less than 10bn believe me and the transfer funds will continue to be funded by the club money anyway.

They can sell the club whenever they want to as well. There would always be interested owners.
We can reasonably expect the Glazers to want 5-6 billion, I don't see them selling for anything lower. Then we include the debt which has to be paid for which is around a billion at present. Then we have to include the stadium and facilities that are in desperate need for renovation. That whole thing can cost up to 2 billion, depending on the extent of it. At this point INEOS ends up with around 10 billion in debt because they don't have the cash reserves to fund this or at least a major part of it. It's a fecking bad investment through and through if we are talking about pure financials. Qataris don't care about financials nor is this money any big deal to them. To INEOS it's a HUGE deal and they would expect a return on their investment and if someone thinks INEOS are going to be the ones paying that, then I know a Nigerian prince, friend of mine, to sell you something. Or Ratcliffe takes us, doesn't pay the club debt, ignores the stadium and grounds and we just keep moving on same as under the Glazers. That's the alternative, I guess.
 

jderbyshire

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No there are no rules against one individual/group/company owning two clubs. The only rule is they can't both play in the same UEFA competition in the same year. But I doubt there's much danger of Nice being in the CL any time soon anyway though.
But surely that will become an issue, won't it?

Would Nice fans appreciate an owner who actively doesn't want them to qualify for the UCL because it causes him a legal headache?
 

Pexbo

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But surely that will become an issue, won't it?

Would Nice fans appreciate an owner who actively doesn't want them to qualify for the UCL because it causes him a legal headache?
Maybe not but horrible fans would
 

stevoc

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Because the 50-60billion doesn't mean net profit. What is their net profit figure after all the liabilities have been deducted? They don't have anywhere close 60 billion sitting in some scrooge mcduck vault. That's not what that figure means.
I am aware of that I did say generated, I'm baffled why you and the other guy taken my post where I said ''INEOS generates £50-60+ billion per year. '' as me thinking or claiming that, that is yearly profit. Unless it's just a case of parroting.

My point is if hypothetically the debt was moved to INEOS as part of the purchase. It wouldn't suddenly cause them to start making ''huge losses'' as you put it.

United is currently in £500-600m debt with an annual revenue of around £600m. Are United posting huge losses?

So why would a much larger company with an annual revenue in the tens of billions start making huge losses after taking on that same debt?
 

stevoc

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But surely that will become an issue, won't it?

Would Nice fans appreciate an owner who actively doesn't want them to qualify for the UCL because it causes him a legal headache?
It might become an issue for Nice at some point, I don't imagine it would affect United though.
 

pratyush_utd

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Unless there is legally binding guarantees that Club will not be used as collateral, club earnings will not be used as interests payments for the debt taken for buyout and some sort of investment guarantee, any bid will be a risk. Hope these conditions are also part of bidding process. Most likely it wont be but would be great if we know whether these conditions are being met by the potential owners before the deal is finalised.

Think only Qatar consortium, have publicly announced ( through media outlets not officially) that they will put money in infrastructure development and squad. Nothing about how they plan to raise money. As far as I know, nothing has been mentioned for Jim Ratcliffe plans. Without knowing that, its actually stupid to have any preference for the owner.
 

Threesus

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Everyone wanting the Qataris should read this post. Credit to aditya9031 on the red devils subreddit.

“Posted this on another thread, but I think it’s valuable highlighting here why Ratcliffe and the Qataris are not the same. Some skeletons are in the closet are worse.

As someone born and raised for 17 yrs in the Persian gulf (Abu Dhabi) let me shed some light on how the GCC countries treat immigrants (South Asians, East Asians from poorer countries like the Philippines, and Africans). The kafala system where their passports are taken away in exchange for employment still exists. My father fortunately was educated and worked in a decently high ranking finance position at a services company and witnessed a lot of this. His company (amongst many, many, many others) housed immigrant labor in camps. Those camps were in far off remote locations with up to 8 adult men sharing a 2 bedroom apartment and sleeping on bunk beds. Their pay was accessible monthly (primarily to send money to their families abroad) and they were provided with food and other amenities so that they wouldn’t have a reason to access their income. These immigrants need permission and a compelling reason to leave the camp. They can only leave camps via a daily bus taking them to the city.

These people now don’t have access to their hard earned money, need permission to go anywhere, have bog-standard accommodations, have their passports taken away and need to give a 3 month notice to fly back home (which they could only do once every 5 years because of how expensive it was).

This is the systemic abuse they suffer. The non-systemic abuse includes severe racial discrimination including being spat on, beaten, raped by the rich and powerful local Emiratis (Qataris in Qatar), and all of this is fully ignored by the legal system there. By law, immigrant works basically have no rights at all.

On top of that, they have no voting rights, their religious beliefs are suppressed, they have no rights to protest, and you’ve all heard the stories of being forced to work in inhumane heat during summer and other ungoverned workplace conditions. As mentioned previously, this continues there to this day.

Now you tell me, is an unethical billionaire like Jim Ratcliffe who’s probably fecked over 100s of people and probably made them lose their livelihoods, better or worse than a Qatari owner?

As a south Asian who’s fortunate to live in the free world but grew up seeing this shit happen to my people, feck the Qataris. I will stop following Man United and will remove this huge, huge part of my life. I’ve been a fan since I was 9 and United is a love of mine. I will discard this love of mine if the Qataris take over.”
 
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Nou_Camp99

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We can reasonably expect the Glazers to want 5-6 billion, I don't see them selling for anything lower. Then we include the debt which has to be paid for which is around a billion at present. Then we have to include the stadium and facilities that are in desperate need for renovation. That whole thing can cost up to 2 billion, depending on the extent of it. At this point INEOS ends up with around 10 billion in debt because they don't have the cash reserves to fund this or at least a major part of it. It's a fecking bad investment through and through if we are talking about pure financials. Qataris don't care about financials nor is this money any big deal to them. To INEOS it's a HUGE deal and they would expect a return on their investment and if someone thinks INEOS are going to be the ones paying that, then I know a Nigerian prince, friend of mine, to sell you something. Or Ratcliffe takes us, doesn't pay the club debt, ignores the stadium and grounds and we just keep moving on same as under the Glazers. That's the alternative, I guess.
So Qatar having deeper pockets is everything to you as well?

Don't you feel uneasy about it all given their history with migrant workers, women and gay people?

Or is it just Mbappe thoughts clouding your judgement?

You have to remember that post Fergie we have spent enough money to win the PL and CL. We've spent as much as City have. We didn't need Qataris to do it either. We just suffered because the parasites left Ed Woodward in charge to ruin everything.

Ratcliffe is much richer than the Glazers and has a huge huge business backing him too. And he's a Utd fan. It's not a case of Oil / gas money or failure.
 

bosnian_red

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Yes, which is exactly why our debt is increasing and our facilities and overall grounds have been stagnant for years. What point are you trying to make here because to me it doesn't appear to be a very good one.


You were quite clearly suggesting that INEOS has 60 billion to spend or something. A company can generate 5 trillion, it doesn't really matter if their expenses are equal to that number. What matters here is profit which is why Apple is the richest company in the world and not Walmart
I have no idea what point you are trying to make either? Ratcliffe isn't trying to buy the club to pinch a bit of the profits from the club to his own company or pay off his own debts. Makes no sense. He's buying it to own as an asset.

Our debt is increasing as we are poorly run, spend far too much money on transfers and wages and don't earn enough to cover that. Mainly down to existing debt payments really. How we have been run previously is irrelevant to this discussion, as the goal will be to have an owner who runs us well (which nobody has the slightest clue with until it is in action). All we can hope for is an owner who will clear the debt (check for SJR if this is to be believed), and not be a play thing for an oil state (another win for SJR). We need a lot of renovations, yes, and while it would be grand to have an owner gift us a full renovation of Old Trafford too, I highly doubt that happens. And I'm ok with that. Generally speaking, football clubs should be self sustaining. They should spend within their means, take profits and reinvest into their infrastructure. Owners shouldn't be pumping money into clubs past cleaning up the mess left behind by previous owners.
 

Greck

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I am aware of that I did say generated, I'm baffled why have you and the other guy taken my post where I said ''INEOS generates £50-60+ billion per year. '' as me thinking or claiming that, that is yearly profit.

My point is if hypothetically the debt was moved to INEOS as part of the purchase. It wouldn't suddenly cause them to start making ''huge losses'' as you put it.

United is currently in £500-600m debt with an annual revenue of around £600m. Are United posting huge losses?

So why would a much larger company with an annual revenue in the tens of billions start making huge losses after taking on that same debt?
What? Because United aren't the ones looking to buy a 6-10 billion pound entity!!!! We too would run into losses and liquidity problems for the foreseeable future if we did.
 

Chief123

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Interesting to see Utd stock price up 20% from 48 hours ago. It’s up 100% since December.
 

bosnian_red

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We can reasonably expect the Glazers to want 5-6 billion, I don't see them selling for anything lower. Then we include the debt which has to be paid for which is around a billion at present. Then we have to include the stadium and facilities that are in desperate need for renovation. That whole thing can cost up to 2 billion, depending on the extent of it. At this point INEOS ends up with around 10 billion in debt because they don't have the cash reserves to fund this or at least a major part of it. It's a fecking bad investment through and through if we are talking about pure financials. Qataris don't care about financials nor is this money any big deal to them. To INEOS it's a HUGE deal and they would expect a return on their investment and if someone thinks INEOS are going to be the ones paying that, then I know a Nigerian prince, friend of mine, to sell you something. Or Ratcliffe takes us, doesn't pay the club debt, ignores the stadium and grounds and we just keep moving on same as under the Glazers. That's the alternative, I guess.
It's an investment. Nobody buys a football Club as a short term investment. We were valued at 500m 20 years ago, now it's 5 billion if not more. So yes, if they buy the club and take on the debt, it's because they expect the club to be worth far more than what they buy it at in time. You don't invest in something to get yearly payments. You invest in it to have your money sitting in something that gains in value over time. 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now, however long they want to own us, and at that point when they sell the club they will make far more than what they put into the club. Which is the point of an investment.
 

croadyman

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I feel the same way, I would rather it be somebody like Ratcliffe, but United under his ownership would not be able to compete financially with City and Newcastle . He probably can come up with the asking price, but won't be able to invest as much money again to fix the damage to the infrastructure that almost 2 decades of neglect by the Glazers have caused. United need a new stadium, new training facilities, the youth set up needs improving and the land around the stadium needs to be developed like it has around City's ground.

To get United back to the top of the tree where it was pre Glazers , it will take a lot more money than Ratcliffe has. The Qataris or the Saudis have the money to burn and can drop 10 or 12 billion without even missing it.
Your last paragraph is why they are my preference
 

Chief123

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You really think there are Qatari / Saudi / etc. billionaires without ties to the murderous regime? You're dreaming if you think so.
Does every billionaire in the U.K. have ties to the U.K. government?
 

bosnian_red

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I think you need to catch up. The PSG stuff is completely irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant. They're interested but they will have to prove it is not related.

And the point is that I hope we don't get middle east owners anyway. We dont need them. Ideally an owner comes in, clears the debt from the club, invests to renovate the stadium due to the condition it's left in and has the team run in a self sustainable way otherwise.
 
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