Club Sale | It’s done!

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RedSky

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If Ratcliffe did continue the same way as the Glazers the fans would utterly riot. Short term there has to be differences otherwise the fan/media backlash would be huge. They won't want that.

The question is what happens medium/long term. As long as they sort the debt out then I'll be satisfied.
 

glasgow 21

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We won't need to worry about Qatar for much longer and all affected souls can relax back and enjoy their football. Meanwhile we can all celebrate how we are not a plastic club. In fact we should have a day put aside for a party outside Old Trafford chanting " We're not plastic.We're United, We are not debt free, Cause we have Goldman Sachs giving loans daaiily". Hopefully ETH punches above his weight and we can challenge for Cl places and Pep F's off back to Barcelona eventually after winning it this year. Hopefully we are all glasses half full meantime.
 

AneRu

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Indeed.

In terms of the spending on players required, it's important for people to remember that we've spent as much as we have because we've been failing, leading us to throw good money after bad and going through repeated "rebuild" phases. Once you get to the point where you actually have a functioning high-level team and you're just looking to maintain it season by season, the need to spend greatly drops. For example City's net spend over the last five years (officially, anyway) has been approx -€21m, -€96, -€109m, -€45m, and +€11.6m.
True, if we push the boat out for Osimhen, Costa and Caicedo for example we can still sell off Maguire, McTominay and Henderson who can fund the purchase of another CB and RB. If that team can't make top 3 and the CL 1/4s then the manager would rightly deserve the sack.
 

NWRed

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We didn't struggle with debt but we struggled with their incompetence. The money wasted on dogshit players like Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and others who didn't deliver any sporting success could have renovated Old Trafford or if it had been spent by someone who knew what they were doing would have funded a PL or CL win. Let's not rewrite history, if Woodward had moved heaven and earth to land Klopp we'd talking differently right now.

Glazers have never really invested a penny of their own money into the growth of the club. If they had they would be selling for much right now, imagine if they had put in just a portion of the money they got when they sold off shares on the NYSE we would be so far ahead of the competition. Ten years ago 500m would have been enough to mordenize facilities, for example. If INEOS follow the same script they would have the same issues.
All 3 of which were celebrated on here as coups of gigantic proportions heralding a new era of dominance.
 

glasgow 21

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If Ratcliffe did continue the same way as the Glazers the fans would utterly riot. Short term there has to be differences otherwise the fan/media backlash would be huge. They won't want that.

The question is what happens medium/long term. As long as they sort the debt out then I'll be satisfied.
Neither Ratcliffe or Glaziers give a flying feck what we all think. Deluded if any of us think otherwise. It's their Ball and we ain't playing with it. Our decision is to support or not support the team as it would have been with Qatar. Gary Neville and the likes spouting on sky sports or fans demo's is water of a ducks back to these people.
 

DOTA

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Lukaku really wasn’t celebrated anywhere near the level of the other two.
IIRC an awful lot of people were pissed off we didn't get Morata.
 

arthurka

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What worries me is the Qatar PR machine has done very little to ensure the fans that they are winning this. Might mean nothing but the SJR spinning machine is in full pelt now.
 

stw2022

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What worries me is the Qatar PR machine has done very little to ensure is that they are winning this. Might mean nothing but the SJR spinning machine is in full pelt now.

If you're ahead why bother with PR?
 

stw2022

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Don't know just wondering why? It might be because they are absolutely confident about their bid.
There's been far too many Ratcliffe-originated stories in the media from the very beginning for my liking. It's never suggested there was a man confident in his place in the race.
 

NWRed

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Posters on here have short memories before the Sheik said he was interested in buying the club, people were hailing Jim Ratcliffe as our saviour.I would rather have him making decisions than the glaziers anytime.
No, the problem is people are paying close attention to the details of the bids. Even after Qatar interst became known most people were still pro Radcliffe, the worm turned when it became known he wouldn't clearing the Glazers debt, was taking on more debt to buy the club, wouldn't be buying 100% and so has no plans to invest his own money in it (if he is to renovate Old Trafford and Carrington it means more debt on the club), and now possibly not even getting rid of the Glazers.
 

VP89

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No, the problem is people are paying close attention to the details of the bids. Even after Qatar interst became known most people were still pro Radcliffe, the worm turned when it became known he wouldn't clearing the Glazers debt, was taking on more debt to buy the club, wouldn't be buying 100% and so has no plans to invest his own money in it (if he is to renovate Old Trafford and Carrington it means more debt on the club), and now possibly not even getting rid of the Glazers.
Can you stop spouting lies.

He never said he'd clear the debt in the first place and he's not using more debt to buy the club.
 

DOTA

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Why would you feck them if they had gonorrhoea?
My understanding was he has gonorrhoea and is gonna feck the Glazers in the hope of passing it on to them.
 

MiamiSpartan

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Don't know just wondering why? It might be because they are absolutely confident about their bid.
Have they not been confident of theor bids until now? Their PR barrage has been constant for 2+ months, and it has gone quiet.

Some are in serious denial about the reports, and that may prove to be well-founded, but there's definitely a shift in the reporting of the last few days compared to the previous couple of months.
 

stw2022

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My understanding was he has gonorrhoea and is gonna feck the Glazers in the hope of passing it on to them.

They already look like child-eating characters from a Brothers Grimm novel, let's not be out of order
 

KnowNowt

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I be actually like Golbridge but he didn’t even know like a lot of people what the bid was for and how it was structured
I too like him and think he can be informative and entertaining. We don’t need to agree with everything he says. The fact that he doesn’t understand player amortisation for example does not make him a fool. As for the bids and bid structures I doubt anyone outside of the main protagonists involved actually know – I’ve laid this out in my first post which I managed to bury. He has over 1.6m other ‘fools’ or worse they are called here subscribed to his channel, outside of yours truly.
 

7even

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I agree.

I think there's another twist to come in the coming days because I've always felt the Qatari group was waiting for Ratcliffe to completely show his hand, which he seems to have done now. And it's not a surprise that Ratcliffe is looking to get his foot through the door even if it means keeping the Glazers around on a minority stake.

Because when the news first broke about Ratcliffe wanting to buy the club last year via The Times and Matt Dickinson in particular, it was reported about Ratcliffe even being open to a minority stake, which would eventually lead to a full-takeover in the future.

On the other hand the Qatari offer has been described via reports as one where the Qatari group won't be reckless and they're said to be vary of the the Glazers/Raine making them bid against themselves. So I feel now that Ratcliffe has possibly shown his hand in the final round of bidding, that Qatar will counter his offer. Which makes sense at this stage rather than reports about them blowing the competition out of the water, which isn't at all sensible.
This!


Secondly.

None of the Glazer siblings will stay as a minority owner. Selling ALL their shares now is by far the best option from every possible perspective. It simply doesn’t make any financial sense for them to continue without the voting power they had before.

I can’t see a scenario where SJ and the people from Qatar just accept being financially outbid because of short of funds. State owned bid or not I think pride and fear of losing face will be a big part of the final outcome of this bidding war. Let’s wait and see.
 

Roboc7

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Am I missing something about Ratcliffe's bid?

It doesn't strike me that he's keeping Joel and Avram around so they can hold hands and make all the decisions collectively. It sounds like they'd have very little influence over decision-making going forward, and would purely be there because they think they can get more for their shares in the future. Essentially, it seems like a ploy on his part to try and win out against a stronger financial force in Qatar.

Ideally, I'd rather have all the Glazers gone now, but I'd also ideally not have us become a soul-dead sportswashing project.
You’re not missing anything, INEOS bid has always been about majority ownership, Qatari the whole 100%. If Joel and Avram stay then they’ll have no say in anything.

I totally agree the absolute disdain for the Ineos group is just crazy, they don’t have the money to buy the club, they can’t afford to buy players or invest in stadium rebuild, it’s a complete hog wash. If the company gave outbid SJ and Qatar they have the funds as this has been checked in the last two weeks. For the record Ineos have amounted nearly €10bn Of profits in last 8 or 9 years. Look below at link https://www.statista.com/statistics/862289/ineos-group-annual-gross-profit-uk/#:~:text=In 2021, the gross profits,at nearly 1.3 billion euros.

I accept that some of this is being used to reinvest in their core business but the annual Turnover is $60 billion and making a profit. It’s been know for years that the company has been stockpiling cash, building up reserves to invest.

Now just because you have a pot of gold doesn’t mean you always use it, but you can use it as collateral where you can use a banks money at more favourable rates because your business rating is blue chip like Ineos but the notion that they can not afford to buy man United, absorb the debt or pay for players is insane.

The club under SJR will be miles better off financially, the two goblins unfortunately might stay and there may be real questions on how much of a fan SJR is and how much he wants to win, but with new FFP and sustainability rules, he has more than enough money to make united a force again, they may not be as rich as they would have been under Qatar but is that really what people wanted with all the human rights and homophobia issues that come with that now confirmed state bid .
Yeah I don’t think there should be any concern regarding the finances with INEOS. Debt is just part of business and I have no doubt they’ll be pumping money into infrastructure. Debt is just part of business.

The biggest issue with the Glazers in recent years hasn’t been debt, it’s been their incompetence, indifference, neglect, zero investment and lack of any plan on how to run a football club. My concern with INEOS isn’t debt or investment but whether they’ll be any good at running the club.
 

Woziak

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INEOS makes around 2.5b per year so servicing and paying off an 8b debt isn't that difficult if they wished to. Furthermore United can afford to service its own debt and spend 150m on transfers every season especially if they have the right coaching and recruitment set up that can guarantee CL football every year.

If Ineos want capital appreciation then they have to invest in infrastructure and playing staff, there is no way around it. The fact of the matter is that United wouldn't need to spend +250m every season, maybe every other 3rd or fourth season. Realistically speaking, if we spend 250m on Osimhen, Caicedo and Costa what would we need in 24 that would be so expensive beyond a few bench players?

Interest on the 3b acquisition debt INEOS would have to take will be in the 150m range, which will also lower their tax burden. After this summer United would never need additional support for transfer spending and the figure they would need is probably less than 150m.

They can afford the takeover, it's in their interests to get United competing and reestablished at the top table of the English and European game. City recently sold 10% of their stake for $500m, the Glazers are looking for a billion plus for a minority stake and so are PSG. There is money to be made but it's only there if you invest. The Glazers failed because of misdirected investments under an incompetent CEO, not because of debt.
This is a solid post, the current actual debt of Man united can be broken down into three categories;

1. Historical debt used as a leveraged buy out which is now approx £536m$(650m)
I use approx because it fluctuates with the exchange rate, but this has increased from the original amount nearly 19 years ago due to gross negligence and greed from the Glazers taking out annual dividends which could have been used to pay off the debt. With low interest rates this debt was serviceable but not now.

2. Transfer Amortised Payments debt slightly different as this is not equated in FFP but may soon be added I’m sure to the new Financial Sustainability rules where only 70% of your turnover can be spent on wages, agent fees and new net transfers sales will be the new rules by 2025/26 season. This debt is said to be £227m, but let’s be clear nearly all clubs have this type of debt as most transfers are amortised. This does not need to be cleared as a new owner will just continue to service the payments to other clubs.

3. Credit Card Facility debt - This is a credit line agreed with the bank and currently the club has £300m limit but spent £207m of that limit mostly on transfers last year.
Part of their sales pitch to prospective buyers is that Debt would be cleared by the end of June through gate receipts, PL payments and merchandising sales, clearing a smooth transition path for a new owner to use this facility for summer transfers and whilst giving them time to sign the correct change of ownership details and pass all the necessary ownership fit and proper tests from Uefa and the PL.

Sheikh Jasim and the now confirmed full Qatar state bid would simply have paid the £535m debt instantly closed down the existing banking facilities and put their own in place, this still would have probably taken 2-3 months and gave them very little time now to operate in the transfer window, almost similar to when Abu Dhabi bought City hat first window, they may have used existing banking but no guarantee as they have been singular in their ideas, buy 69% take full control, pay off the debt, spend £400m on marquee players, then buy the existing 31% of the club, build super stadium and training ground, highly unlikely they would use existing banking because it involves interest payments and that concept is aboded in their culture.

The more favourable deal to Joel and Avram is to sell maybe 3% each of their b shares with the other 4 siblings selling all 45% of their shares to SJR through Ineos.

The company would be restructured with no more B shares and they would get 20% or 32.6m of the new company which is listed on the NYSE with SJR/Ineos owning 83 million of the 163 million shares and controlling rights. The agreed premium would still be available year 1 for both Glazers but diminishes slightly in year 2 so SJR could effectively buy an additional 20% of the company in 2024 or 2025 or they could keep their shares and hope through success on the field the shares go up to $30/35 per share through ineos investment and management.

Highly unlikely it’s a smart play from SJR, he’s outmanoeuvred SJ and the Qatar hate to lose, expect them to bid on another PL club soon however now that the state has been confirmed the PL might not allow it but probably can’t stop it.

SJR could move much quicker in the transfer window because if this model because he will unfortunately be working in the short term with Malcolm and Joel and probably Arnold and Murtourgh, he might say I need a huge transfer window and become hands on, listening to him earlier in his interviews he seems to me like he could be a throwback to Blackburns Jack Walker and united is his love so it’s win at all costs, we’ll see but whoever wins SJ or more likely now SJR will spend big this summer.
 

arthurka

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There's been far too many Ratcliffe-originated stories in the media from the very beginning for my liking. It's never suggested there was a man confident in his place in the race.
No he looks like a chancer who needs many things to fall into place. That latest Glazer stunt being the latest. Don't like him one bit.

Have they not been confident of theor bids until now? Their PR barrage has been constant for 2+ months, and it has gone quiet.



Some are in serious denial about the reports, and that may prove to be well-founded, but there's definitely a shift in the reporting of the last few days compared to the previous couple of months.
See I don't agree with that, they have said very little else than they want the club and are confident about it.

But who knows, SJR just looks a terrible option at the moment and if he has teamed up with the Glazer duo he will get torn apart by the fans.
 

RedSky

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Neither Ratcliffe or Glaziers give a flying feck what we all think. Deluded if any of us think otherwise. It's their Ball and we ain't playing with it. Our decision is to support or not support the team as it would have been with Qatar. Gary Neville and the likes spouting on sky sports or fans demo's is water of a ducks back to these people.
It's got nothing to do with what we think, it's about PR and ensuring that United has good PR rather than bad PR. If we don't spend in the Summer the atmosphere will be toxic, fan protesting and the media will be loving the drama. No new owners would want that.

I know there's plenty of negativity booming around this place but perhaps we should just wait for actual information before everyone loses their shit. Tricky suggestion I'm aware.
 

NK86

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When the parent company turn over 60 billion a year and profits have been around €2.1 billion euros anything we can contribute would be like firing a BB gun at a tank and expecting it to cause any damage
That's fair, but then the question you need to answer is will any business (successful and profitable) take on additional debt to acquire an organization which is currently running losses and needs huge infra investments. If it is something of a passion project for JR, then it does make sense but I doubt he became a billionaire by spending billions on items he has no need for.
 

NK86

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We don’t know that, nothing has been confirmed either way.
I thought it was common knowledge that he would be taking on additional debt to fund this purchase. I am not sure if they have 3b+ cash lying around or liquidating any asset for this. Was it not called out in his PR that any additional debt would not be on United's books? Why say that unless there is a debt component to this purchase.
 

NK86

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We didn't struggle with debt but we struggled with their incompetence. The money wasted on dogshit players like Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and others who didn't deliver any sporting success could have renovated Old Trafford or if it had been spent by someone who knew what they were doing would have funded a PL or CL win. Let's not rewrite history, if Woodward had moved heaven and earth to land Klopp we'd talking differently right now.

Glazers have never really invested a penny of their own money into the growth of the club. If they had they would be selling for much right now, imagine if they had put in just a portion of the money they got when they sold off shares on the NYSE we would be so far ahead of the competition. Ten years ago 500m would have been enough to mordenize facilities, for example. If INEOS follow the same script they would have the same issues.
You talk as if other clubs don't have failed transfer or poor managers that need sacking? We have spent 1b+ on interest payments and returns on that debt. You really think that has not hampered us? Am I reading it right that debt is not an issue or it never was?
 

OleGunnar20

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1) ineos may not have £3-6b in liquid cash, but they certainly have the clout to pay the repayments out of their own pocket. if they don't and put that debt on the club, expecting the club to generate it, it's obv a stupid move. what they can do, is make the repayments comfortably themselves whilst increasing the club's loan account (most likely) but it won't matter really, the club won't be under threat in that case.

2) the key question is why they're willing to risk so much just to own 50% of united, the samr reason why the glazers didnt want to let go in the first place, because they understand the impact monetised future technology eg VR/holographic technology, will have on the club.
the glazers realise they cant keep spending £200m a season to keep up with City and now Newcastle too, along with all the economic uncertainty going around..but they would have preferred to have kept united or kept some shares in united to get that share of the pie 10-15 yrs from now.

ask yourself, if 10 years from now you can switch on a device, preferrbly not VR goggles...and experience OT as if you're physically seated there, or as if you're in the dugout or tunnel..but you had to pay £1k a year (or the equivalent in terms of inflation), would you do it?
if United were in a big game...and 40m people all around the world paid £10 each for that experience...
the only downside is the disgusting idea that a player might cost £1b one day..and it would be another dog poo player playing like pogba. there needs to be a cap on the transfer market eg clubs should be mandated to promote x amount of youth players every game for example. that would be nice.
Once I noticed your username I couldn't not hear that whole post in Alan Johnsons voice.

Stick that up your dojo.
 

NK86

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I hope all the Ratcliffe bid supporters start being honest and/or wake up about what's going to happen with the debt/debt repayments. Even more so if there's investments towards infrastructure.
Don't worry, now all the debt that wr have and had is good debt. Debt is always good irrespective of how it hampers us. I know the pro-Qatar group could be turning a blind eye towards a few things, but the ones who want JR in are now somehow trying to make us believe that the debt was never an issue.

A behemoth like United who never had any debt and was successful all those years suddenly getting burdened with debt was never an issue. :lol:
 

Dec9003

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Genuine question because I’m completely clueless on this stuff. How does the debt we have affect us? We should obviously have never had it in the first place, the way the Glazers took over shouldn’t be allowed.
I just don’t know how it actually affects us, does it hamper our ability to sign players with FFP?
 

NK86

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Genuine question because I’m completely clueless on this stuff. How does the debt we have affect us? We should obviously have never had it in the first place, the way the Glazers took over shouldn’t be allowed.
I just don’t know how it actually affects us, does it hamper our ability to sign players with FFP?
According to some on here now, the debt was never an issue. It was only incompetence. So if we were in the CL every season or winning the odd PL/CL, the debt would have been a good thing. :p
 

Redfan94

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Or maybe they’re trying to convince the ISU that this is an individual buying and not the state of Qatar with unlimited funds?
No doubt they’re trying to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes, it falls flat on it’s face though when you look into how the minority stake holder of a bank comes up with $5+ Billion to fund such a purchase.
 

Nou_Camp99

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The debt definitely isn't a good thing and it's creeping back up. Having a little bit of debt isn't a bad thing at all really but our debt is definitely more than a little.

If Sir Jim wins this auction he's going to need to pay some of it off eventually before it really starts to hurt us.

For all we know though he could well be planning on do this. People who badly want Qatar have said he will never pay it off without a shred of evidence.

We shall see what happens. Still don't think Qatar are out of the running either.
 

Adnan

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Whether it's Jim or Jassim, they'll run the club with a Sporting director model and that in itself has been the Glazer problem on the football side of the club for a long time where they carried on with a CEO/manager model at a time where other clubs were modernised to take advantage of the DoF/head coach approach.

Running the football side of the club isn't difficult, it's just made to look difficult by people on the board not knowing their lane.
 

NK86

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The debt definitely isn't a good thing and it's creeping back up. Having a little bit of debt isn't a bad thing at all really but our debt is definitely more than a little.

If Sir Jim wins this auction he's going to need to pay some of it off eventually before it really starts to hurt us.

For all we know though he could well be planning on do this. People who badly want Qatar have said he will never pay it off without a shred of evidence.

We shall see what happens. Still don't think Qatar are out of the running either.
That's all there is to it. I know there are NDAs but leaks happen all the time. If he through some PR got this out that the existing debt will be taken care of while any new debt is not any of United's concern, then this bid even with the Glazers staying without decision making power is a lot more palatable. In the end, everyone of us want what is best for the club irrespective of who the owner is.
 

Dec9003

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According to some on here now, the debt was never an issue. It was only incompetence. So if we were in the CL every season or winning the odd PL/CL, the debt would have been a good thing. :p
The only articles I could find reference the Glazers saying it doesn’t really matter, but obviously I don’t actually believe them. Apparently we pay a relatively small amount in dividends every year. I don’t know if we wanted to say upgrade Old Trafford if having debt would make that more challenging.
 
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