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Cole Palmer | Chelsea Player

giorno

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29 is more than the majority of professionals reach in their best ever seasons and he's doing it in his debut season for Chelsea at 21 and there are still 7 games for Chelsea to go.

I just don't think it's a purple patch, he's just a very good player who is at the right club to build around him.
I mean he's having a purple patch right now, but overall yeah, he's not putting up crazy figures compared to the underlying metrics, at least in the league. The numbers are just hugely inflated by a ridiculous number of penalties
 

Rojofiam

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29 is more than the majority of professionals reach in their best ever seasons and he's doing it in his debut season for Chelsea at 21 and there are still 7 games for Chelsea to go.

I just don't think it's a purple patch, he's just a very good player who is at the right club to build around him.
You don't understand what he's saying
 

giorno

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Palmer scoring 9 from 9 is something to be praised, not used to diminish him.
Nobody's diminishing him. The point is taking 9 penalties in one season is a freak occurrence. Not something that's likely to happen ever again, nevermind every season

Yes, he's still putting up really impressive figures even without penalties
 

SilentWitness

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You don't understand what he's saying
xG isn't a be all and end all metric. It's a metric which you use to try to judge what may happen, but it can and is to be used in conjunction with an eye test. It's all about predictions.

Using both metrics (eye test and xG) I don't see it as a purple patch for him, I see him as a player that is capable of putting in 20+ goal contribution seasons regularly and it matters little if penalties are part of that. They're part of the game and require a high mental skill set as well as technical.
 

Solius

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His impact is very similar to Bruno's for us. Carrying his poor team, playing well and scoring from open play but also a fair few pens. Though you can guarantee there will be Chelsea fans who used the whole Penandes thing saying he's stat padding when he first arrived and are completely fine with Palmer doing it.
 

SirBillNic

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You're kind of right, but you could easily argue that's why you have Palmer on the bench.

I can't think of two better players to bring on in the 100th minute of a world cup than Toney and Palmer in preparation for a shootout.
At the very least on the bench I would say, but I also just think he has the right mindset and demeanor for big games. Just my impression but I don't think the pressure gets to him like it would to some other players. And tbh I just think England might play better with Palmer than Saka or Bowen.
 

SirBillNic

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Really good player but as it always is the case, he's getting heavily overrated on the back of a great run of form.

He has 25 goals from 14.94 xG and 13 assists from 8.97 xA, so this is nothing but a purple patch from him. That 14.94 xG includes penalties as well so it's about 8 expected goals without them.

Like I said, though, he's a really good player but the discourse on social media is already how he should start for England at the Euros and how he's better than Saka. Neither of those things are true but football fans will always be fickle I guess. When Chelsea paid 47m for him everyone was laughing at them. :lol:

Just like how Hojlund was better than Haaland when he was scoring every game, and now he's back to being a championship level player because he's not scored in 4 games.
But that's the problem with "xG" and these kind of metrics. You can spin them multiple ways. Higher xG than goals could mean a player who gets himself lots of scoring chances and just been unlucky with saves or blocks, or it could mean a player with shit finishing. The opposite could be someone in a purple patch, like you said, or it could be someone who is clinical at putting away chances.

I prefer to go with what I see with my own two eyes. I remember when I saw him playing for City I thought he looked like he fit right in with the rest of City's players (just like Rico Lewis now), so I wasn't laughing at all when Chelsea bought him. And then he's been even better as the main man for Chelsea. I've watched a lot of Chelsea's and Arsenal's games this season, and based on the good ol fashioned eye test I've liked what I've seen from Palmer more. Saka I actually think is slightly overrated although admittedly he's been at a high level for longer than Palmer has.
 

duffer

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His impact is very similar to Bruno's for us. Carrying his poor team, playing well and scoring from open play but also a fair few pens. Though you can guarantee there will be Chelsea fans who used the whole Penandes thing saying he's stat padding when he first arrived and are completely fine with Palmer doing it.
You think there will be biased and inconsistent football fans? That's a wild thought. I don't believe it.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I think you can give a penalty away for team harmony if you're leading by a large margin. Messi gave penalties away all the time and still scored over a hundred of them (and his teams did OK for the most part). Mind you, Palmer so far looks like a better penalty taker than Messi to be quite honest......
You can do and if you do it's a lovely act. If he decides to keep taking them as he has been all season then Jackson should shut up and just smile when his team scores.
 

Rojofiam

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xG isn't a be all and end all metric. It's a metric which you use to try to judge what may happen, but it can also be used in conjunction with an eye test. It's all about predictions.

Using both metrics (eye test and xG) I don't see it as a purple patch for him, I see him as a player that is capable of putting in 20+ goal contribution seasons regularly and it matters little if penalties are part of that. They're part of the game and require a high mental skill set as well as technical.
Like we've both said, he's a very good player, I wasn't debating that. I also think he can be a 20 goal involvement player in all competitions, even without pens, if he's one of the attacking focal points of his team. But right now, he will finish the season with more than 40 G/A and it's heavily skewed by his last 6 matches, which is definitely a purple patch.

Eventually, his penalty conversion rate will be closer to 80% than 100% as well.

What his real level is is very likely what his stats suggest: Around 24 G/A with pens, and around 17 without them. Still very good, but don't be surprised when he's not putting up this season's numbers year after year. That was my whole point. The purple patch comment was meant for the last 6 games.
 

giorno

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But right now, he will finish the season with more than 40 G/A and it's heavily skewed by his last 6 matches, which is definitely a purple patch.
While this is true(10G in his first 23 games, 10 in the last 5 - 5/23, 6/5 excluding penalties. 4.9 NPxG in 23 - 2.9/5) the bigger reason is the sheer number of penalties, which varies randomly from season to season. In the PL he has 20 G+A excluding penalties from 16 NPxG+xAG - not a particularly notable overperformance and something that's likely to keep happening
 

Mb194dc

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He wouldn't have been signed if Nkunku was fit and firing I think, the reason we got him late was we absolutely needed another attacker due to that long injury. He wanted first team football and we could also only offer it due to that, Pep told him he could be bench or be sold and he choose the latter.

What we've learned, is that all the stats and numbers can't tell you the real potential of a footballer... Or he would have been the first signing made. A lot of the more expensive players who ticked all the numbers boxes haven't developed or have flopped horribly. It's why no club tried a similar strategy to Clearlake before. Also that players need first team football at a decent level to really show what they can do, he wasn't this good at the start of the season.

Can't think of a player I'd want more on Penalty duty currently, he should surely make the England squad and be first kicker if we get to a shootout. Maybe he can even inspire hope for City on Saturday, though we shouldn't be too carried away...., was pretty much resigned to a heavy beating before last night.
 

giorno

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Can't think of a player I'd want more on Penalty duty currently, he should surely make the England squad
If it stays 23 men i don't think he'll make it and i'm not sure he should either. 26 yeah, he's in
 

Scarecrow

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Nobody's diminishing him. The point is taking 9 penalties in one season is a freak occurrence. Not something that's likely to happen ever again, nevermind every season

Yes, he's still putting up really impressive figures even without penalties
That’s generally the average of penalties given per team, isn’t it? 0.25 - 0.3 per game.
 

Jeffthered

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He's superb, in so much form right now. It's wonderful to watch. His first goal was brilliant and he is absolutely miles ahead of the players around him. Only Gareth Southgate would see his talent and get nervous.

Next season will be an interesting one for him.

Btw, aren't Chelsea an embarrassment? (And as for Everton... blimey...)
 

Red Star One

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Nobody's diminishing him. The point is taking 9 penalties in one season is a freak occurrence. Not something that's likely to happen ever again, nevermind every season

Yes, he's still putting up really impressive figures even without penalties
9 penalties for Palmer (so far) is a lot, but it's not such a freak occurrence as you might think, and he's unusual in that he scored each of the 9 kicks he's taken. Andrew Johnson scored 11 pens in the 04/05 season, Milivojevic, Shearer and Lampard all had seasons with 10 pens scored - can't find the stats for their success rate, but I doubt any of them was at 100% conversion. Bruno in 20/21 and Gerrard in 13/14 also got 9 penalty goals each in a season.

I found a cool table about the number of penalties taken in each Premier League season:
1998-9953
1999-200066
2000-0157
2001-0252
2002-0364
2003-0479
2004-0574
2005-0673
2006-07108
2007-0882
2008-0983
2009-10111
2010-11101
2011-1299
2012-1383
2013-1487
2014-1583
2015-1691
2016-17106
2017-1880
2018-19103
2019-2092
2020-21124
2021-22103
2022-2398

As you can see, it's not a linear trend but the last decade has seen more penalties given than the previous one, and since the introduction of VAR (in Premier League since 19/20) it's been on a steady 90+ a season, with the freaky 20-21 season seeing 124 penalty kicks. So I don't think it's unlikely to happen again that a player takes 9 or more penalties in a season - in fact I full expect this to happen next year. Again, what's mostly unusual about Palmer is the fact he converted 9 out of 9 so far.

Btw, the team to receive the most penalties in a single Premier League season is actually us, when we were awarded 14 pens in the 2019-2020 season.
 

Dave Smith

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9 penalties for Palmer (so far) is a lot, but it's not such a freak occurrence as you might think, and he's unusual in that he scored each of the 9 kicks he's taken. Andrew Johnson scored 11 pens in the 04/05 season, Milivojevic, Shearer and Lampard all had seasons with 10 pens scored - can't find the stats for their success rate, but I doubt any of them was at 100% conversion. Bruno in 20/21 and Gerrard in 13/14 also got 9 penalty goals each in a season.

I found a cool table about the number of penalties taken in each Premier League season:
1998-9953
1999-200066
2000-0157
2001-0252
2002-0364
2003-0479
2004-0574
2005-0673
2006-07108
2007-0882
2008-0983
2009-10111
2010-11101
2011-1299
2012-1383
2013-1487
2014-1583
2015-1691
2016-17106
2017-1880
2018-19103
2019-2092
2020-21124
2021-22103
2022-2398

As you can see, it's not a linear trend but the last decade has seen more penalties given than the previous one, and since the introduction of VAR (in Premier League since 19/20) it's been on a steady 90+ a season, with the freaky 20-21 season seeing 124 penalty kicks. So I don't think it's unlikely to happen again that a player takes 9 or more penalties in a season - in fact I full expect this to happen next year. Again, what's mostly unusual about Palmer is the fact he converted 9 out of 9 so far.

Btw, the team to receive the most penalties in a single Premier League season is actually us, when we were awarded 14 pens in the 2019-2020 season.
Yeah, I do not think the 9 pens is that odd, it is his conversion rate that is odd. However, what is telling with him is that he seems to stay so collected when scoring them. I have seen him take ones against City, Utd and Everton last night. Each time there has been some serious drama around it - in injury time to draw the game level after a long VAR check and/or having to argue with his team mates etc. He then steps up and takes it like he is on the training pitch.

I understand what some people are saying about stat padding but if he keeps on like that he would be automatic penalty taker for any team in the world and it is likely he would be playing for a team getting 9 pens or more a season regardless.
 

rimaldo

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he’s got the kind of face and hair where i fully expect him to be balding severely by his early thirties. crazy how many are clamouring to sign him with that on the cards.
 

OverratedOpinion

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You realize Pep's been starting Doku, Alvarez, Grealish, Nunes(!!), sometimes Silva and even Bobb in the attacking 3, right? He scored in the community shield and in the super cup final, I'm pretty sure he'd have fair chance of finding his way to the first 14-15 players who starts regularly for Pep this season.

I can't believe City actually spent 72M on Nunes and 60M on Doku and sold Palmer for 47M in the same window. :lol:
Doku and Nunes is just not good enough to ever be first choices there.
You're talking about a bunch of players who play different positions to Palmer. The fact you mentioned Oscar Bobb who has started 4 premier league matches this season probably tells me that you dont understand the phrase "starting lineup".
 

Kwabs

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You can do and if you do it's a lovely act. If he decides to keep taking them as he has been all season then Jackson should shut up and just smile when his team scores.
I mean, I understand that sentiment but the more holistic view is that if Jackson is struggling for goals and giving him a non-crucial pen helps his confidence then why not? 2 goals feels a lot better than one. After all it is not 'Cole Palmer FC', it is 'Chelsea FC' and the goal is not for Cole Palmer to score as many goals as possible (especially as he is not even an out and out striker) but for Chelsea to win games and eventually trophies. A Jackson that is scoring actually helps this objective rather than hindering it. Palmer is not gonna be able to do everything on his own. I've seen so many forwards give pens away, I mentioned Messi, but also Haaland has done it, Osimhen has done it, etc etc. Some players are just greedier than others, but the irony is that the generosity of the guys I've mentioned doesn't seem to harm their stats one bit.
 

troylocker

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There’s English talent like Foden, Saka, Palmer and Bellingham and we end up with Rashford and Sancho :(
Who is equally talented, but we don't manage to get the best out consistantly.
Best ever generation of English attackers? I think so.
 

Chipper

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Yes, Chelsea have had an insane number of penalties compared to how much attacking they actually they do. Would think it's fortunate rather than attacking in a special way that gets them more than penalties. Mind you, nothing to say they can't get attack more in the future, be less efficient at winning penalties and still get a lot.

Another penalty stat - over 90% of penalties have been scored in the league this season. That's a new Premier League record so far. Palmer part of that of course. Are penalty takers particularly good now, goalkeepers bad, or is it just random and we'll see something different next season?
 

troylocker

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You're talking about a bunch of players who play different positions to Palmer. The fact you mentioned Oscar Bobb who has started 4 premier league matches this season probably tells me that you dont understand the phrase "starting lineup".
Palmer can play in all 4 positions in the attack and is very versatile. For City he played all 7 positions in the attack and midfield: LW, RW, AM, CF, CM, LM and RM. The reason I mentioned these players is because I think he would have put all of them behind him in the picking order in that attacking 3 or 4 and would probably already this season start more than not for City, had he stayed. I'm not calling Nunes or Bobb starters, but I'm simply saying even players like them has gotten starts in the attacking 3 this season.
 

giorno

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That’s generally the average of penalties given per team, isn’t it? 0.25 - 0.3 per game.
League penalties taken last 5 seasons
City 11, 9, 9, 10, 6
Liverpool 5, 6, 8, 4, 9
Chelsea 7, 10, 9, 3, 12
Arsenal 3, 6, 8, 4, 9
Manchester United 14, 11, 5, 3, 6
Spurs 4, 5, 5, 6, 1
Villa 23/24 4
Newcastle 22/23 6

Over that span, Palmer has taken the second most penalties over a season by a single player. There's still 6 games left for the season

The top? Bruno Fernandes, with 10 in 20/21. He scored 18 goals in the league that season. The following season he scored 10. Guess why
 

SilentWitness

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Like we've both said, he's a very good player, I wasn't debating that. I also think he can be a 20 goal involvement player in all competitions, even without pens, if he's one of the attacking focal points of his team. But right now, he will finish the season with more than 40 G/A and it's heavily skewed by his last 6 matches, which is definitely a purple patch.

Eventually, his penalty conversion rate will be closer to 80% than 100% as well.

What his real level is is very likely what his stats suggest: Around 24 G/A with pens, and around 17 without them. Still very good, but don't be surprised when he's not putting up this season's numbers year after year. That was my whole point. The purple patch comment was meant for the last 6 games.
We will have to agree to disagree.
 

WeePat

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I think he's played well enough to warrant starting for England over Saka. Probably can link up better with Foden and Grealish. Plus to me he seems to have this almost sociopathic steeliness about him.

Put it this way - if they're taking a penalty to win the world cup, I reckon Palmer is unphased while Saka would be shitting himself.
Nah Saka is a guaranteed starter and he's having a strong enough season of his own for a team challenging for the title. As an England fan, I wouldn't drop him for Palmer.

I don't know if I would force Palmer into the line-up just because of the brilliant season he's having. He could go on the left wing but he has barely there for us, so I would probably go with a more suiting player on that side like Grealish or Gordon. That leaves Palmer to be the back up option on the bench behind Saka and I'm fine with that. What an option to have off the bench.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I mean, I understand that sentiment but the more holistic view is that if Jackson is struggling for goals and giving him a non-crucial pen helps his confidence then why not? 2 goals feels a lot better than one. After all it is not 'Cole Palmer FC', it is 'Chelsea FC' and the goal is not for Cole Palmer to score as many goals as possible (especially as he is not even an out and out striker) but for Chelsea to win games and eventually trophies. A Jackson that is scoring actually helps this objective rather than hindering it. Palmer is not gonna be able to do everything on his own. I've seen so many forwards give pens away, I mentioned Messi, but also Haaland has done it, Osimhen has done it, etc etc. Some players are just greedier than others, but the irony is that the generosity of the guys I've mentioned doesn't seem to harm their stats one bit.
Because he's their penalty taker and he took the penalty. Jackson made himself look like an idiot by demanding a sympathy goal.
 

Apokalips

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Because he's their penalty taker and he took the penalty. Jackson made himself look like an idiot by demanding a sympathy goal.
Exactly, you should accept a sympathy penalty but never beg for one. It is up to the designated taker to allow someone else to take it if he chooses. Jackson really does look like an idiot and so does Madueke.
 

E-mal

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Cole Pfeiffer doing his thing, the hippest salesman from the North-west doing his thing in the south but will he get the Scylla(trophies)?
 

duffer

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Exactly, you should accept a sympathy penalty but never beg for one. It is up to the designated taker to allow someone else to take it if he chooses. Jackson really does look like an idiot and so does Madueke.
You're right but Palmer was not the designated taker. Poch categorically stated there was no set penalty taker and the players on the pitch could sort it out themselves.

After last night's stupidity, Poch changed his mind and now Palmer is the set taker.
 

Kwabs

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Because he's their penalty taker and he took the penalty. Jackson made himself look like an idiot by demanding a sympathy goal.
Palmer was not the set taker prior to this, though. I don't see how Jackson made himself look a fool by asking for it but OK.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Palmer was not the set taker prior to this, though. I don't see how Jackson made himself look a fool by asking for it but OK.
Palmer was not there set penalty taker? He's scored 9 of them for goodness sake. Some of the things you read on here honestly.
 

duffer

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Palmer was not there set penalty taker? He's scored 9 of them for goodness sake. Some of the things you read on here honestly.
Poch had publically said there was not a set taker and it was up to the players on the pitch to decide. Its why we've had Enzo, Sterling, Maduake and Palmer all having taken pens this season and it's why there has been multiple examples of Chelsea players squabbling about pens.

After the game yesterday Poch changed his mind and said Palmer is the taker.
 

Dancfc

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Yes, Chelsea have had an insane number of penalties compared to how much attacking they actually they do. Would think it's fortunate rather than attacking in a special way that gets them more than penalties. Mind you, nothing to say they can't get attack more in the future, be less efficient at winning penalties and still get a lot.

Another penalty stat - over 90% of penalties have been scored in the league this season. That's a new Premier League record so far. Palmer part of that of course. Are penalty takers particularly good now, goalkeepers bad, or is it just random and we'll see something different next season?
Enzo (vs West Ham), Beto (also vs West Ham) and Solanke (vs Sheffield United) are the only players that have had missed penalties cost their team a win, and up until a few weeks ago it was just Enzo.