I sort of warmed to you more when you said you run on the other thread.
That makes someone a decent chap in my book
Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th
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That makes someone a decent chap in my book
god knows. I’ve got him on ignore and I’d urge everyone else to do the same.
mods should step in and ban him, his posts are beyond ridiculous
You managed to find one!Which one ?
Nah, he's too much fun to ban.
If Liverpool are denied the title this year, we'll need as many Liverpool fans on this forum as we can muster.
I sort of warmed to you more when you said you run on the other thread.
That makes someone a decent chap in my book
Probably better if I stick to the General and Other sports yeah, for my own sanity as well!
You won't see me for dust
Nah I'll stay for the craic - there's always next year...
Giving Liverpool the title just because they where probably going to win it is not in the spirit of sporting competition. On that basis, the 2005 Champions League final might as well have gone to AC Milan at half-time
Its utterly ridiculous. We all know that of the season is completed, Liverpool win the league. But you can’t go awarding titles to teams that haven’t won It. Where is the cut off - 25 points, 20, 15, 10, 5,1?
I think unless the season can resume the PPG system seems the fairest way out of this situation. Of course some teams including United will feel that they are being disadvantaged a little bit but there are more important things going on right now than to complain about that.
Utrecht missed out of Europa spots because the Dutch FA froze the table as is. They're looking to sue. Where did the Dutch FA draw the line for Utrecht? -25, 20, 15, 10, 5, 1?
They drew the line where they pretty much wanted to. Same as the PL will for all clubs, including Liverpool. And they will declare the winner where they decide because they can. Will City sue them for declaring us champions? 100% no.
This is such amazingly flawed logic. If they announce the league table as final, we have in fact won it. Like, we're top of the final league. Like, champions?
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In this scenario, suing is just the natural course of action. It’s not a vengeful act or an act of protest, it’s just a club looking to ensure they are financially compensated for missing out on the chance to qualify for Europe and the money that brings.
Equally, you’re going to be financially compensated for first position, it’s not a title but it will be a handsome amount of money and everyone will be happy.
Liverpool will forgo the money for the title. They will sue if denied that. Utrecht want to be in Europe, not just have a bit more money for finishing a bit higher. They want the prestige of Europe as we want the prestige of the title.
I will not be a bit surprised if your lot end up in your best shell suits in court arguing that you should be given a title you haven’t won.
That's not even the half of it.
Hold our beers...I'd agree. I think trying to base outcomes on how likely the position are is just not going to work. The decision should be the same whether a team is 5 or 25 points ahead. I think there just needs to be a defined solution of what to do in cases where all matches in a season can't run, and this solution isn't open to interpretation. Then you decide whether this applies to this season, or whether this season has to be treated differently because the rules weren't already in place. That could mean that you just take current positions/ adjust for PPG etc and some teams might just be unlucky, or it could be some other method.
I don't think we can have a scenario where future seasons are declared null and void due to a new wave or whatever. Given we don't know what the future holds in this regard, we could end up with the next couple of seasons being unpredictable at best and voiding those seems excessive. This is also why I think whatever solution has to be sustainable. The idea of promoting extra teams and not relegating is odd to me as what happens when next season is ended prematurely? Do we promote ANOTHER 2 teams?
Yeah, sure...
no. That’s ridiculous, and literally just proved by the Dutch league. Well done.
can you see that it doesn’t matter whether you are one point or 25 ahead. Liverpool are only champions when the league is completed.
if the league finishes today, your top of the league when it finishes, that doesn’t mean you are the champions.
So Holland have ended their season with no champ and no relegation.
Did they void the results and stats?
Did they void the results and stats?
I agree with that.
I could see the funny side but that doesn't stop me from thinking it isn't the best route to take. I'm not bothered about the tile, it is in comparison of very little significance in relation to promotion and relegations.
Order of priority is and always has been for me
1. No club is relegated without having had the full quota of games to defend their position
(insert a significant distance here)
2. To unless it is deemed completely unworkable, which I can't see how or why it should be, reward clubs that are in current promotion spots if the season can't be played out
(insert a 2x significant distance here)
3. Not to see teams like Leicester and Sheffield United denied European football and all that comes with it
(insert a 5x significant distance here)
4. Avoid a sporting injustice even if it's strictly moral of seeing a team 99% locked-in to win a title denied it.
I fully concede I may not have put some of my points across as well as I could in here, and my rant post about moderation was idiotic and more the culmination of a bad 24 hours personally but I do think all of my posts have had a base to them with logical solutions which were there to be agreed with or disagreed with. I also think Liverpool and the title have been FAR too much in focus in here and that for that reason some of my posts were taken the wrong way when that is by far the least significant aspect. I haven't followed the thread from the beginning but from when I did start I think I may be the only person to have even mentioned any side from L1 or L2 and the fact is that is where most of the attention should be in this process as the further down you go the more impact whatever the decision made is going to have. I couldn't care less if any of United, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal lose £100m through this and i'd much rather they all did than clubs like Coventry, Tranmere, Wimbledon, Swindon etc lost even £500,000.
To be honest it seems not.
What they have actually done is just say the season is ended. Games played, goals scored is still there but noone gets promoted, or relegated, and there are no champions. Yes European spots are based on current standings, which whilst it does seem unfair, is based on UEFA guidelines. Yes it would be gutting for us, but as I have said for a while it doesn't matter. If Sancho or anyone does not want to join based on this season this is just tough really. Will doing this here cause lawsuits? Yep, I am sure any number of Leeds, etc, will want to try and sue for it, how much legal standing they would have I don't know. If the EFL somehow go ahead and finish all games and the PL didn't then they might have (as they actually would have a claim to having completed all games), however that seems unlikely. Will Liverpool sue to get the title? Probably but again if its not mathematically done not sure they have much claim in court.
Having said all that lets hope that the PL can finish all the games based on the above newspaper, whether that would be viable for the EFL I am not so sure. We need the league to finish for CL, and is still my preferred solution. How viable it is, with all the safety issues I am not sure, we would need around 20k lab tests to make this happen at least.
See Dutch league... will apply to every major league in Europe. It’s the only method that prevents wide spread litigation on the basis that nobody benefits from unfinished league...
And it fecks Liverpool so everybody wins
And it fecks Liverpool so everybody wins
If we use last year's placements for Europe Spurs and Arsenal are both rewarded for their worst season in memory with CL football (if City's ban remains in Arsenal's case).
Even though your idea would put us straight back in the CL my "footballing conscience" if you like wouldn't want it, Leicester and Sheffield have earned their European income and the chance that brings to grow as clubs alongside it.
Going to get shit for this. I think they’ll play behind closed doors but if it’s cancelled they should just give the scouse knobs the title it’s like 20+ points
Anyway people to busy talking about them what about top 4 relegation and promotion if it somehow wasnt continuing? We’d hardly accept less than top 4 we where 10 or 11 unbeaten before football was cancelled and Chelsea were shaky all season ?
Anyway people to busy talking about them what about top 4 relegation and promotion if it somehow wasnt continuing? We’d hardly accept less than top 4 we where 10 or 11 unbeaten before football was cancelled and Chelsea were shaky all season ?
I imagine Woodward has a lot of clout within EPL, and will vehemently resist a Points Per Game outcome which would result in our 5th position, unless City miss out on ECL and we take their place.
Bad enough Liverpool winning title in this fashion but losing out on Champions league would be too much to bear.
Personally I don’t care if Liverpool get awarded the title. For me, it will always have an *asterik next to it, and the majority of joy their fans would enjoy has been sucked away.
Am hopeful that if we can somehow get a place in ECL nexr season, we should be able to have a good transfer window to be very competitive next year.
Likewise Liverpool will find it quite hard to maintain their form for a third consecutive season.
Bad enough Liverpool winning title in this fashion but losing out on Champions league would be too much to bear.
Personally I don’t care if Liverpool get awarded the title. For me, it will always have an *asterik next to it, and the majority of joy their fans would enjoy has been sucked away.
Am hopeful that if we can somehow get a place in ECL nexr season, we should be able to have a good transfer window to be very competitive next year.
Likewise Liverpool will find it quite hard to maintain their form for a third consecutive season.
Prestige or respect only exists in the minds of the beholder. Liverpool fans may think they ‘won the title’ but I’d imagine that ‘prestige’ won’t be offered by majority of fans from other clubs.
It would be the most hallow and uncelebrated title win in history of English football. Some of the songs from opposition clubs mocking this title win next year will be hilarious.
The problem is that if you declare a result based on current standings that punishes teams who may well have made a CL place e.g. Utd but it is relegation and promotion that is even more problematic. It will either have to e played out (which isn't easy) or voided which has its own issues.
If I understand correctly, the Eredivisie distributed the European tickets based on this season's standings? If the Premier League would follow the same guidelines and Man City does get banned for CL next season. Would this mean we qualify for CL?
I haven't read up on everything yet, so if I'm missing some crucial elements, feel free to point them out.
I haven't read up on everything yet, so if I'm missing some crucial elements, feel free to point them out.
I guess it will depend on how they handle the fact Sheff United have a game in hand
Sheffield have 51.19% of the maximum points they could have got from 28 games.
United have 51.17% of the maximum points they could have got from 29 games.
Imagine Bournemouth being relegated by a single goal of GD with the season incomplete?
I think the Dutch model is the way to go if we can’t finish the league
the only question mark is how to work out who qualifies for Europe.
I expect Man City to appeal their ban in any case, and so finishing 5th won’t get us CL - and whilst we had the momentum, we can’t possibly say what would happen in a league that never concluded.
without the FA cup there is an extra Europe League place for the league - so that means Utd, Wolves and Sheff Utd qualify for the Europe League? That takes away issue of Sheff Utd’s game in hand.
No champions, No promotion, No relegation.
All matches are recorded as happening, and all stats are in the record books.
Liverpool, City, Leicester and Chelsea - CL based on the league table.
Utd, Wolves and Sheff Utd - EL based on league table
That’s all logical to me and looks like a very neat solution.
It’s only complicated if City are banned, and they work out who out of Utd or Sheff Utd qualify instead and based on whether they use the table as it is or PPG logic then either Arsenal or Spurs make the EL.
the only question mark is how to work out who qualifies for Europe.
I expect Man City to appeal their ban in any case, and so finishing 5th won’t get us CL - and whilst we had the momentum, we can’t possibly say what would happen in a league that never concluded.
without the FA cup there is an extra Europe League place for the league - so that means Utd, Wolves and Sheff Utd qualify for the Europe League? That takes away issue of Sheff Utd’s game in hand.
No champions, No promotion, No relegation.
All matches are recorded as happening, and all stats are in the record books.
Liverpool, City, Leicester and Chelsea - CL based on the league table.
Utd, Wolves and Sheff Utd - EL based on league table
That’s all logical to me and looks like a very neat solution.
It’s only complicated if City are banned, and they work out who out of Utd or Sheff Utd qualify instead and based on whether they use the table as it is or PPG logic then either Arsenal or Spurs make the EL.
I would think it would be done on PPG which United come out marginally on top of. 1.55 ppg to Sheffields 1.53 ppg
OMG like in Holland where the Season has been stopped and no one declared Champion.
Oh, wait....i did that wrong , didn't i?
Boom!
Well no. The idea is that each team plays every other team twice, once at home and once away. That way every team has had the same opportunities to gain points.
To be fair you have to either complete it or scrap it.
I would say the equivalent would be if the FA Cup final last year was halted after 85 minutes, don't think even Watford would argue letting City have it.
Thinking about the way the Dutch has completed the season makes me think the following;
1) current positions and not awarding titles is objective. Should a club decide to sue for losses they'd have to prove losses?
2) should the pl award Liverpool title clubs could question the variables used, biases etc etc. That would be difficult to defend and not in the spirit of UEFA guidelines (sporting merit etc).
3) this leaves what UEFA will use for CL and Europa cup. UEFA have ringfenced the coefficient measure away from the national level. since CL and Europa cup are unlikely to be complete, UEFA are able to apply the coefficient to determine places. If you check those left in the Europa cup united have the highest coefficient. will united get the CL spot based on that measure? Spain and England also have the highest coefficient. it's easy for UEFA to defend since it's a measure already accepted?
4) they're unlikely to extend the season. if they extend the season it undermines the objectivity and makes the length of the extension questionable.
1) current positions and not awarding titles is objective. Should a club decide to sue for losses they'd have to prove losses?
2) should the pl award Liverpool title clubs could question the variables used, biases etc etc. That would be difficult to defend and not in the spirit of UEFA guidelines (sporting merit etc).
3) this leaves what UEFA will use for CL and Europa cup. UEFA have ringfenced the coefficient measure away from the national level. since CL and Europa cup are unlikely to be complete, UEFA are able to apply the coefficient to determine places. If you check those left in the Europa cup united have the highest coefficient. will united get the CL spot based on that measure? Spain and England also have the highest coefficient. it's easy for UEFA to defend since it's a measure already accepted?
4) they're unlikely to extend the season. if they extend the season it undermines the objectivity and makes the length of the extension questionable.
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