Damage done by previous regime

Beans

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But again, how does this work? If we were riding on individual talent, then where is that now? Surely, it's too big of a coincidence that everyone loses form at the same time.

And players liking the manager for giving them freedom - look it's insane to think that manager's pep talk before the game was "go enjoy yourselves out there", because team with no tactics or even a team that shows slight naivety will get trounced 5-0, 6-0 every week irrespective of how good the side is - and that showed towards the end of his reign

He deserved to be sacked, but the truth is a lot more closer to the middle rather than one extreme that people like to think - he took Utd to a point, but was unable to take the final step.
I do think Ole changed tactics and tried to attack more this season, which was disastrous. I think with Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo coming in convinced him he had what he needed to dominate the ball.
 

anant

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Relying on individual talent doesn't mean you win every game, or lose every game, the players are too good for that. What it means is you get incredibly unpredictable results and performances. Some great performances (Newcastle, Leeds and others), some thrashings (Liverpool, City), some surprises and great comebacks (PSG) and a whole lot of mediocrity in between.

A well coached and organised team puts consistent performances in, even if they don't win every game. We never did that under Ole.

Rangnick has thrown the old approach away and is working on the consistent structure. It will take time and there will be a drop as the individual performances are no longer there, but the consistency has not yet arrived.
Again, teams relying on just individual brilliance can't finish 2nd and 3rd in a league like PL, irrespective of how strong they are.

What you're referring to is lack of ideas to tackle certain situations with the players available - for example not being convincing against low blocks at times, struggling to break the press at times. Does not mean that there was no coaching, because a poorly coached team will be as bad as a naive team - which we were this season but not in the previous seasons.

I'd agree that certain attackers had been given all the freedom in the final third, but I'm pretty sure that's because literally each one of them last season (bar Cavani) was more of a flair player and while it can be debated the pros and cons of that, most of these players enjoyed their most productive seasons of their careers then.

Like I've said earlier, Ole/his coaching team weren't dunce nor were they geniuses and the obsession of our fanbase to either make a hero or the villian of everyone at the club is mind-blowing. The truth in most cases is always in the middle.

And as far as Rangnick is concerned, of course he'll take time as he prefers to take a different approach - how it woks over long term is yet to be seen
 

anant

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I do think Ole changed tactics and tried to attack more this season, which was disastrous. I think with Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo coming in convinced him he had what he needed to dominate the ball.
Definitely agree. He was too naive to think having these players would mean we can dominate every game. Without a proper smart and intelligent midfield, no chance anyone can pull that off - mind not defending Ole as he preferred to sign/approve signing of Ronaldo
 

11101

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Again, teams relying on just individual brilliance can't finish 2nd and 3rd in a league like PL, irrespective of how strong they are.

What you're referring to is lack of ideas to tackle certain situations with the players available - for example not being convincing against low blocks at times, struggling to break the press at times. Does not mean that there was no coaching, because a poorly coached team will be as bad as a naive team - which we were this season but not in the previous seasons.

I'd agree that certain attackers had been given all the freedom in the final third, but I'm pretty sure that's because literally each one of them last season (bar Cavani) was more of a flair player and while it can be debated the pros and cons of that, most of these players enjoyed their most productive seasons of their careers then.

Like I've said earlier, Ole/his coaching team weren't dunce nor were they geniuses and the obsession of our fanbase to either make a hero or the villian of everyone at the club is mind-blowing. The truth in most cases is always in the middle.

And as far as Rangnick is concerned, of course he'll take time as he prefers to take a different approach - how it woks over long term is yet to be seen
I don't think anybody is seriously saying Ole was clueless in the basics of setting a team up and coaching it. He was definitely not a genius and i don't think he was even especially good at it. In fact, purely speaking about on pitch matters I would say any manager in the top 2 leagues could have come in and done a similar job. Maybe more than that.
 

anant

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I don't think anybody is seriously saying Ole was clueless in the basics of setting a team up and coaching it. He was definitely not a genius and i don't think he was even especially good at it. In fact, purely speaking about on pitch matters I would say any manager in the top 2 leagues could have come in and done a similar job. Maybe more than that.
In terms of league finishes? How many managers have finished in top4 in consecutive finishes and are said to have done a terrible job? I can promise you there arent many (if any) managers who've done this and are said to have been terrible managers - just for reference Conte couldnt finish in top 4 consecutively during his Chelsea stint.
 

DutchCruijff

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Did he really? How much?
Probably the same amount as the lies he spun to Henderson...AND Bailly...AND van de Beek...AND Mata...AND Martial...

Thank God Ole got the boot. Awful manager.
 

11101

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In terms of league finishes? How many managers have finished in top4 in consecutive finishes and are said to have done a terrible job? I can promise you there arent many (if any) managers who've done this and are said to have been terrible managers - just for reference Conte couldnt finish in top 4 consecutively during his Chelsea stint.
That's why i specified on pitch matters. Ole got our squad in far better shape than any of his predecessors, that he gets credit for. He just didn't know how to get the best out of them.

Look through our squad and we have players who at their best can be world class, with multiple league, Champions League and World Cup winners in there, though none of them have played at that level for us in a long time.
 

Tom Cato

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Relying on individual talent doesn't mean you win every game, or lose every game, the players are too good for that. What it means is you get incredibly unpredictable results and performances. Some great performances (Newcastle, Leeds and others), some thrashings (Liverpool, City), some surprises and great comebacks (PSG) and a whole lot of mediocrity in between.

A well coached and organised team puts consistent performances in, even if they don't win every game. We never did that under Ole.

Rangnick has thrown the old approach away and is working on the consistent structure. It will take time and there will be a drop as the individual performances are no longer there, but the consistency has not yet arrived.
The team was trending strictly upwards before this season, what are you even talking about.
 

11101

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The team was trending strictly upwards before this season, what are you even talking about.
No it wasn't.

Last season we didn't get ourselves firmly into the top 4 until December. We beat City in 1st but lost to Sheffield United in 20th and drew with Fulham and West Brom in 18th and 19th. We lost to Spurs 6:1 and beat Southampton 9:0. Every week was a lottery and the results show it. There is nothing about any of that that suggests consistency.
 

Chesterlestreet

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The team was trending strictly upwards before this season, what are you even talking about.
If you take some assessments on here of Ole - as a manager, on the whole - at face value, the conclusion has to be that something at United is brilliant: the squad (individual players) or the coaching staff (hampered by Ole) - or what?

Because you don't finish 3rd and 2nd in what most people consider the strongest league in the world by pure luck - not in consecutive seasons, and not if the man in charge of the football (which Ole was) is an absolute fraud. If he is that, there has to be something which explains how a team managed by an absolute fraud don't end up far lower in the table.

(And no, certain teams underperforming to various degrees does not explain this - what we're talking about here is the idea that Ole was incompetent, a fraud, etc. Not that he wasn't good enough - which he wasn't, ultimately, nobody presumably denies this).
 

Tom Cato

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No it wasn't.

Last season we didn't get ourselves firmly into the top 4 until December. We beat City in 1st but lost to Sheffield United in 20th and drew with Fulham and West Brom in 18th and 19th. We lost to Spurs 6:1 and beat Southampton 9:0. Every week was a lottery and the results show it. There is nothing about any of that that suggests consistency.
Well we placed 2nd in the Premier League so I don't know what to tell you. That's some luck.
 

anant

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That's why i specified on pitch matters. Ole got our squad in far better shape than any of his predecessors, that he gets credit for. He just didn't know how to get the best out of them.

Look through our squad and we have players who at their best can be world class, with multiple league, Champions League and World Cup winners in there, though none of them have played at that level for us in a long time.
I dont think we're getting anywhere. The point I'm making is similar to what @Chesterlestreet just mentioned. No one denies Ole ultimately came up short with a pretty good side which means that he isnt good enough. But then again, he also finished 2nd and 3rd. Irrespective of the quality of side, you dont finish that high in consecutive seasons unless you are somewhat decent.
 

stevoc

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Probably the same amount as the lies he spun to Henderson...AND Bailly...AND van de Beek...AND Mata...AND Martial...

Thank God Ole got the boot. Awful manager.
Did he really though?

How do you know, are there quotes confirming these promises or is it nonsense you've read on Twitter?

Is Ralf lying to the same players now?
 

stevoc

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No it wasn't.

Last season we didn't get ourselves firmly into the top 4 until December. We beat City in 1st but lost to Sheffield United in 20th and drew with Fulham and West Brom in 18th and 19th. We lost to Spurs 6:1 and beat Southampton 9:0. Every week was a lottery and the results show it. There is nothing about any of that that suggests consistency.
On the 30th of November last season Man City were 10th in the league 2 points behind United. The season also started way later than usual last year so by the end of November teams had only played 9-10 games. They usually get to that stage in early to mid October.
 

stevoc

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If you take some assessments on here of Ole - as a manager, on the whole - at face value, the conclusion has to be that something at United is brilliant: the squad (individual players) or the coaching staff (hampered by Ole) - or what?

Because you don't finish 3rd and 2nd in what most people consider the strongest league in the world by pure luck - not in consecutive seasons, and not if the man in charge of the football (which Ole was) is an absolute fraud. If he is that, there has to be something which explains how a team managed by an absolute fraud don't end up far lower in the table.

(And no, certain teams underperforming to various degrees does not explain this - what we're talking about here is the idea that Ole was incompetent, a fraud, etc. Not that he wasn't good enough - which he wasn't, ultimately, nobody presumably denies this).
Well it is certainly fascinating how the narrative has shifted on here from October/November to now. Back then many were on here every day shouting at anyone who would listen that Solskjaer had to be sacked asap/right now/yesterday as his lack of coaching was wasting our chance to win the league with our World Class squad. He was wasting Ronaldo, he was ruining and wasting years of the careers of Rashford, Greenwood, Sanchez etc. And as soon as we got a proper coach this team would be flying with actual tactics instead of smiles and vibes.

But now we have a vastly experienced and knowledgeable new coach and things aren't exactly going to plan the narrative has changed to the squad is actually a load of shit and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So which of these are actually the case?

A world class squad being held back by a charlatan/fraud of a coach?

Or a crap, bloated, unbalanced squad with a terrible attitude and no winning mentality that Solskjaer actually overachieved with in getting consecutive top 3 finishes for the first time since SAF?
 

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Well it is certainly fascinating how the narrative has shifted on here from October/November to now. Back then many were on here every day shouting at anyone who would listen that Solskjaer had to be sacked asap/right now/yesterday as his lack of coaching was wasting our chance to win the league with our World Class squad. He was wasting Ronaldo, he was ruining and wasting years of the careers of Rashford, Greenwood, Sanchez etc. And as soon as we got a proper coach this team would be flying with actual tactics instead of smiles and vibes.

But now we have a vastly experienced and knowledgeable new coach and things aren't exactly going to plan the narrative has changed to the squad is actually a load of shit and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So which of these are actually the case?

A world class squad being held back by a charlatan/fraud of a coach?

Or a crap, bloated, unbalanced squad with a terrible attitude and no winning mentality that Solskjaer actually overachieved with in getting consecutive top 3 finishes for the first time since SAF?
Spot on (it's the latter). The narrative shift has been interesting (and predictable to some of us) to see.
 

Class of 1902

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Well it is certainly fascinating how the narrative has shifted on here from October/November to now. Back then many were on here every day shouting at anyone who would listen that Solskjaer had to be sacked asap/right now/yesterday as his lack of coaching was wasting our chance to win the league with our World Class squad. He was wasting Ronaldo, he was ruining and wasting years of the careers of Rashford, Greenwood, Sanchez etc. And as soon as we got a proper coach this team would be flying with actual tactics instead of smiles and vibes.

But now we have a vastly experienced and knowledgeable new coach and things aren't exactly going to plan the narrative has changed to the squad is actually a load of shit and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So which of these are actually the case?

A world class squad being held back by a charlatan/fraud of a coach?

Or a crap, bloated, unbalanced squad with a terrible attitude and no winning mentality that Solskjaer actually overachieved with in getting consecutive top 3 finishes for the first time since SAF?
Wan-Bissaka, Maguire, Varane, Telles, Bruno, Van de Beek, Sancho, Ronaldo, Cavani. Not to mention Diallo who cost a small fortune.

This squad is very much Ole's, so let's not act like he operated and performed against all odds. He assembled it.
 

stevoc

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Spot on (it's the latter). The narrative shift has been interesting (and predictable to some of us) to see.
Personally I think the truth as is usually the case, is somewhere in between.

We have a good squad with some great players but there are problems there and Solskjaer isn't nearly as bad a manger as some on here seem to think and while he did a decent job for 2 years he ultimately wasn't good enough to take this squad to the next level.
 

ManchesterManchester

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Damage done under Ole? minor damage to be honest because we are exactly where we are when he took over. He didn’t improve us or make us worst. It’s not like he took over a title winning squad and dismantled it.

The only regime are the board and unfortunately they are still here
 

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Personally I think the truth as is usually the case, is somewhere in between.

We have a good squad with some great players but there are problems there and Solskjaer isn't nearly as bad a manger as some on here seem to think and while he did a decent job for 2 years he ultimately wasn't good enough to take this squad to the next level.
This is exactly it. If we had Sir Alex in charge of this squad we'd be competing with Man City for the league title right now.
 

ManchesterManchester

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This is exactly it. If we had Sir Alex in charge of this squad we'd be competing with Man City for the league title right now.
I don’t see how Fergie could ever challenge with this squad if he was brought in like Ralf was. He couldn’t take over and wave a magic wand.

It took Fergie years to establish a good culture and stamp out the drinking culture when he came here. He would need to do the same if he came in today even if he was in his prime. Loosing players on big wages, those who can’t be bothered etc
 

United492

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No it wasn't.

Last season we didn't get ourselves firmly into the top 4 until December. We beat City in 1st but lost to Sheffield United in 20th and drew with Fulham and West Brom in 18th and 19th. We lost to Spurs 6:1 and beat Southampton 9:0. Every week was a lottery and the results show it. There is nothing about any of that that suggests consistency.
Some say that these types of results are what makes the premier league what it is - Ralf mentioned it in his presser. The spurs and Soton games are slight anomalies due to the red cards involved early (very early) in the games. The GENERAL trend though was that we did improve, albeit only slightly.

The main issue Ole has left is the result of his hording of players - how big is our squad now? How many players have we retained on ridiculous contracts rather than letting go? The same players that have been promised playing time, but due to the bloated squad, aren't getting it, resulting in reported tantrums etc.

The legacy of the previous regime is one of a bloated, disgruntled squad. If the fat had been trimmed and Ole had been a bit more ruthless, we may well have had a smaller, more cohesive "team-like" squad pulling in the same direction, as opposed to what we have now where nobody wants to leave because they've got it made.

Who knows eh.
 

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His own talent hoarding got him fired. Awful squad management has us in a situation where fringe players are large enough to cause a distraction because of foolish assurances. Half a billion wasn't just enough, it imploded his tenure. You know he's a bad manager when being allowed to spend more gets him fired. You're supposed to get better the more you're backed. Good luck on his next job.

edit. Spent almost half a billion and we're still talking squad quality. Would have been better off putting that money towards an MLM.
 
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Caesar2290

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Looking at how we've suddenly decided to get rid of Martial, Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB shows how bad the previous regime was at squad management. Kind of shows how out of his depth Ole was, trying to appease everyone and fearing player power.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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We beat City in 1st but lost to Sheffield United in 20th and drew with Fulham and West Brom in 18th and 19th. We lost to Spurs 6:1 and beat Southampton 9:0.
Barcelona beat 2nd placed team Real Madrid but lost to Numancia in 19th, Osasuna in 15th, and drew to Betis in 18th and Getafe in 17th. They beat 3rd placed Sevilla 0-3 but lost to 4th placed Atletico 4-3. Very inconsistent results.

Wait, what's that? They won a sextuple that season? Hmm. Weird!
 

stevoc

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Looking at how we've suddenly decided to get rid of Martial, Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB shows how bad the previous regime was at squad management. Kind of shows how out of his depth Ole was, trying to appease everyone and fearing player power.
Did Solskjaer have 100% control of which players were bought/sold and over contract renewals?
 

Andycoleno9

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Did Solskjaer have 100% control of which players were bought/sold and over contract renewals?
Yes, he did. No manager in Europe didn't have control like he had in United. Why would we hugely overpayed for Maguire and AWB? Because they are shiny now toys type of players which Ed likes to buy?
We gave complete freedom to manager who was out of depth. And we are paying the price now
 

stevoc

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Yes, he did. No manager in Europe didn't have control like he had in United. Why would we hugely overpayed for Maguire and AWB? Because they are shiny now toys type of players which Ed likes to buy?
We gave complete freedom to manager who was out of depth. And we are paying the price now
No he actually didn't mate, the club has a transfer committee.

Jones contract was renewed before he was even the permanent manager, and the club has a post SAF history of renewing the contracts of players they really shouldn't. The club denied Mourinho transfers which shows that the managers power at United has been eroded in recent years.
 

romufc

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Looking at how we've suddenly decided to get rid of Martial, Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB shows how bad the previous regime was at squad management. Kind of shows how out of his depth Ole was, trying to appease everyone and fearing player power.
Suddenly? Lingard was always leaving, hence he is in his final year. The funny thing is you are pointing fingers at Ole when 4/5 were not even his signings :lol:

Martial has a terrible attitude and was given his chances by Ole as a 9, done if for 1/2 a season then gave up because the pressure got to him.

Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB are not good enough anyway, they didnt even start under Ole either.
 
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If you take some assessments on here of Ole - as a manager, on the whole - at face value, the conclusion has to be that something at United is brilliant: the squad (individual players) or the coaching staff (hampered by Ole) - or what?

Because you don't finish 3rd and 2nd in what most people consider the strongest league in the world by pure luck - not in consecutive seasons, and not if the man in charge of the football (which Ole was) is an absolute fraud. If he is that, there has to be something which explains how a team managed by an absolute fraud don't end up far lower in the table.

(And no, certain teams underperforming to various degrees does not explain this - what we're talking about here is the idea that Ole was incompetent, a fraud, etc. Not that he wasn't good enough - which he wasn't, ultimately, nobody presumably denies this).
Spot on. But don't expect to get ANY sensible response from "he is a fraud" brigade
 
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Suddenly? Lingard was always leaving, hence he is in his final year. The funny thing is you are pointing fingers at Ole when 4/5 were not even his signings :lol:

Martial has a terrible attitude and was given his chances by Ole as a 9, done if for 1/2 a season then gave up because the pressure got to him.

Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB are not good enough anyway, they didnt even start under Ole either.
Its incredible. They will look for anything to confirm their biases about Ole. Even blaming him for things that have nothing to do with him
 

90 + 5min

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Yes, he did. No manager in Europe didn't have control like he had in United. Why would we hugely overpayed for Maguire and AWB? Because they are shiny now toys type of players which Ed likes to buy?
We gave complete freedom to manager who was out of depth. And we are paying the price now
Wrong in so many ways.

We overpayed them because they were english. Like Sancho. Every english player cost minimum twice more their real price. Add also that every other club loves to take as much as they can from us because we have money.

Solskjaer did good job until this year. Players failed. Easy to see. Easy to read. Put blame where it should be put.
 

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Suddenly? Lingard was always leaving, hence he is in his final year. The funny thing is you are pointing fingers at Ole when 4/5 were not even his signings :lol:

Martial has a terrible attitude and was given his chances by Ole as a 9, done if for 1/2 a season then gave up because the pressure got to him.

Lingard, Jones, Bailly, VDB are not good enough anyway, they didnt even start under Ole either.
Wasn’t Ole just trying to extend Lingards contract and even talked about it in press conferences or am I making it up?
So if all these players you mentioned were not starting under Ole and he didn’t rate them why not let them go and instead keep hoarding players. Mata, Grant all signed extensions under Ole for what reason?

So you think all of a sudden within months of his sacking the board decides to actively loan or sell these players? The posted you quoted is saying all these players needed to go a season or two ago and you are here acting like it’s not true.

Played the same exact players shit or not, same formation working or not. Terrible squad management. Worse I have seen
 

romufc

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Wasn’t Ole just trying to extend Lingards contract and even talked about it in press conferences or am I making it up?
So if all these players you mentioned were not starting under Ole and he didn’t rate them why not let them go and instead keep hoarding players. Mata, Grant all signed extensions under Ole for what reason?

So you think all of a sudden within months of his sacking the board decides to actively loan or sell these players? The posted you quoted is saying all these players needed to go a season or two ago and you are here acting like it’s not true.

Played the same exact players shit or not, same formation working or not. Terrible squad management. Worse I have seen
Extending a contract to secure value v extending the contract to play is 2 different things. Mata and Grant were told about their roles in their team.

I am acting if its not true? Donny was only signed last year but he had to go 2 seasons ago? Martial was scoring 20 goals 2 seasons ago but he had to go 2 seasons ago?

Worst squad management, shit players, shit formation and got 3rd, 2nd and Europa final? How does that happen when everything about the manager is shit? plays shit formation, shit manager, shit players?

There are players at every club that should have gone years ago but you need squad players. Examples include Lingard scoring winner v West Ham this season.

Ole wanted him to renew to play as squad option not first team starter.
 

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Its incredible. They will look for anything to confirm their biases about Ole. Even blaming him for things that have nothing to do with him
Jones, Mata and Matic extended contract under Ole. Martial also.
He publicily said that he wanted Donny. Then he didn't play him, refused to loan him and again refused to play him.
He said to Lingard that he wanted him to stay (and even to sign new contract). Which was the reason why Lingard refused West Ham.

There are no words to describe how bad his man management was.
 

lloyd2wayne

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Extending a contract to secure value v extending the contract to play is 2 different things. Mata and Grant were told about their roles in their team.

I am acting if its not true? Donny was only signed last year but he had to go 2 seasons ago? Martial was scoring 20 goals 2 seasons ago but he had to go 2 seasons ago?

Worst squad management, shit players, shit formation and got 3rd, 2nd and Europa final? How does that happen when everything about the manager is shit? plays shit formation, shit manager, shit players?

There are players at every club that should have gone years ago but you need squad players. Examples include Lingard scoring winner v West Ham this season.

Ole wanted him to renew to play as squad option not first team starter.
Wait wait wait….When has Manchester United extended a players contract to preserve value and ever worked out. I mean we couldn’t sell Lingard to West Ham when he was arguably their best player on loan. You must not be following the club then.

Mata and Grants role was never to play so what was their role again? For experience, role models? We have Ronaldo and Varane alone for that.

Finished 3rd, 2nd and Europa league final when we dropped out of the champions league isn’t any achievement to boast about for a club like Manchester United. Wow, we have accepted mediocrity.

If a player has made it very clear from day one like Lingard they don’t want to be a part player and even went on loan to prove that you let them go. You don’t extend their contract in hopes they change their mind to sit on the bench. We have decent academy players who can do that ala Elanga.

Ps- Also I said A YEAR or TWO meaning Bailly and Jones should have left two years ago if not years ago? And Martial and Donny should have left a year ago, so why are you making it sound like I meant Martial and Donny should have left 2 years ago? It’s clear they should have left a year ago if they weren’t in the managers plan.
 
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romufc

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Wait wait wait….When has Manchester United extended a players contract to preserve value and ever worked out. I mean we couldn’t sell Lingard to West Ham when he was arguably their best player on loan. You must not be following the club then.

Mata and Grants role was never to play so what was their role again? For experience, role models? We have Ronaldo and Varane alone for that.

Finished 3rd, 2nd and Europa league final when we dropped out of the champions league isn’t any achievement to boast about for a club like Manchester United. Wow, we have accepted mediocrity.

If a player has made it very clear from day one like Lingard they don’t want to be a part player and even went on loan to prove that you let them go. You don’t extend their contract in hopes they change their mind to sit on the bench. We have decent academy players who can do that ala Elanga.

Ps- Also I said A YEAR or TWO meaning Bailly and Jones should have left two years ago if not years ago? And Martial and Donny should have left a year ago, so why are you making it sound like I meant Martial and Donny should have left 2 years ago? It’s clear they should have left a year ago if they weren’t in the managers plan.
No, West Ham didn't really want him. They offered £10m for their best player but didn't want to pay it, instead spend £25m (what United were asking for) on Vlasic who doesnt play. If teams don't rate Lingard enough to pay

No Grant's role is to be 3rd keeper, incase two keepers are injured, nothing wrong in that really. Not like he is on 200k or something.

Oh really? so you are a mind reader? You knew that Donny and Martial were not in Ole's plans last season? Even though Martial was Ole's choice of 9. Maybe you need to follow the club.