Declan Rice

[kidbob]

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Whether or not we can make it work, I think Ole would be tempted to experiment with a DM, Bruno and Pogba more advanced than the double pivot after seeing him shine there and Pogba himself stating he loves playing at the attacking left

If this is the planned route forward then I think it only works if we sign another CM along with Rice. We'd still need a CM whose strength is in controlling the tempo and is an effective player at progressing the ball though midfield. If we could find the right player for that role then Rice would start to look like a very good signing. However then I'd wonder about Sancho for the RW. Would it really be effective to have 2 playmaking wide men instead of having more typical winger with pace who can beat a full back.

 

[croadyman]

If this is the planned route forward then I think it only works if we sign another CM along with Rice. We'd still need a CM whose strength is in controlling the tempo and is an effective player at progressing the ball though midfield. If we could find the right player for that role then Rice would start to look like a very good signing. However then I'd wonder about Sancho for the RW. Would it really be effective to have 2 playmaking wide men instead of having more typical winger with pace who can beat a full back.

Know he hasn't shown much evidence but could Donny be that tempo controller given a proper pre-season after the euros

 

[OrcaFat]

I don’t get this.

What exactly is so unbalanced about Rice, Pogba and Bruno Fernandes?

Bruno is a CM playing as a CAM in my opinion. (He is regarded as a CM in Portugal). We literally see him run all over the pitch whenever the ball is lost. He makes runs in to creative space rather than sticking to this CAM position all the time as if he was Ozil.

He is one of the most movement based players in our squad and for me - him starting a little deeper would just mean he has to move forward when he has the ball more so than running around like a mad man whenever he loses the ball further up the pitch.

If City could do it with 2 CAM’s in de Bruyne and David Silva - I don’t really see why we would struggle this much with 2 attacking minded CM (which is different) with much better defensive ability in them (in comparison to Silva and De Bruyne). I get that Pep’s team have the benefits of possession football- but again, we are not playing with 2 CAM and one 1 CDM. We are playing with 2 creative Centre midfielders that have routinely started deeper in their lives and they will be protected by a pure ball winning midfielder.

In my opinion Bruno and Pogba are not quite attuned to the defensive element required of a number 8. I read your post and it all looks logical but I don’t think it will pan out too well in practice. They are both better off taking risks up the sharp end.

If we try it and I’m wrong I will be truly delighted. I just get images of Pogba dicking about with it in our defensive third, slowing it down and putting the defence in a hole. I’m not saying he’s compelled to do that just that he probably will.

 

[bosskeano]

If we try it and play Pogba in the middle with Fred or Scott behind Bruno....there will be a defensive hole the size of Spain in the middle of the pitch on our defensive side

 

[passing-wind]

I don’t get this.

What exactly is so unbalanced about Rice, Pogba and Bruno Fernandes?

Bruno is a CM playing as a CAM in my opinion. (He is regarded as a CM in Portugal). We literally see him run all over the pitch whenever the ball is lost. He makes runs in to creative space rather than sticking to this CAM position all the time as if he was Ozil.

He is one of the most movement based players in our squad and for me - him starting a little deeper would just mean he has to move forward when he has the ball more so than running around like a mad man whenever he loses the ball further up the pitch.

If City could do it with 2 CAM’s in de Bruyne and David Silva - I don’t really see why we would struggle this much with 2 attacking minded CM (which is different) with much better defensive ability in them (in comparison to Silva and De Bruyne). I get that Pep’s team have the benefits of possession football- but again, we are not playing with 2 CAM and one 1 CDM. We are playing with 2 creative Centre midfielders that have routinely started deeper in their lives and they will be protected by a pure ball winning midfielder.

I agree the importance of a pure defensive midfielder would balance the midfield better than Fred / McTominay partnership. The consensus even in the media is that the double pivot pairing is not good enough.

If someone would have told me that David Silva / De Bryune would pair in the midfield given their careers at Wolfsburg / Valencia I'd have said it wasn't possible. It goes to show with the right balance and tactical approach players can adapt.

Pogba, Bruno and Rice is better than anything else we have at present.

 

[OrcaFat]

I agree the importance of a pure defensive midfielder would balance the midfield better than Fred / McTominay partnership. The consensus even in the media is that the double pivot pairing is not good enough.

If someone would have told me that David Silva / De Bryune would pair in the midfield given their careers at Wolfsburg / Valencia I'd have said it wasn't possible. It goes to show with the right balance and tactical approach players can adapt.

Pogba, Bruno and Rice is better than anything else we have at present.

The last part is true, mainly because Rice immediately improves the midfield whoever else we put in there.

Silva / De Bruyne and Bruno / Pogba are night and day when it comes to retaining the ball through the midfield. Our boys are great and, Bruno especially, very effective offensively but they lose the ball too much to start depending on them in deeper areas.

 

[manutddjw]

I usually don’t have a problem with us paying an obscene fee but only if there aren’t other options. Harry Maguire is a good example of this. We needed a ready made defender and there weren’t many quality CB’s out there so it was either unattainable players or young and learning (de ligt, Upamecano for example). I had no problem with the Maguire fee for that reason and it’s worked out well.

In contrast we have Declan Rice. Good player but there are quite a few players who can do what he does and as good as he does, for at least half the price. He’s not worth paying over the odds for like Maguire was.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

In contrast we have Declan Rice. Good player but there are quite a few players who can do what he does and as good as he does, for at least half the price. He’s not worth paying over the odds for like Maguire was.

Who?

 

[manutddjw]

Who?

I think Ndidi could be had for about 60 Million way less than the reported price for Rice. I do like Bissouma who would probably be like 35. I think Soumare from Lille is a good player as well. I think we’re looking for someone who can defend to cover Pogba and I think these 3 can do it no problem.

 

[golden_blunder]

I think Ndidi could be had for about 60 Million way less than the reported price for Rice. I do like Bissouma who would probably be like 35. I think Soumare from Lille is a good player as well. I think we’re looking for someone who can defend to cover Pogba and I think these 3 can do it no problem.

They are different types to Rice though. He is a sitter. They are not

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I think Ndidi could be had for about 60 Million way less than the reported price for Rice. I do like Bissouma who would probably be like 35. I think Soumare from Lille is a good player as well. I think we’re looking for someone who can defend to cover Pogba and I think these 3 can do it no problem.

I reckon you would be shocked at how far out you are on your Ndidi price. He has been better and is more important for Leicester than Maguire was, midfielder's are also generally more expensive than defenders. I reckon they would ask silly money as they probably don't want to sell him. Again with that said he is nowhere near as good on the ball or as good of a passer as Rice, I think that is really important based on what we need.

From what I have seen of Bissouma he would not be much of an upgrade on Fred.

Soumare is the only one that would be a maybe for me as I have not seen him play so if people said he was as good as Rice then I cannot really argue.

I do reckon Rice at the quoted figures is a good example of the insanity of transfers in 2021 but he is a quality, quality player and I reckon he suits what we need as well as anyone that I have seen that is actually attainable.

I also doubt we are just looking for someone to cover defensive duties for Pogba who in all likelihood will be gone in 12 months. I think we are looking to build a midfield for the future.

 

[Tarrou]

With Rice I kind of feel like it is a what else is there out there option..... not that Rice is amazing and would replace the McT/Fred pairing which is ideally what we want a new DM to do.

I would be more interested in signing Ben White on the cheap from Brighton, he can play DM or CDM and would be an upgrade defensively on those 2 (even if he offered less going forward, we would play Pogba and Bruno in front of him) plus much better than Lindleof defensively.

TBH I would rather put Tuanzebe in DM or Lindelof in DM that spunk mega bucks on Rice who is at best a squad quality DM for a top side, not a 1st 11 starter.

A trio of Ben White, Pogba and Bruno sounds pretty awful

Though I agree that Rice is way overpriced, we need a proper midfielder to control that base

 

[RedRonaldo]

Aight ok pal, we all dreamt Mourinho's reign and his attempts at 4-2-3-1 in 2016. Sure.



So he still had two midfielders playing deeper than him in a midfield 3 and keeping the shape? Right-o.



No they didn't. They played exactly same way they played in 2018, under the very same manager (Deschamps).

In 2016 the midfield was Pogba, Matuidi, Sissoko (with Sissoko being the "wide midfielder" that in fact tucked in to help central midfield) and Payet, Griezman, Giroud being the attacking players. In 2018 Mbappe replaced Payet and Kante replaced Sissoko. Matuidi was now the the "wide midfielder" who tucked in. The team shape and tactics remained exactly the same. France played with 3 midfielders in both tournaments and Pogba was given the most freedom from those 3 to make play and attack.

Any other interesting stories to share?

He is playing as “wide” midfielder, not center or defensive midfielder.

The way I see it, the avg numbers tackles and interception Sissoko has made for France in wide position is not necessary more than a numbers of tackles and interception Bruno has made at United at a more advance position. Why do you assume Bruno offers nothing in defense as CM/AM while the others you mentioned are all part of strong DM when they are actually playing as wide midfield?

I mean, just look at their stats:

Euro 2016
Pogba - 2.4 tackle 1.4 interception
Matuidi - 2.6 tackle 1.1 interception
Sissoko - 1.7 tackle 0.5 interception (wide midfield)

Possible man utd line up:
Pogba - 1.5+ tackle 1+ interception (as no.8)
Strong DM - 2.5+ tackle 1.5+ interception (say)
Bruno - 1.5+ tackle 0.7+ interception (as no.8)

The above shown Pogba has made far far more defensive contribution than Sissoko throughout the tournament. Yet you are just assuming Pogba is liability in defence with Sissoko to help him or cover his ass, which is just totally wrong. At France he always have at least 1 very strong defensive midfielder partner (apparently not referring to Sissoko), at United he doesn’t have it. Why do you assume his failure at United past few years proves he could never do it again given change of circumstance?

 

[RedRonaldo]

Time to know when to stop?

Time to know how to make a counter argument?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

On the arguement concerning whether DM-Pogba-Bruno midfield can work, didn't Leceister do something similar in 2019 when they played 4-3-3 with Ndidi-Tielemans-Maddison. Bruno and Pogba are more similar to Tielemans and Maddison than Kroos and Modric or De Bruybe and Silva

 

[OrcaFat]

On the arguement concerning whether DM-Pogba-Bruno midfield can work, didn't Leceister do something similar in 2019 when they played 4-3-3 with Ndidi-Tielemans-Maddison. Bruno and Pogba are more similar to Tielemans and Maddison than Kroos and Modric or De Bruybe and Silva

I can agree with that, yes, but still not quite the same, of course.

I don’t have any stats but just watching him, Tielemans is more of a traditional no. 8 than Pogba, he seems more comfortable and to behave more conventionally in defensive areas than Pogba.

 

[BallonDor99]

Pogba played more attacking in Italy than he did at Utd

 

[croadyman]

Would like to think we are only going to explore this if we can include Jesse as part of the deal otherwise I am absolutely convinced we will be priced out and could look elsewhere but not a clue who that could be

 

[RedorDead21]

His passing is really average.

And his ability against the press (passing) becomes even worse under pressure.

 

[croadyman]

And his ability against the press (passing) becomes even worse under pressure.

I will admit this is one area of his game that worries me

 

[Commentary]

Well Declan Rice has noted Chelsea as his preferred destination, and now....he's really going to want to go to Chelsea!

I can't think that United will be forced to pay an arm and a leg for him, surely there has to be a young talented CDM somewhere in Europe....what about that kid who plays for AC Milan???

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well Declan Rice has noted Chelsea as his preferred destination, and now....he's really going to want to go to Chelsea!

I can't think that United will be forced to pay an arm and a leg for him, surely there has to be a young talented CDM somewhere in Europe....what about that kid who plays for AC Milan???

Just because Rice wants to go to Chelsea doesn‘t mean Chelsea wants to buy him. I think Chelsea board already made themselves clear after last summer that they didn’t like the idea to pay big money to bring him back, it will take massive cut from what West Ham is asking at the moment to bring him back to Chelsea. Lampard wanted him so badly. I can still see him staying at West Ham this year, he has so many years in his contract at the moment.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

On the arguement concerning whether DM-Pogba-Bruno midfield can work, didn't Leceister do something similar in 2019 when they played 4-3-3 with Ndidi-Tielemans-Maddison. Bruno and Pogba are more similar to Tielemans and Maddison than Kroos and Modric or De Bruybe and Silva

I think we want to control games to a higher degree than Leicester City. Or at least I'd hope so.

 

[dabeast]

"Man of the match N'Golo Kante did not concede a foul in the whole game. Not one. He did that while also winning the most duels (11) and making the most ball recoveries (10) in the final.

Another perfectly on-brand stat for Kante -- he won four aerial duels on the night, the most by any Chelsea player. This from the shortest player on the pitch. Kante was also the man of the match in both legs of Chelsea's semifinal against Real Madrid."

Kante wins Chelsea the CL

Makelele changed Real Madrid, and then Chelsea and now Kante has won Chelsea the CL. Roy Keane and then, to a lesser degree, Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick changed Utd, but we have failed to buy a decent DM since. Tom Cleverley, Anderson, Scholes out of retirement, a broken down Schweinsteiger, an out-of-his-depth Schneiderlin, a shoehorned Paul Pogba, a past-it Matic and now McFred (McT might still make it but Fred is not MUQ) have meant that No 6 is a garbage position that we don't care about and it has cost us titles, cups and, most importantly, fans.

To do well, we need to buy a world-class DM this summer (James Garner might be part of the future but he is not part of the present) who will hold down the position for the next 5 years. You can't blame us for not going for Kante in the French second-division but you can for not getting him at 32m after Leicester won the PL. This is the most crucial buy since Carrick (who allowed us to win the CL), if we get this wrong we will remain also-rans for the foreseeable future.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

"Man of the match N'Golo Kante did not concede a foul in the whole game. Not one. He did that while also winning the most duels (11) and making the most ball recoveries (10) in the final.

Another perfectly on-brand stat for Kante -- he won four aerial duels on the night, the most by any Chelsea player. This from the shortest player on the pitch. Kante was also the man of the match in both legs of Chelsea's semifinal against Real Madrid."

Kante wins Chelsea the CL

Makelele changed Real Madrid, and then Chelsea and now Kante has won Chelsea the CL. Roy Keane and then, to a lesser degree, Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick changed Utd, but we have failed to buy a decent DM since. Tom Cleverley, Anderson, Scholes out of retirement, a broken down Schweinsteiger, an out-of-his-depth Schneiderlin, a shoehorned Paul Pogba, a past-it Matic and now McFred (McT might still make it but Fred is not MUQ) have meant that No 6 is a garbage position that we don't care about and it has cost us titles, cups and, most importantly, fans.

To do well, we need to buy a world-class DM this summer (James Garner might be part of the future but he is not part of the present) who will hold down the position for the next 5 years. You can't blame us for not going for Kante in the French second-division but you can for not getting him at 32m after Leicester won the PL. This is the most crucial buy since Carrick (who allowed us to win the CL), if we get this wrong we will remain also-rans for the foreseeable future.

Kante is much more comfortable on the ball than Rice who appears much more limited. Watching these teams compete for the CL and PL title, can't help but feel you need a set of midfielders than aren't laborious and clumsy on the ball. Adding Rice to Fred, Mctominay and Matic, will leave our midfield comfortably behind at controlling games as compared to the top sides. I think we need someone much better on the ball. Kante for example isn't the best passer but he's got the ability to drive forward and is dynamic on the ball, so he's very different to Rice. I can see Rice being an AWB type signing. Impressive at defending but the groans over his lack of ability will be amplified at a big club, and constantly be a discussion point.

 

[smi11ie]

I just don't get the Rice thing. He has come on to the radar this year. He is not in the same league as Kante. He is a decent player but he is no world-beater. Don't see why he should be valued at any more than 20-30 million.

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

Sporting also has a really good young b2b midfielder in Matheus Nunes.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Kante is much more comfortable on the ball than Rice who appears much more limited. Watching these teams compete for the CL and PL title, can't help but feel you need a set of midfielders than aren't laborious and clumsy on the ball. Adding Rice to Fred, Mctominay and Matic, will leave our midfield comfortably behind at controlling games as compared to the top sides. I think we need someone much better on the ball. Kante for example isn't the best passer but he's got the ability to drive forward and is dynamic on the ball, so he's very different to Rice. I can see Rice being an AWB type signing. Impressive at defending but the groans over his lack of ability will be amplified at a big club, and constantly be a discussion point.

Kante isn’t more comfortable on the ball than Rice. Kante has had many poor games for Chelsea and France TBF. He excelled last night in a team that was the sum of its parts and many performances could have got a MOM. If we’re honest, he wasn’t any better than McT was for us in the final but we were let down by some very poor performances and a strategy that was baffling. Maybe Rice isn’t the answer but it’s ridiculous to suggest he’s poor. He’s far more adept to breaking from deep but he’s also in a team that is powerful physically and plays to his strengths.
I just don't get the Rice thing. He has come on to the radar this year. He is not in the same league as Kante. He is a decent player but he is no world-beater. Don't see why he should be valued at any more than 20-30 million.

You haven’t seen enough of him to make that call. He’s been coming through for 2 seasons and has improved each time. As for not being in the same league, Kante was in a good Leicester side that had Mahrez named POY and all their players had great seasons. He needed time to come good and was given it. Why cant Rice be the same?
For Kante to be effective he needs the team around him to function at their optimum as they did last night. It wasn’t long ago that not many in the Caf wanted him saying his injuries had caught up with him.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You haven’t seen enough of him to make that call. He’s been coming through for 2 seasons and has improved each time. As for not being in the same league, Kante was in a good Leicester side that had Mahrez named POY and all their players had great seasons. He needed time to come good and was given it. Why cant Rice be the same?
For Kante to be effective he needs the team around him to function at their optimum as they did last night. It wasn’t long ago that not many in the Caf wanted him saying his injuries had caught up with him.

Why can't every player be the same? If it were so easy there would be more players of Kante's level.

 

[smi11ie]

You haven’t seen enough of him to make that call. He’s been coming through for 2 seasons and has improved each time. As for not being in the same league, Kante was in a good Leicester side that had Mahrez named POY and all their players had great seasons. He needed time to come good and was given it. Why cant Rice be the same?
For Kante to be effective he needs the team around him to function at their optimum as they did last night. It wasn’t long ago that not many in the Caf wanted him saying his injuries had caught up with him.

The fee is too big for "potential".

 

[smi11ie]

You haven’t seen enough of him to make that call. He’s been coming through for 2 seasons and has improved each time. As for not being in the same league, Kante was in a good Leicester side that had Mahrez named POY and all their players had great seasons. He needed time to come good and was given it. Why cant Rice be the same?
For Kante to be effective he needs the team around him to function at their optimum as they did last night. It wasn’t long ago that not many in the Caf wanted him saying his injuries had caught up with him.

Kante was voted player of the year by Leicester City in his one and only season with the club. He converted his "potential" into a EPL winners medal and he earned a £32 million move to Chelsea and a place in the World Cup winning France team. Rice has done feck all and his fee is at least double that of Kante.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why can't every player be the same? If it were so easy there would be more players of Kante's level.

He’s a one off that the point. The constant comparison with Rice is wearing thin.

Rice is completely different and again, maybe he isn’t what we need but he’s still a god young player with potential.
My own preference which is and always been is Bissouma

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Kante was voted player of the year by Leicester City in his one and only season with the club. He converted his "potential" into a EPL winners medal and he earned a £32 million move to Chelsea and a place in the World Cup winning France team. Rice has done feck all and his fee is at least double that of Kante.

Yes he was while Mahrez ran away with all the other awards. Moot point. Leicester wouldn’t have won the PL without all their players contributing. That’s how it works. That’s how Chelsea won last night, he was good along with at 6 others who performed really well. Rudigers and Christiansen’s blocks. James impeccable marshalling of Sterling, Chillwell very disciplined, Mount and Havertz causing all sorts of problems . Chelsea wouldn’t have won without them turning up

 

[OrcaFat]

Rice is very good. Kante is obviously extremely good.

If anyone thinks we can get Kante, I’ll be more than happy. Very very unlikely.

Rice is one of the best in his position. We have to buy from the pot of available / attainable players.

If we do buy him, it’s not for his potential, he’s already very good. But he is likely to become a heck of a lot better with experience and that is worth something as well.

 

[golden_blunder]

Kante is much more comfortable on the ball than Rice who appears much more limited. Watching these teams compete for the CL and PL title, can't help but feel you need a set of midfielders than aren't laborious and clumsy on the ball. Adding Rice to Fred, Mctominay and Matic, will leave our midfield comfortably behind at controlling games as compared to the top sides. I think we need someone much better on the ball. Kante for example isn't the best passer but he's got the ability to drive forward and is dynamic on the ball, so he's very different to Rice. I can see Rice being an AWB type signing. Impressive at defending but the groans over his lack of ability will be amplified at a big club, and constantly be a discussion point.

Sorry Amol you make it sound like rice and AWB cannot pass a ball - they can. AWB was arguably our best player in the final, making a good number of chances down the right side. Watch how good he becomes as he matures.

you are totally under selling rice too. It’s an internet myth that he can’t pass. Just because he keeps it simple doesn’t mean anything. Do you see Kante hitting many long balls?

 

[golden_blunder]

I honestly think if a young Roy Keane was available on the market now this place would prefer everyone else

 

[Bebestation]

It’s like some people don’t watch football.

What’s comparable between Rice and Kante? They play in such different ways.

It’s like comparing an inverted forward likeRashford to someone who consistently stays out wide like Antonio Valencia.

2 different types of players.

 

[RUCK4444]

I honestly think if a young Roy Keane was available on the market now this place would prefer everyone else

Does Rice remind you of Roy?

 

[golden_blunder]

Does Rice remind you of Roy?

Not my point

 

[CM]

Not my point

What was your point then?