Dele Alli is England's best young midfielder playing in Turkey

[bosnian_red]

This is based on nothing though, you could say someone who plays pub football has potential but unless they do it when it counts, consistently and at the highest level it means very little.

Based on whats actually happened rather than what might or might not, Martial has some catching up to do on Alli.

Hopefully Martial will hit the heights we're expecting of him but we need to see a hell of a lot more before we can suggest he will surpass Alli, never mind achieving more than Muller, a player who has won it all.

But the argument is purely based on potential here, and thats "fulfuilling what we expect of him". Progression isnt a linear thing with young players, some player reach a high level at an earlier age, some later, a lot impacted by the team they're in and roles they have within it. Put martial in City's side right now and he'd be tearing up the league, no doubt about it in my mind at all.

Also as for what he has to do to surpass alli, well hes been head and shoulders above Alli so far this season (as Alli has underperformed most games/been non existant). They had very similar first seasons as well. So really its just last season when Mourinho came which is the difference.

 

[bosnian_red]

Martial is a prettier player to watch. That's why fans will have him above Alli. Alli is better right now, potential wise I have him edging it as well. He looks the more rounded player.



Muller was a big player for Bayern. He has been struggling lately but he was playing at a very high level. It could easily be argued that he was at world class level.

Agree he was a big player for them - but never someone with the status like Lewandowski has for them. Lewandowski plays no matter what, as hes truly world class. Muller would get dropped through runs of poor form or wouldnt be effective at times. Very good, but a tier below world class imo. Can see the argument though.

On Alli - agree hes been a better player over his first 3 years, mainly due to last season. Martial has been better this season (and more productive in pretty much half the minutes played), but a lot of time their level is dependent on the teams they play for and system they are in. There are few teams who have had more changes over the last few years then we have, so naturally some players dont adjust right away or go through inconsistent spells. Not to mention Mourinho has so far preferred rashford for tactical preferences so Martial hasnt had the same role in the squad like Alli to develop more earlier.

Also somebody mentioned Ravel Morrison as like a counter point but its my point exactly - he had enormous potential and he never reached it. Being more talented isnt a guarantee of being a better player, but it gives you a better chance to become a better player IMO. And that's pretty much what I've been saying. Alli is good but he isnt elite in terms of natural ability and potential like Mbappe, Dembele, asensio, Jesus and Martial who I would put on that level.

 

[M Bison]

But the argument is purely based on potential here, and thats "fulfuilling what we expect of him". Progression isnt a linear thing with young players, some player reach a high level at an earlier age, some later, a lot impacted by the team they're in and roles they have within it. Put martial in City's side right now and he'd be tearing up the league, no doubt about it in my mind at all.

Also as for what he has to do to surpass alli, well hes been head and shoulders above Alli so far this season (as Alli has underperformed most games/been non existant). They had very similar first seasons as well. So really its just last season when Mourinho came which is the difference.

That's my point really, its kind of an arbitrary discussion. You could say that one players ceiling is higher than anothers and a fan of another club would likely disagree. "Potential" is completely subjective and has no substance to it.

 

[Cockney-Red]

If Martial was that good, he wouldn't be starting on the bench for the current Manchester United.

He could become the player we all thought, when we signed him from Monaco, but we obviously have no idea how he's going to develop over the next few years.

 

[balaks]

But the argument is purely based on potential here, and thats "fulfuilling what we expect of him". Progression isnt a linear thing with young players, some player reach a high level at an earlier age, some later, a lot impacted by the team they're in and roles they have within it. Put martial in City's side right now and he'd be tearing up the league, no doubt about it in my mind at all.

Also as for what he has to do to surpass alli, well hes been head and shoulders above Alli so far this season (as Alli has underperformed most games/been non existant). They had very similar first seasons as well. So really its just last season when Mourinho came which is the difference.

How could Martial who currently cant get a starting place for Utd get a starting place in that City team? Your argument is based on not much other than blind bias.

 

[bosnian_red]

How could Martial who currently cant get a starting place for Utd get a starting place in that City team? Your argument is based on not much other than blind bias.

Based off of the type of player he is and what Pep likes and the positions his wide players get into. Wide players in City's side under Pep get in advanced positions all the time, and constantly in 1v1 scenarios and there are very, very few better players at dribbling past players 1v1 then Martial right now. Also most people think Martial should be starting every week, him not starting is mostly due to Mourinho prioritizing defensive shape. Saying stuff like doesn't start for Mourinho at United every week doesn't mean much when talking about who would start under Pep. Completely different styles and Martial would suit Guardiola way more IMO. It's not blind bias - it's based off of seeing both the player and the managers and seeing what they like for a long time and enough to know how they would use the players. Martial under Mourinho spends a lot of time further back then wingers do in Pep's systems, and Mourinho at United has basically a target man, 1 pacey player to be a threat and then the rest are "controlling players". Pogba helps open up space a lot for our players and would improve the performances of our wingers too but he's been injured for 2 months. But it's a lot more difficult to perform for a player like Martial in a system like United's current (and he is still performing very well this season), compared to City's where they have Aguero/Jesus, Sane, Sterling as a front 3 and De Bruyne/Silva behind them playing the ball really quickly. And 2 attacking fullbacks behind their wingers. Martial would be lethal in that side.

 

[Prodigal7]

Martial starts from the bench majority of times for Manchester United, only just got recalled in the France squad recently for a friendly.

How anyone can say he’s better than Dele Alli is beyond me, more talented is up for debate, depends what you look for in talent and if you don’t ignore other aspects of football. If you do that, not sure how people can put Martial ahead of Alli, when Martial isn’t even ahead of his field (in terms of talent) of the skill/speed merchants, whereas Dele Alli is at the forefront of his area of expertise.

Ravel Morrison is the most talented youngster I’ve ever seen at Manchester United, look where this talent got him!

Fact of the matter his Dele Alli is doing the business, scored 20+ goals from midfield 2017, put teams like Real Madrid to the sword whereas (as said) Martial rarely starts and looks half-arsed most of the time he plays.

Martial is a great talent for sure, but if you want to talk about ‘overrated’, no player is more overrated than Martial on the RedCafe.

Ali is barely a midfielder. He's more of a second striker.

 

[M Bison]

Based off of the type of player he is and what Pep likes and the positions his wide players get into. Wide players in City's side under Pep get in advanced positions all the time, and constantly in 1v1 scenarios and there are very, very few better players at dribbling past players 1v1 then Martial right now. Also most people think Martial should be starting every week, him not starting is mostly due to Mourinho prioritizing defensive shape. Saying stuff like doesn't start for Mourinho at United every week doesn't mean much when talking about who would start under Pep. Completely different styles and Martial would suit Guardiola way more IMO. It's not blind bias - it's based off of seeing both the player and the managers and seeing what they like for a long time and enough to know how they would use the players. Martial under Mourinho spends a lot of time further back then wingers do in Pep's systems, and Mourinho at United has basically a target man, 1 pacey player to be a threat and then the rest are "controlling players". Pogba helps open up space a lot for our players and would improve the performances of our wingers too but he's been injured for 2 months. But it's a lot more difficult to perform for a player like Martial in a system like United's current (and he is still performing very well this season), compared to City's where they have Aguero/Jesus, Sane, Sterling as a front 3 and De Bruyne/Silva behind them playing the ball really quickly. And 2 attacking fullbacks behind their wingers. Martial would be lethal in that side.

Again, this is all based on absolutely nothing but guess work. No one will ever know if Martial would be lethal in that City side, the fact is, he plays for us and has done ok up to now, but has been far from lethal! As has been the case in the past 2 seasons, simply ok.

If Martial had the ability and was currently (not potentially) better than all of the players mentioned in this thread, he'd be a guaranteed starter for us and we'd likely be in a stronger position with a player who is scoring more freely. Unfortunately thats not the case.

I think you're overrating Martial massively, i doubt if he played for a different club you'd be as positive of him.

 

[bosnian_red]

Again, this is all based on absolutely nothing but guess work. No one will ever know if Martial would be lethal in that City side, the fact is, he plays for us and has done ok up to now, but has been far from lethal! As has been the case in the past 2 seasons, simply ok.

If Martial had the ability and was currently (not potentially) better than all of the players mentioned in this thread, he'd be a guaranteed starter for us and we'd likely be in a stronger position with a player who is scoring more freely. Unfortunately thats not the case.

I think you're overrating Martial massively, i doubt if he played for a different club you'd be as positive of him.

Nah I thought he had enormous potential even before we got him and feel like if he leaves because of this dumb rotation with Rashford thing then he'll go to one of the top teams like Barca and turn into a world class player there. Potential wise he's up there with Mbappe, Dembele and Jesus for me, and there's plenty of people who feel like that about him too (not just United fans). It's constant questions from opposing fans of why he isn't playing more despite every game having highlight worthy moments, and it's going to keep being asked until he's an automatic starter like he should be. Also compare it to that City side. Any attacking player would score and assist more for Pep then they do for Mourinho, given similar playing time. There's very little doubt about that for most people I'd say. Sterling for example this season is at 11 goals already, but he isn't a patch on Martial talent wise and in terms of goalscoring IMO. Hell he has just 1 goal less then Lukaku. It's because of the system he's in. Mourinho just doesn't get the best out of players like Martial unlike some other managers. He wants him to be capable of putting in all the defensive work and play further back and all that, when most managers would try to get the most out of his rare mix of talent with his pace, strength, dribbling and finishing. He's got all the raw talent and physicality to become a brilliant player, and it's not like it's a case of him having a shit mentality either like Ravel Morrison who didn't work hard in training or never put in the work to develop.
Or look at Hazard. Mourinho in his second season benched him a lot and tried to get him to play more defensively, work harder from a defensive view point and play further back. Fair enough, it's his style. But that doesn't get the best out of a ridiculously talented attacking player like Hazard.

Anyway, this is the Dele Alli thread, nothing to do with Martial and Mourinho's attacking tactics. Original point was that while Dele Alli is obviously a very good young player, I wouldn't say he is on the elite level potential wise like Dembele, Mbappe, Martial, Asensio or Jesus are (and Martial was easily rated as that after his first season at United, one off season under Mourinho doesn't change that).

 

[Number1]

Ali is barely a midfielder. He's more of a second striker.

We keep hearing that on here but he's not, watch his allround play, it's mainly central midfield area, he plays too deep to be classed as a 2nd striker.

Sure he gets in the box on attacks and has a knack of being in the right positions at the right time, so has a free role to do that, but this license to do that does not make him a SS.

 

[Prodigal7]

We keep hearing that on here but he's not, watch his allround play, it's mainly central midfield area, he plays too deep to be classed as a 2nd striker.

Sure he gets in the box on attacks and has a knack of being in the right positions at the right time, so has a free role to do that, but this license to do that does not make him a SS.

When Spurs have the ball he is always at the top end of the pitch, playing as a second striker and sometimes he's right up top with Kane. He might retreat to the middle of the pitch when he doesn't have the ball but that doesn't make him a midfielder.

 

[M Bison]

Nah I thought he had enormous potential even before we got him and feel like if he leaves because of this dumb rotation with Rashford thing then he'll go to one of the top teams like Barca and turn into a world class player there. Potential wise he's up there with Mbappe, Dembele and Jesus for me, and there's plenty of people who feel like that about him too (not just United fans). It's constant questions from opposing fans of why he isn't playing more despite every game having highlight worthy moments, and it's going to keep being asked until he's an automatic starter like he should be. Also compare it to that City side. Any attacking player would score and assist more for Pep then they do for Mourinho, given similar playing time. There's very little doubt about that for most people I'd say. Sterling for example this season is at 11 goals already, but he isn't a patch on Martial talent wise and in terms of goalscoring IMO. Hell he has just 1 goal less then Lukaku. It's because of the system he's in. Mourinho just doesn't get the best out of players like Martial unlike some other managers. He wants him to be capable of putting in all the defensive work and play further back and all that, when most managers would try to get the most out of his rare mix of talent with his pace, strength, dribbling and finishing. He's got all the raw talent and physicality to become a brilliant player, and it's not like it's a case of him having a shit mentality either like Ravel Morrison who didn't work hard in training or never put in the work to develop.
Or look at Hazard. Mourinho in his second season benched him a lot and tried to get him to play more defensively, work harder from a defensive view point and play further back. Fair enough, it's his style. But that doesn't get the best out of a ridiculously talented attacking player like Hazard.

Anyway, this is the Dele Alli thread, nothing to do with Martial and Mourinho's attacking tactics. Original point was that while Dele Alli is obviously a very good young player, I wouldn't say he is on the elite level potential wise like Dembele, Mbappe, Martial, Asensio or Jesus are (and Martial was easily rated as that after his first season at United, one off season under Mourinho doesn't change that).

Fair do's matey, each is own and all that

 

[Number1]

When Spurs have the ball he is always at the top end of the pitch, playing as a second striker and sometimes he's right up top with Kane. He might retreat to the middle of the pitch when he doesn't have the ball but that doesn't make him a midfielder.

As said he has a free role, no way is he a defined as a second striker though how deep he plays.

 

[El Jefe]

Where's this rubbish that Alli only affects the game when scoring coming from?

He's a very capable dribbler and he's know for getting out of tight spaces often through nifty footwork and nutmegs. Off the ball he works hard as well and regularly wins the ball back. His all round game might be simple but that's what makes him so lethal and effective. For a 21yo who's to say he's done developing his all round game.

I'm also sensing the Muller comparison being used in a condescending manner. A starter and vital player in a CL and World cup winning team

 

[Prodigal7]

As said he has a free role, no way is he a defined as a second striker though how deep he plays.

A free role in the sense I described above is more about covering up weaknesses than exploiting strengths and for me it makes him a de facto second striker in terms of contribution. a midfielder who would prefer to let others play the midfield role(?) (Eriksen) whilst he takes advantage of their quality with his movement.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

Martial may well go on to be a great, but as it stands currently to say Martial is a far better player is laughable. It's embarrassing as fans to read tbh. Alli has had a slow season so far, sure, and Martial has been looking good when playing. His return in the league so far is better than Alli's. But Alli has done it for two seasons in a row, last season was phenomenal and the one before that wasnt half bad with a return of 10 goals and 9 assists. Which for the record was better than De Bruyne and Coutinho.

Sure there are arguments about how Mou sets up to attack but lets just look at the base facts rather than hearsay or 'what ifs' about if Martial was used correctly by Mou or he was in a more offensive formation, or had more game time, or Mars Earth and Venus aligned. The base fact is he hasnt really had that true breakout season for us yet, it may be just around the corner(I hope). But it hasnt arrived yet, will he become better than Alli? Speculation, they are both young so it is hard to tell.

Wilshere when he came on the scene looked like a world beater, seems he liked to go clubbing and live the glitzy lifestyle rather than actually put in the hard yards and grit to work on his game. That and he is made of glass. I dont think anyone would argue that Kane is some kind of amazingly gifted player. If we are talking about just potential Kane can't dribble past a player like Martial, Kane doesnt have Martials pace and footwork. Yet he is the golden boot winner two seasons running and in the mix again for the third season in a row, he is short listed for the Balon Dor. Does this mean Martial is better than Kane because he has more 'potential and talent'?

 

[Zoo]

So poor on West Brom’s goal, his midfield game overall is really mediocre. Very good goal scorer though.

 

[tenpoless]

Fortnite wanker.

 

[breakout67]

How can a player that plays on the same line as the striker be considered a midfielder?

 

[Rado_N]

How can a player that plays on the same line as the striker be considered a midfielder?

When the OP was written he played in midfield.

 

[rm4eva]

If Ronaldo is not leaving this summer, I'd sell Bale, James, Benzema and replace Benzema with Alli.
He would make a perfect partner for Ronaldo and score goals. His style of play reminds me of Thomas Muller: combative, popping up everywhere, shoots well, passes well.

 

[breakout67]

When the OP was written he played in midfield.

I've read quite a few posters still call him one now.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

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[roonster09]

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Don't understand why they compared him to Gerrard and Lampard. They both played in deeper role when they were young players, especially Gerrard who was a DM when he stared his career. Alli is playing as AM/SS for almost all his career.

 

[Santoryo]

Ali is a SECOND STRIKER. Enough of this myth that he's a midfielder putting up numbers better than the likes of Gerrard and Lampard at the same age.

He doesn't even have the tools and skills to be a proper midfielder.

 

[SalfordRed18]

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It's impressive, but when you break it down a bit...


Ali essentially plays as a second striker. Gerrard in particular certainly played a lot deeper for the majority of his career. Lampard perhaps played slightly deeper too, but I'd let off the comparisons with lampard.

You then gotta think, all of Gerrard's goals would have been premier league. Think all of lampard bar maybe 1 or 2 would have been premier league.

Ali has 20+ in either the championship or league one (probably league one I'd imagine but I'd have to check).

So when you think it like that, impressive sure, but not as impressive as they're trying to make out.

 

[automaticflare]

It's impressive, but when you break it down a bit...


Ali essentially plays as a second striker. Gerrard in particular certainly played a lot deeper for the majority of his career. Lampard perhaps played slightly deeper too, but I'd let off the comparisons with lampard.

You then gotta think, all of Gerrard's goals would have been premier league. Think all of lampard bar maybe 1 or 2 would have been premier league.

Ali has 20+ in either the championship or league one (probably league one I'd imagine but I'd have to check).

So when you think it like that, impressive sure, but not as impressive as they're trying to make out.

Agree with most of this.he basically is not a midfielder. That’s not to take away fromWhat he has done so far but he is not a midfielder

 

[Kostur]

'Let's keep pretending that he's not playing as a second striker and maybe people will keep falling for it.'

 

[Aint gota Kalou]

Is he not playing deeper than he has been in previous seasons?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Ali is a SECOND STRIKER. Enough of this myth that he's a midfielder putting up numbers better than the likes of Gerrard and Lampard at the same age.

He doesn't even have the tools and skills to be a proper midfielder.

He isn't a 2nd striker. And anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't watch Spurs play on a frequent basis.

He roams all over the pitch, sometimes deep midfield, sometimes down the flanks, sometimes in the centre, sometimes making runs in behind the oppo defence.

Look at the 1st vs 2nd half heat maps for Alli when we played against Barca:

 

[Pexbo]

He isn't a 2nd striker. And anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't watch Spurs play on a frequent basis.

He roams all over the pitch, sometimes deep midfield, sometimes down the flanks, sometimes in the centre, sometimes making runs in behind the oppo defence.

Look at the 1st vs 2nd half heat maps for Alli when we played against Barca:

So did Rooney when he was a second striker.

He’s not shackled with the positional responsibilities of a midfielder, when he roams over the pitch it’s because he’s looking for attacking opportunities rather than contributing to the team’s hold of the game.

He’s just not a midfielder.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

He isn't a 2nd striker. And anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't watch Spurs play on a frequent basis.

He roams all over the pitch, sometimes deep midfield, sometimes down the flanks, sometimes in the centre, sometimes making runs in behind the oppo defence.

Look at the 1st vs 2nd half heat maps for Alli when we played against Barca:

So did Rooney when he was a second striker.

He’s not shackled with the positional responsibilities of a midfielder, when he roams over the pitch it’s because he’s looking for attacking opportunities rather than contributing to the team’s hold of the game.

He’s just not a midfielder.

All fair comments but to bring it back to the tweet and the direct comparisons; Gerrard later went on to do that very role behind Torres under Benitez too. And a lot of definitions in football players positioning and roles have shifted since Alli and Gerrard/Lampard burst into EPL focus.

 

[DWelbz19]

It's impressive, but when you break it down a bit...


Ali essentially plays as a second striker. Gerrard in particular certainly played a lot deeper for the majority of his career. Lampard perhaps played slightly deeper too, but I'd let off the comparisons with lampard.

You then gotta think, all of Gerrard's goals would have been premier league. Think all of lampard bar maybe 1 or 2 would have been premier league.

Ali has 20+ in either the championship or league one (probably league one I'd imagine but I'd have to check).

So when you think it like that, impressive sure, but not as impressive as they're trying to make out.

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Stats are still great, but yeah, a lot less amazing when you take out those for MK Dons.

 

[Drifter]

People finding anything to devalue him. Great player if he was one of ours we would be raving about him.

 

[balaks]

He has gone under the radar this season but he has quietly been fantastic - he is maturing very nicely and growing in influence whereas the last couple of seasons he flitted in and out of games he is much more involved now. Overall he is becoming a better player. I honestly think he is underrated.

 

[balaks]

Is he not playing deeper than he has been in previous seasons?

He has - he IS a midfielder (an attacking one) and is an improving one. Those who love to play down his stats by claiming he is a second striker - even if that was the case (it isn't) then his stats for a 22 year old are outstanding anyway so it's a pretty poor attempt at down playing his ability.

 

[El-Manos]

People finding anything to devalue him. Great player if he was one of ours we would be raving about him.

Ya I unfortunate agree. Quality player, don’t like admitting it though - thanks to the like of Glaston....

 

[balaks]

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Stats are still great, but yeah, a lot less amazing when you take out those for MK Dons.

A lot more amazing when you remember he was about 17/18 when he played for MK Dons. Show me another 17/18 year old playing in league one with those kind of stats.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

A lot more amazing when you remember he was about 17/18 when he played for MK Dons. Show me another 17/18 year old playing in league one with those kind of stats.

Didn't Sessegnon get tons of goals last season with Fulham?

 

[balaks]

Didn't Sessegnon get tons of goals last season with Fulham?

He did extremely well yeah. Unlike Alli he has completely failed to continue that form into the Premiership (I think he still could become a very good player though). This is why Alli has been incredibly special - he walked into the Premiership like he had been there his entire life and just started performing immediately.