Imagine two years ago someone had told you United would have RVP, Rooney, Di Maria and Mata starting and had 0 shots in target.. They haven't been great but there's clearly something wrong in the system.
Do we have the most overrated collection of attackers in the league?
- Thread starter NessunDorma
- Start date
No. All of them are top players. Our problem is fitting them all in, it just isnt happening because of the system we employ and how we play.
Attackers need to complement each other based on a system, ours seems like a forced attempt to play them all. Also, we're making piss poor use of them as others have also pointed out. Playing Di Maria upfront as he's the only one with any pace, playing Rooney in CM as he's the captain and thus cannot be dropped, playing RVP because well, he is RVP etc.
If we simply played our attackers in their best positions, dropped the ones that don't fit and play a formation that suits them, we'l be fine. We arent doing any of that atm.
Attackers need to complement each other based on a system, ours seems like a forced attempt to play them all. Also, we're making piss poor use of them as others have also pointed out. Playing Di Maria upfront as he's the only one with any pace, playing Rooney in CM as he's the captain and thus cannot be dropped, playing RVP because well, he is RVP etc.
If we simply played our attackers in their best positions, dropped the ones that don't fit and play a formation that suits them, we'l be fine. We arent doing any of that atm.
They aren't actually as good as many like to think, in my opinion.
They're just being poorly used. Right players, wrong formation and tactics.
Mata was sold simply because he didnt fit your system, it had nothing to do with his qualities as a footballer. He isnt an overrated player.
Rooney is a top striker we are playing in midfield.
Lets leave Falcao out of it.
RVP, ageing yes, but he's barely getting a sniff. The same RVP would score plenty if deployed in a team that atleast creates chances.
As I said above, we're just not fitting them into any kind of a system. with the players we have, we should look far more potent in attack.
Yes.
RVP - way below his peak form. Probably 5 or 6 good games this season out of 20.
Falcao - may be recovering from injury but barely any signs of him being a class player so far (cross for RVP's goal against Leicester, decent header against Villa)
Rooney - solid top 4 player
Mata - good finisher (apart from today), barely creates anything
Di Maria - started off on fire but more recently resembles a greedy, out of form, Nani.
RVP - way below his peak form. Probably 5 or 6 good games this season out of 20.
Falcao - may be recovering from injury but barely any signs of him being a class player so far (cross for RVP's goal against Leicester, decent header against Villa)
Rooney - solid top 4 player
Mata - good finisher (apart from today), barely creates anything
Di Maria - started off on fire but more recently resembles a greedy, out of form, Nani.
With the exception of the point on Mata, I agree with all of this.
I blame 352. We'll start playing the best football you've ever seen as soon as we ditch it. You just wait...
We have the most overrated of everything, from coaches to tea-laides.
As much as don't think RVP is the same player who helped us win the league, I also think that RVP from two years ago would struggle in this team. We're just not creating any clear cut chances. We play with no pace, probably because we have no pace bar Di Maria, and he can't really exert his pace if playing as a striker.
So you agreed to a certain extent to my rubbish
, just kidding.I agree with everything you said, I just said that the fluidity pb you mentioned is like a disease that starts at the back because there is no real with the midfield.
Our players are terrible when it comes to giving themselves passing possibilities, too many of them are left isolated by their teammates. It leads to either passes under pressure to players who aren't playing in optimal positions or long balls to our attackers.
We have to make a choice that if we wanna play a possession based football then our off the ball movement needs major adjustments, it's too stupid to give a pass to a wingback and watch him try to get past one or two players without help and hope for a cross from him for our strikers to score.
I believe we have good players but the way we play, the system we use, the lack of confidence generated at the back by the poor passing, all these things make our attacking players feeding on scraps.
Many times today I noticed simple defensive passes that wouldn’t look out of place during the Manchester United v Blackburn game when both teams were happy with a draw (When United won their 19th title in 2011). There was no urgency, no movement, no leadership and no clear direction on or off the ball. Not one player wanted to take a risk, if the perfect ball wasn’t on then the back or sideways pass was the only option the player would take, to me it’s the tactics that are the problem and I find them not only frustrating but as boring as feck to watch.So you agreed to a certain extent to my rubbish
I agree with everything you said, I just said that the fluidity pb you mentioned is like a disease that starts at the back because there is no real with the midfield.
Our players are terrible when it comes to giving themselves passing possibilities, too many of them are left isolated by their teammates. It leads to either passes under pressure to players who aren't playing in optimal positions or long balls to our attackers.
We have to make a choice that if we wanna play a possession based football then our off the ball movement needs major adjustments, it's too stupid to give a pass to a wingback and watch him try to get past one or two players without help and hope for a cross from him for our strikers to score.
I believe we have good players but the way we play, the system we use, the lack of confidence generated at the back by the poor passing, all these things make our attacking players feeding on scraps.
If LVG sticks to 3-5-2 then I have a real doubt that we will qualify for the Champions League, out of the top 6 teams we are in the worst form, maybe not by results but definitely on a performance related basis. Our lack of fluency is worrying, that and our inability to not only score more than one or two goals a game but the lack of chances created due to our defensive tactics from a defensive minded 5-1-2-1-1 formation.
Come on! Leave the tea-ladies out of this!
Isn't this the same thread as "do we play the most boring brand of football..blah blah blah" from the last week or two??
All of these players have performed very well under different coaches. I highly doubt they've suddenly lost their abilities. I watched the Netherlands at the World Cup and see the same issues with us here. It's not as much the players as it is the system in my opinion.
Individually our forwards are all very good players. But right now there doesn't appear to be a formation available to us that can get them all playing well at the same time. By having them all together at the same time I think we sacrifice creativity from midfield as Rooney clearly isn't the player to make the midfield tick. Have to what what his best position actually is because I don't think LvG sees him as his best striker.
Mata sort of floats around, makes nice turns, picks nice sideways passes but I don't think he influences games like he did at Chelsea. He And RVP and Falcao simply aren't playing well. Whether that's a dip in form or a sign of actually decline, I just don't know.
It wouldn't surprise me if two of those five weren't United players next season. Out of all of those players Rooney is the safest because he's the captain, but his lack of settled position is an indicator, IMO, that all isn't right with the set up at United
Mata sort of floats around, makes nice turns, picks nice sideways passes but I don't think he influences games like he did at Chelsea. He And RVP and Falcao simply aren't playing well. Whether that's a dip in form or a sign of actually decline, I just don't know.
It wouldn't surprise me if two of those five weren't United players next season. Out of all of those players Rooney is the safest because he's the captain, but his lack of settled position is an indicator, IMO, that all isn't right with the set up at United
Definitely not overrated, i don't think anyone rates the likes of RVP,Falcao or Mata higher than they are except us, RVP and Falcao are both passed it and Mata is usually nowhere to be found in important games.
I think the problem with our attack is we are just throwing different players in and hoping that one of them uses their technique to score a goal. I mean i see no reason why Mata would start and Herrera would be on the bench, especially when we have Rooney. All the players who perfectly executed the diamond formation against QPR were fit today, yet the Philosophical one opted to experiment with Di Maria upfront and stick to the dreaded 3-5-2 or 5-3-2
We need to focus on a 3 attacking players in order for us to maximise their potentials,the likes of Di Maria ,Herrera etc need to be showcase their individual talents like Ronaldo in 07/08 and RVP in 12/13 in order for our attack to flourish, its all looking a bit congested over there, our attack needs breathing space.
We also need an Efficient CENTRE FORWARD in the summer, not an over-priced question mark striker who used to be world class, but a CF in his prime who can rack up 20+ a season, Rooney (who hasn't played at CF for up to 3 games his season) is our highest goal scorer which says a lot about our attack.
I think the problem with our attack is we are just throwing different players in and hoping that one of them uses their technique to score a goal. I mean i see no reason why Mata would start and Herrera would be on the bench, especially when we have Rooney. All the players who perfectly executed the diamond formation against QPR were fit today, yet the Philosophical one opted to experiment with Di Maria upfront and stick to the dreaded 3-5-2 or 5-3-2
We need to focus on a 3 attacking players in order for us to maximise their potentials,the likes of Di Maria ,Herrera etc need to be showcase their individual talents like Ronaldo in 07/08 and RVP in 12/13 in order for our attack to flourish, its all looking a bit congested over there, our attack needs breathing space.
We also need an Efficient CENTRE FORWARD in the summer, not an over-priced question mark striker who used to be world class, but a CF in his prime who can rack up 20+ a season, Rooney (who hasn't played at CF for up to 3 games his season) is our highest goal scorer which says a lot about our attack.
Don't think they're overrated. I mean, these players have shown year in year out that they can perform at the highest level. I just think there's no balance to our play, at times.
They are a little bit overrated except Rooney and most importantly they are not supposed to play for the same type of teams, in order to use them we have to compromise which is stupid. That's why I wanted to sell RVP to the Juve and obviously not purchase Falcao.
They might not be at their peak anymore but they get awful service. Mostly down to poor tactics and no creativity. If that's down to our training regime I don't know.
The fact here is very few teams play two upfront let alone two uptop, another striker in midfield and a No.10 who is really just another support striker. Even when we play proper midfielders we are always sending them too far forward far too early in moves leaving Blind/Carrick isolated with very few options. We need to put out the most balanced side not the most individually gifted side or the one with the biggest names in it. If it was up to me I'd put Rooney/Van Persie/Falcao head to head and play the best of the trio as a lone striker in a 4-3-2-1. Feck the bruised egos we can't afford to placate them at the expense of the team. For me Rooney wins it because he has matched RVP's tally despite being moved around like a fecking mower. If we get more balanced then the performances and goals will follow. I'd play;
---------Back Four---------
-----Carrick----Blind-------
-Valencia--Herrera--ADM---
------------Rooney---------
And make the rest fight their way in.
---------Back Four---------
-----Carrick----Blind-------
-Valencia--Herrera--ADM---
------------Rooney---------
And make the rest fight their way in.
Knee jerk.....def no
Because at this time he's the only credible answer to the Cafe requirement for pace up top.
I don't even look at Falcao as a world class player now which would of been unthinkable 2 years ago. His injury looks to have took a lot out of him. I probably think the same about Van Persie also.
Precisely. And let me add, we had three fecking defenders on the bench today but no room for Januzaj or Falcao. Madness.
And you are probably right.
There is two major issues.. system and personnel.
The System
Under LVG, 3-5-2 features most games and just as I expected, it is a horrid formation to watch.. nothing like the 3-4-3 you see for Chile. It is tumescent, predictable, overly defensive and it does not allow for the following things:
4-2-3-1 (away) /4-4-2 (diamond) at home with the current set of players we have, these are the best formations available to us.
Personnel
No matter which way I try to re-arrange this set of players.. fundamental problems remain..
Ideally, if we wanted to see this team play some attractive football and be the most exciting team in the prem again.. we need signings, quality signings in the above positions. Suarez, Kovacic.. players of that ilk would really add some dynamism to this side.
The System
Under LVG, 3-5-2 features most games and just as I expected, it is a horrid formation to watch.. nothing like the 3-4-3 you see for Chile. It is tumescent, predictable, overly defensive and it does not allow for the following things:
- effortless possession in the opponents half (it is so difficult to make good angles to keep the ball in attacking positions, we find it easy to rack up good possession stats through inane ball retention amongst our back 5 and DDG/Carrick but I don't see our attacking players circulating the ball, barely any interplay involving RVP, Rooney, Di Maria, Mata.. they seem starved of the ball.
- trickery out wide - how many times did we see Shaw and Valencia as our sole players out wide... responsible for being our main source of creativity. Now tell me as a full back and winger, are you going to be scared to be defending against a Ronaldo/Giggs or Shaw and Valencia.... wingplay is non-existent at the moment. All these lads do is run in straight lines, go back make a simple pass or drill it into the first defender when attempting a cross. Diabolical at the moment.
4-2-3-1 (away) /4-4-2 (diamond) at home with the current set of players we have, these are the best formations available to us.
Rafael Smalling Rojo Blind
Carrick
Herrera Rooney
Di Maria
Januzaj Falcao
Jones Smalling Rojo Shaw
Carrick
Rooney Herrera
Di Maria Falcao Januzaj
Carrick
Herrera Rooney
Di Maria
Januzaj Falcao
Jones Smalling Rojo Shaw
Carrick
Rooney Herrera
Di Maria Falcao Januzaj
Personnel
No matter which way I try to re-arrange this set of players.. fundamental problems remain..
- None of our strikers can beat a man... they have no penetration, ability to beat a man.. bring a crowd to its feet through creating something out of nothing on a consistent basis. All of them are past their peak, Rooney, Falcao, RVP.. all of them suffer from the same illness, they're just not upto the standards one expects from a Diego Costa/ Luis Suarez/ S. Aguero/Sturridge ... this is a fundamental problem and it affects the rest of the sides ability to play a fluid type of football. Old school number 9 football.. that is how we look at the moment, in the 90's it wouldn't be such an issue but in the modern game, our play looks terribly outdated under a succession of managers.
- Lack of reliable right-back - doesn't need explaining
- none of our wingers are a proper goal threat/produce consistently good end product... on paper Januzaj/Di Maria looks decent but neither one has convinced from wide positions, they look so predictable and devoid of quality. Maybe given an extended run this can change but at the moment... they're not exactly making a case for a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with traditional wide players.
- world class dynamic N.10 playmaker... Chelsea have willian, Hazard, Oscar, Fabregas.. any one of them can get on the ball and change the tempo and direction of the game. Arsenal have Sanchez, City have Silva... most top sides have someone in the hole who can get on the ball and make shit happen, change the tempo of the game. Di Maria can sort of do this for us in his favoured position but he is a very hit and miss player in possession, likes of Sanchez, Hazard, Silva, Messi.. they can get on the ball and just change the pace quickly and have the pace/dribbling/passing/decision making ability to turn a game on its head... our best playmakers are Rooney/Mata.. in my opinion both of them haven't been bad per se but I just don't think they're top quality. They lack dynamism, they're quite easy to force backwards and they lack that spark to really put defences on the back foot.
- world class centre midfielder... we really needed Herrera to come in and dictate that midfield. This hasn't happened and after a brilliant start he just doesn't look the same player. Either we give him the confidence he needs or we go out there and buy a top class midfield general in the mould of a young Xavi/Schweinsteiger. This team needs someone in the middle of the park who can get on it, knit the team together, make passes, score goals and yet still be tactically astute. He needs to be energetic and get the team playing... at the moment our football is so ponderous because likes of Rooney and Mata.. get on the ball, pass it back but don't make that extra effort to make angles and get back on it. It is not their fault.. that instinct can only come from a natural midfielder, as a number 10.. you're used to just being lazy once you've released the ball backwards. You don't really get involved in the space by the centre circle. No matter how hard you train Mata and Rooney, they'll never be Xavi/Scholes.. they're not centre mids.
Ideally, if we wanted to see this team play some attractive football and be the most exciting team in the prem again.. we need signings, quality signings in the above positions. Suarez, Kovacic.. players of that ilk would really add some dynamism to this side.
Were shite. we have a big collection of names, yet rooney is the only one who you would say has been good and reasonably consistent this season.
I just hope LVG drops Rooney for 1-2 games and uses Mata and Herrera in the team instead. Our captain has been poor last few games and Its ridiculous that he is undroppable just because he is our captain.
Nope, Van gaal's perception of the 352 is overrated. Not only does it choke our forward play, he's found a way to completely kill any hope of attacking options by changing the formation from a 3412 to a 3322, completely destroying the balance in midfield and has Di Maria playing with his back to goal ffs.
He sold Mata because he was stacked in that position and desperately needed a striker and didn't have money to spend "legally". Willian was a new boy and Oscar is both younger and more versatile. Since Mata was sold, Oscar hasn't been all that like he was before.
This forum is really making for some difficult reading in these past few days.
Yep.
Induvidualy there is a lot of talent there, but they don't really compliment each other very well at all. They all, to a man, want to play centrally.
Too many cooks spoil a broth.
Ultimately for it to work someone with a very high profile name is going to have to miss out.
Two from Falcao, RVP, Rooney and Mata would not be starting if we used a more conventional (better) formation. Hell even rotating it every week so that one week we start Mata and RVP, and the next we start Rooney and Falcao would produce better results than what we're currently seeing.
Ultimately for it to work someone with a very high profile name is going to have to miss out.
Two from Falcao, RVP, Rooney and Mata would not be starting if we used a more conventional (better) formation. Hell even rotating it every week so that one week we start Mata and RVP, and the next we start Rooney and Falcao would produce better results than what we're currently seeing.
Actually you are wrong with this...
Guardiola was playing a 3-5-2 this season whenever he could. The 7-1 against Roma had this formation. The only reason why he played again differently were injuries.
Neuer
Benatia - Boateng - Alaba
Alonso
Robben - Lahm - Götze - Bernat
Müller - Lewandowski
Bayern even was playing a 3-5-2 prior to the World Cup in the Cup win against Dortmund with Robben and Müller playing the strikers and a Boateng-Martinez-Dante backline.
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It's usually still a 3-4-2-1 with Guardiola and Alaba was constantly pushing up into midfield and even attacking midfield in that game. The same was at Barca where Messi despite being a striker was spending just as much time in midfield as he was spending up front. With Guardiola the formation is never played the way it looks on paper. A bit stunned a Bayern fan hasn't realized this yet.
But it's not only the amount of midfielders that differ while you guys press very heavily we usually sit deep pretending we are the underdog waiting for the counter attack through a long ball out of defense, how many time has Pep done that?
Of course Guardiola's methods aren't the be all end all of football but it shows a clear difference in how Guardiola plays with 3 at the back, which is essentially a very modern version, and how LvG plays with three at the back. I mean let's be honest we are playing 5-2-1-2 more or less and if your wingbacks don't do their job properly and non of your CBs is willing to push forward and direct play a bit we are in for a bad day.
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They only recive dirty balls, if Blackett, Jones, Smalling... have to create football from the back for the strikers, it's not their job
This.
Play mata and rooney deep and di Maria upfront and it's hardly surprising that you get shit football
I maintain we'd be better with a diamond in midfield and four at the back - it would allow Mata, Di Maria, Rooney and RVP/Falcao to play in their best positions.
That said I'm not a football manager.
That said I'm not a football manager.
They're all great players, but they're not being utilized properly. Di Maria for example cannot play the role that Robben played for Netherlands at WC because he's not as good finishing, and his creativity gets wasted there.
Imagine if Chelsea played Diego Costa in midfield, Matic as a CAM and Hazard up front in a 3-5-2 system. They'd all be wasted, too.
Imagine if Chelsea played Diego Costa in midfield, Matic as a CAM and Hazard up front in a 3-5-2 system. They'd all be wasted, too.