Does it matter how we criticise footballers on this forum?

[Annihilate Now!]

With this Dele Ali stuff, it made me wonder how much the criticism and "abuse" we throw at players matters?

I'm not saying we need a root and branch review of the forum or anything, nor calling anyone out (I couldn't anyway as I've given tons of stick to our players over the year) but, as this is a public forum that anyone could read - including the players if they so wish (not that they would but I digress) what kind of criticism is valid? When does it go too far? - And on top of that, what about more public facing media, like the press or TalkSport etc, is there a different threshold for them?

I think if a player plays a shit game of football there is no issue in calling that out, but then what about calling out mental attributes? Is calling someone lazy or a coward (again things I've labelled at Sancho in the recent past) acceptable, when in reality we have no idea what is going on or what their mentality is?

Again, not trying to rewrite the rules of the forum - just curious to what people think, as it's making me reasses what sort of criticisms are fair to label at players going forward.

 

[Member 125288]

Criticism is fine; they are professional footballers and all athletes performing at the highest level and on the biggest stages in all sports have to accept that they will come under intense scrutiny. If they don't like it they can always avoid social media and mainstream news like I do (zero SM accounts, don't care for any of it).

Abuse is obviously a different matter, but the threshold should probably be whether or not it crosses the line into criminality (e.g. racism, sexism) or not. I don't see an issue with calling players out on their attitudes either, even if there is an underlying issue that is not common knowledge. People should not be immune from criticism simply because it might hurt their feelings.

 

[r3idy]

With this Dele Ali stuff, it made me wonder how much the criticism and "abuse" we throw at players matters?

I'm not saying we need a root and branch review of the forum or anything, nor calling anyone out (I couldn't anyway as I've given tons of stick to our players over the year) but, as this is a public forum that anyone could read - including the players if they so wish (not that they would but I digress) what kind of criticism is valid? When does it go too far? - And on top of that, what about more public facing media, like the press or TalkSport etc, is there a different threshold for them?

I think if a player plays a shit game of football there is no issue in calling that out, but then what about calling out mental attributes? Is calling someone lazy or a coward (again things I've labelled at Sancho in the recent past) acceptable, when in reality we have no idea what is going on or what their mentality is?

Again, not trying to rewrite the rules of the forum - just curious to what people think, as it's making me reasses what sort of criticisms are fair to label at players going forward.

The thing is we will never know. We often laud our heroes of yesteryear and compare this generation to them. E.g Robbo, Paul McGrath, Kevin Moran etc We think that the heavy drinking culture of 3-4 days a week was the manly, football thing to do. Could these players have been better if they avoided the drink, I dont know. I personally dont think many players go out and play to be either lazy or cowardly but we will never know how it must grind on players and how they cope with it.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yes. I think it’s fine to criticise a player and say they’ve been rubbish, i think it crosses a line when it becomes personal/if that critique is a constant.

 

[Giggsy13]

The Alli situation should provide some perspective, but it won’t. Lingard got abused regularly until we found out there were some family dynamics behind the scenes that were having an impact. It is also well reported that Sancho has had personal issues behind the scenes yet he gets abused mercilessly by our own supporters.

For one I think the media is largely to blame. They sensationalize everything and in the case of Alli, had acquired info thru leaks at the club about his treatment. Alli was almost forced to give that interview to control the narrative. It seems ethics or lack thereof from the media in the UK is a serious problem. They help fuel the public’s over the top view and negativity about footballers.

 

[RedorDead21]

I think when a player drops off a cliff at a young age we assume it’s caused by too much money impacting their desire for the game. I think we all need to have a word with ourselves and perhaps consider the reality being completely different as this interview tells so plainly. The clubs are well versed now to support and they do but we just see a player given ample opportunities to perform and not grasping the nettle. Could be a watershed moment for fans to accept players are just humans with lots of cash. Merson had an Indian summer career wise after personal issues and hopefully Ali gets well enough to do the same.

 

[OL29]

It definitely goes way beyond constructive and valid criticism. There’s a massive personal element to a lot of the criticism that goes way too far. It’s not exclusive to this forum or fanbase but it doesn’t sit right personally.

 

[Grande]

Critique is a necessary part of society. A commonly made flaw of thinking though, is that we can know the causes of an action when looking at an action. People who are adamant they know why something happen that they can’t fully know, should expect to be criticized for that (myself highly included). Purporting to know people’s internal motives even more so. All the people claiming to be able to ‘see’ Martial’s or Sancho’s mental attitude based on body ‘language’ interpretation - I’m talking to you! (And yes, I’ve done it myself.)

The point about mental troubles isn’t that we can know which player has them, or that we can excuse shitty deeds or bad football with them. It’s that we can’t know who has these troubles, just like we can’t know why Rashford so often flung his arms wide after a badattempt at a dribble two seasons back. It’s the claiming to know that does the damage.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I think with all ‘celebrities’, it’s really, really important to remember that we know very little about many of the issues we hold opinions on regarding them.

News stories are very often not reliable, and pretty much always laced with either a pro or anti leaning.

In a ‘global village’ way, we’re basically just stupid villagers scurrying around gossiping about things we hear second hand about the rich folk in the village. We (myself included) spend our days talking about people we don’t know and will never even fecking meet and often we direct the subdued rage and sadness of this fact at the people in the spotlight - just as we direct our glee and excitement of being alive at them also.

I think the key thing in lots of discussions to remember is that all these people are real, multi faceted human beings with fragilities and flaws and good points and bad points.

The best thing for us as a society and our own well being (and that of celebrities) is to try and avoid binary thinking on issues / people that we know basically feck all about.

 

[horsechoker]

Some people take it too far and it becomes vitriolic. Certain posters have dehumanised their despised footballers and probably hate them more than people who have actually wrong them.

Maybe at times it can be out of order when mocking them, something I do myself, but I think most of us aren't doing it with the intention of hurting said player.

Criticise the performance not the player

 

[Champ]

Football fans seem to think they have a good given right to verbally abuse any player/manager they like.

It's embarrassing and uncalled for whether at the game or in the pub afterwards or on a forum.

It still baffles me the scorn and petty hatred the likes of McT, Maguire and lately Sancho get on this forum, it's not even criticism at times it's just downright bile and hatred spewed from people who couldn't hold a candle to their footballing abilities.

 

[MUFC OK]

Not if you are in the majority.

 

[Damien]

I remember the endless years of Shaw being called overweight and comments about Sancho's shape from one training photo only for him to look like this days later. Its tiring and I don't think there's any need for some of the vitriol being spouted.

 

[bosnian_red]

People go way overboard. Going to personal insults, insulting a players character because of how well they kick a ball or how hard they work defensively, how frequently they get injured, etc. Calling players cowards, calling them clowns for liking music or dressing a certain way or wanting to dance, commenting about their weight (when they might be perfectly fit for their body type). None of this is ok.

Saying a player played poorly today is fine. Saying they have a shit work rate is fine. Saying they aren't good enough for the club/league is fine. Hell even questioning if they have the mental toughness to play at this level is fine, so long as you don't abuse them. Criticism is not personal attacks. It's just criticism about what they bring on a football pitch and should never involve personal attacks. Players have to be able to deal with criticism. That's normal. They shouldn't have to deal with personal attacks.

Match threads though are pretty much YouTube comments level of garbage, so those should be ignored. Everything else I think should be split into personal attacks (not ok) and criticisms about what they bring to the pitch.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I would say that this forum is still a civil place to have a discussion. Mainstream social media, particularly Twitter, on the other hand is a cesspit. People have made careers out of abusing players and normalizing personal negativity being thrown around at players in the name of memes and 'speaking the truth'.

Think of Maguire and how his life would've been had he been a player in the 90s or early 2000s. He would've been criticized, no doubt. But would he be a constant meme like he is right now. People ignore that he's achieved what a million others couldn't and use his name as if its an insult. And Twitter broadcasts it to millions.

We, as a generation, are test subjects of the social media experiments and the results of this experiment is leading to people of all ages having more mental health problems than ever before. Yes, more people are also coming out and speaking about this topic. But an offhand insult thrown at the television set is now being thrown into the internet which collectively is only meant to hurt individuals. In some years, the world will realize what social media has done to human interactions and by then, it will probably be too late.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With this Dele Ali stuff, it made me wonder how much the criticism and "abuse" we throw at players matters?

I'm not saying we need a root and branch review of the forum or anything, nor calling anyone out (I couldn't anyway as I've given tons of stick to our players over the year) but, as this is a public forum that anyone could read - including the players if they so wish (not that they would but I digress) what kind of criticism is valid? When does it go too far? - And on top of that, what about more public facing media, like the press or TalkSport etc, is there a different threshold for them?

I think if a player plays a shit game of football there is no issue in calling that out, but then what about calling out mental attributes? Is calling someone lazy or a coward (again things I've labelled at Sancho in the recent past) acceptable, when in reality we have no idea what is going on or what their mentality is?

Again, not trying to rewrite the rules of the forum - just curious to what people think, as it's making me reasses what sort of criticisms are fair to label at players going forward.

Good idea for a thread! That thread had me thinking along similar lines. We have no clue what shit any footballer is going through at home, so does this mean any and all criticism is unfair?

I concluded that no, there’s nothing wrong with criticising what we see on the pitch. Because that’s criticising a performance, rather than an individual. Insult the post, not the poster, and all that. I even think words like “cowardly”, “stupid” or “lazy” are fine in this context. Because we all know that applies to how they play football. If I call a player lazy you can assume I mean he isn’t tracking runs, or competing for high balls, not that I think his bedroom is messy. Likewise, a footballing coward isn’t someone who’s scared of spiders and a stupid footballer is someone who is constantly making poor choices on the ball, not struggling with long division.

Seeing as none of us have a fecking clue what any of these footballers are like as people I think it’s fairly obvious that all the criticism they get is based purely on the way they play football.

 

[Trigg]

It matters to me personally. Especially as I’ve got older and more understanding of everyone’s struggles no matter their walk of life.

A little empathy and understanding can go a long way in all situations. Not just in here.

 

[Strelok]

Yes I think. But it's simply impossible to define what's acceptable or not let alone monitoring it. So we either ban it totally or simply let it be.

Personally imo if we totally ban it this place would be much less fun and make life of a poster so hard. I mean it's hard enough for us to not directly insult each other and have to find ways to without getting banned now imagine if we have to do that with the players too ...

 

[AndySmith1990]

I see all criticism of a performance as fair game. It's part of having a job in the public spotlight. They reap the financial rewards from that and must accept the public criticism that comes with it. Obviously it goes too far when people make it personal and not about football. No one should be receiving vile abuse on social media no matter how badly they play

 

[hobbers]

Aside from criticism of performances or work rate or teamwork etc

Some players have shitty personalities and do objectively shitty things on and off the pitch. Should they be out of bounds?

 

[horsechoker]

@golden_blunder makes Lindelöf cry

 

[golden_blunder]

@golden_blunder makes Lindelöf cry

The other way round, he makes me sad

 

[bosnian_red]

Aside from criticism of performances or work rate or teamwork etc

Some players have shitty personalities and do objectively shitty things on and off the pitch. Should they be out of bounds?

Depends. If it's a legal case, then out of bounds because of weird UK laws. If it's "they like being flashy" or dancing or whatever, then what's the point in criticising something entirely pointless? Yet many on here do.

Calling players cnuts for trying to cheat on the pitch or injure players regularly is fair game IMO. Calling them cnuts for being rapists or abusers is fair game. Calling them cowards or lazy for getting lots of injuries (Martial, Pogba, Jones) or losses of form/quiet performances (Sancho) is not ok IMO, as we have no idea what's going on.

 

[TheGame]

Nothing wrong with criticising a player's form or performance but unfortunately many on here have to add their personal insults in because somehow it makes them feel better in their sad pathetic lives. This is not exempting players who do wrong things outside of football where that can be talked about but the majority of the cases should be on football.

 

[SimonB3]

If you would'nt say it to their face, don't say it online.

 

[Andersonson]

Social media can ruin players, personally i dont understand why they are on there. Its an area for abuse. I see posters in here too just calling our own players dogshit, makes you wonder what they write on twitter. Todays players are a lot younger than me and social media is everything to many young people, sadly. They live their lives on certain platforms. Players today are to close with the fanbases of every club, the distance is way to short for abuse

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

Yes, but it's across the Internet, hardly just on this forum.

A player's lack of quality is treated as a moral failing of their character, and support of that player is treated as treacherous boot licking. It can be pathetic to be honest, it's just a game.

The other thing is the inability to let that criticism go, ever. It can genuinely seem that posters here enjoy a win less if a player they don't rate was the match winner. Years after players are gone, their every move is still litigated over and over. Paul Pogba can't hurt you anymore like. Dean Henderson is an example. Someone who will likely live out an average career of a lower table keeper, maybe get 5 or 6 caps, he's a footnote in the grand scheme of things, but there will be people online relishing every single mistake he makes and mocking him, forever, because of a fairly narky interview.

 

[Gavinb33]

There is a clear agenda with some posters, I mean I log onto the Mount thread somedays and it's still the same shite post after post by the same posters saying the same things, I do get it's a forum and discourse is fair game for discussion but the same issues just raised and worded in a different manner is why I tend to stick to the general forum

 

[Strelok]

I see all criticism of a performance as fair game. It's part of having a job in the public spotlight. They reap the financial rewards from that and must accept the public criticism that comes with it

I'd disagree with this.

We complain about famous people got privileges and want them to be treated as normal people. But at the same time we also ask them to be treated differently simply because they're famous. It's a bit double standard imo. Surely we could do pretty much nothing about criticism but that doesn't make it fair or right by default imo.

 

[Borninthe80ts]

I always think the way we choose to communicate says a lot about ourselves as well as the subject matter we are discussing. Sometimes we can forget the actual meanings and thus the implications and impact it can have on others. Mental health and perspective is a theme which I’ve previously brought up in the past in relation to player performances and expectations. The level of judgement and then vitriol in passing opinions can go way overboard in my opinion.

In this age of instant communication and reactionary mindset it’s easy as some have suggested to act in ways we wouldn’t face to face. Football is an emotional sport but I always say treat others as you’d want to be treated yourself.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I think it matters most to judge it in the spirit of how it impacts the community. As in, are you being obnoxious, spitting your harsh opinion for no particular reason, or are you being at least somewhat social and writing in a way that somebody could either find interesting, or at the very least, amusing.

The other way round, he makes me sad

Thankfully in the cosmic order of things your misery is balanced out by the jouissance he brings to others

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Criticism is fine but very often on here it does get personal. Sometimes there's this implication that poor performances are driven by personal or moral failures.

 

[USREDEVIL]

It matters. Hyperbolic comments, insults, and the like are for cretons. Analyze performance but be reasonable about it. Too many keyboard warriors these days with no morality.

 

[TheGame]

It matters. Hyperbolic comments, insults, and the like are for cretons. Analyze performance but be reasonable about it. Too many keyboard warriors these days with no morality.

Exactly this.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think it's pretty obvious when people cross lines - issue is social media simply doesn't care because controversy and traffic is money to them, it is like a tar pit for the bottom feeders of society.

 

[kouroux]

It matters tbh, as long as it's kept within football, I'm okay with it. Psychoanalysis of players lives outside of football is a big no-no.

 

[kouroux]

Criticism is fine but very often on here it does get personal. Sometimes there's this implication that poor performances are driven by personal or moral failures.

Or a player being injury prone is his fault because he isn't the best pro he could be off the pitch. Some statements don't leave any room for probability, it's all 100% certainty

 

[WeePat]

I think it's pretty obvious when people cross lines - issue is social media simply doesn't care because controversy and traffic is money to them, it is like a tar pit for the bottom feeders of society.

There are are so many people who have built themselves huge platforms on social media on the back of being abusive, hateful and downright vile. The amount of times I’ve seen someone say some utterly vile shit about player only to respond to being called out with ‘ caught a few bites’ and then you check their account they have like 15-20K followers most of whom are probably young children and everything they post is shared hundreds of times.

Its no wonder then that footballers DMs are full of the most vile shit you can imagine after a bad game. It’s horrible.

 

[tomaldinho1]

There are are so many people who have built themselves huge platforms on social media on the back of being abusive, hateful and downright vile. The amount of times I’ve seen someone say some utterly vile shit about player only to respond to being called out with ‘ caught a few bites’ and then you check their account they have like 15-20K followers most of whom are probably young children and everything they post is shared hundreds of times.

Its no wonder then that footballers DMs are full of the most vile shit you can imagine after a bad game. It’s horrible.

Yeah it's terrible, the caf is literally my only social media presence - binned off the rest years ago and can't recommend it enough

 

[FujiVice]

I dont think there's a sport or form of entertainment that is worse than football than this. Its the biggest sport in the world, so by its nature there's going to be rivalry and dislike. But it just seems to get worse and worse as time goes on. The abuse you see our own players get is frightening. Not "he played shite, I hope he's sold" type. That's basically opinion. I mean there's accounts on social media dedicated to hating certain players, in the most vile way possible. You hope footballers have a good mentality just to get through a season, but you're basically asking them to be robots.