Does The Netherlands have a fan/hooliganism problem?

The Mitcher said:
It has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with lack of policing and crackdowns in continental europe where ultras and hooligans have always been embedded within these clubs, and it's not always about politics.
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Nah, you’re completely wrong. It’s been studied extensively and a rise in right wing rhetoric coupled with economic failure is always the perfect storm for antisocial group behaviour, which hooliganism is almost the ultimate example of.

It’s why we see this rise all across Europe - including increased pitch invasions in UK.

Lower policing doesn’t help but it’s not the cause in any way shape or form.

Apologies if you happen to be a fan of right wing politics / rhetoric, but that’s the truth and it’s well established.

As an aside (kind of), Ultras are nearly always entrenched in politics in some way and very often far right politics.
 
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The first wave of Groningian refugees, who have undertaken the perilous journey to Germany, in oder to escape the violence at home, has arrived in Munich:

 
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RaddyRed said:
As such a tall nation I'm surprised it's taken them this long to assert their violence on the world.
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The Dutch empire would like to have a word(although apparently they were midgets back then so maybe not).
 
There is a pretty violent protest culture in the Netherlands more generally right now. (Yes, probably primarily on the right side of the political spectrum, where Dutch hooligans generally also sit.) There have also been (very) violent protests around Covid and nitrogen restrictions. I think that's relevant context here, but yes, there is a rise in hooliganism in Dutch football - or certainly in its visibility and impact.

I don't remember who asked it, but yes, fans can be banned from stadium grounds due to previous behaviour. But police put very little effort into the enforcement of these bans, so they are nowhere near as effective as they could be. More generally, the introduction and enforcement of rules in stadiums (e.g., fans can still bring beer into the stands) has been lacking.

It's a big mess really. Structural change is needed but I don't see it coming.
 
Peelhead said:
It's because the long arm of the law is also there offsetting it.

On a serious note, it's not the Netherlands imo, it's Europe-wide and the problem is that of right wing extremism.

I go to Hungary a lot and it's quite apparent there but it's noticeable in a number of places, north and south of Europe.
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You just can't reduce hooliganism to right wing extremism, when there are factions of these ultras groups who are left-wing.

It's more about poor policing and giving ultras too much freedom to do what they want, so they don't care anymore about the law.
 
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Rhyme Animal said:
Nah, you’re completely wrong. It’s been studied extensively and a rise in right wing rhetoric coupled with economic failure is always the perfect storm for antisocial group behaviour, which hooliganism is almost the ultimate example of.

It’s why we see this rise all across Europe - including increased pitch invasions in UK.

Lower policing doesn’t help but it’s not the cause in any way shape or form.

Apologies if you happen to be a fan of right wing politics / rhetoric, but that’s the truth and it’s well established.

As an aside (kind of), Ultras are nearly always entrenched in politics in some way and very often far right politics.
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Lowing police makes ultras do whatever they want, you can't summarize that whoever throws something at players/refeeres it's because of politics.

And Europe has always had pitch invasions, and UK now is the least of the worries when it comes to actual hooliganism...
But brits will never get ride of the hooliganism stereotype, no matter what they do, even if there are way more hooligan issues in France,Netherlands, Belgium now than in England.
 
Belgian and Dutch football has had problems with hooligans for decades now, nothing new. The number of incidents seems much bigger now because it is more widely reported. There is also the problem outside the stadium, it wouldn’t be the first time chairs, tables and bottles would be flying around in bars. But I am 100% these shenanigans also happen in the UK pubs during and after matches.

Also it is important to know that in Holland matches are cancelled when there is one cup of beer thrown onto the pitch since a couple of weeks. So naturally this means games get cancelled each weekend.
So for example yesterday I saw Sevilla fans throw all kinds of objects at a Juve player trying to take a corner, this would be enough for the ref to stop the game and go inside.

Also what happened yesterday after the game (AZ-Hammers) was apparently just half the story, West Ham fans had been causing trouble in the city during the day before kick off, though i can’t confirm this.
 
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FrankFoot said:
You just can't reduce hooliganism to right wing extremism, when there are factions of these ultras groups who are left-wing.

It's more about poor policing and giving ultras too much freedom to do what they want, so they don't care anymore about the law.
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Maybe but I just call it as I see it and my girlfriend (middle eastern) has felt very much threatened in Budapest when games are on and we've been nowhere near the stadia. There's a culture of hostility there, it's almost evident in things like their Holocaust memorial (I'm not Jewish either and it just seems 'off').
 
Righteous Steps said:
I'm sorry but :lol:
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I'd call cancelling a match over a smoke bomb soft, but assaulting referees crosses a line and cancellation is the only answer. Top flight football needs to set an example in that regard, because it's ten times worse in amateur competitions, where players have little to lose.
 
Games gone soft

I remember in the 70s there would be acid, hammers, chains, small children thrown at the players and refs and they didn't cry once.
 
horsechoker said:
Games gone soft

I remember in the 70s there would be acid, hammers, chains, small children thrown at the players and refs and they didn't cry once.
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Your funniest post to date on the caf.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Nah, you’re completely wrong. It’s been studied extensively and a rise in right wing rhetoric coupled with economic failure is always the perfect storm for antisocial group behaviour, which hooliganism is almost the ultimate example of.

It’s why we see this rise all across Europe - including increased pitch invasions in UK.

Lower policing doesn’t help but it’s not the cause in any way shape or form.

Apologies if you happen to be a fan of right wing politics / rhetoric, but that’s the truth and it’s well established.

As an aside (kind of), Ultras are nearly always entrenched in politics in some way and very often far right politics.
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If it's been studied where's your studies? Bear in mind I was a former steward and it was nothing but violence for the sake of violence or football tribalism every time this stuff happened.
 
tentan said:
I thought Dutch fans were the most well behaved
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Fans of the national team, sure. Can't remember when there was last any kind of incident. But for club football: absolutely not.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Nah, you’re completely wrong. It’s been studied extensively and a rise in right wing rhetoric coupled with economic failure is always the perfect storm for antisocial group behaviour, which hooliganism is almost the ultimate example of.

It’s why we see this rise all across Europe - including increased pitch invasions in UK.

Lower policing doesn’t help but it’s not the cause in any way shape or form.

Apologies if you happen to be a fan of right wing politics / rhetoric, but that’s the truth and it’s well established.

As an aside (kind of), Ultras are nearly always entrenched in politics in some way and very often far right politics.
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So its not a bunch of feck wits needing the jail for actions outside the stadium before the game started then?. So they are right wing, unemployed or zero hour contracts probably covid and climate change deniers to boot, thats good to know. I might be ,wrong so i will apologies too, but the endemic use of the Colombian happy powder in the younger team may just be fueling it.
 
glasgow 21 said:
So its not a bunch of feck wits needing the jail for actions outside the stadium before the game started then?. So they are right wing, unemployed or zero hour contracts probably covid and climate change deniers to boot, thats good to know. I might be ,wrong so i will apologies too, but the endemic use of the Colombian happy powder in the younger team may just be fueling it.
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For sure, think you're right there as well on the powder. Financially times are hard around Europe from Scotland to Sicilia so political coalitions stand less chance of success imo and we get more instability. The gf got me a nice coat as well from stone island which I don't fancy wearing!

Ahh the good old days, I remember when we went to maine road and they must have thought we were a bit short of money because they were throwing 2 pence pieces at us!
 
Peelhead said:
Maybe but I just call it as I see it and my girlfriend (middle eastern) has felt very much threatened in Budapest when games are on and we've been nowhere near the stadia. There's a culture of hostility there, it's almost evident in things like their Holocaust memorial (I'm not Jewish either and it just seems 'off').
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It’s undeniable that there are certain countries where right wing politics and strong ultra groups mix. Ferencvaros in Hungary have always been linked to right wing politics, whilst also being one of the most right wing countries in Europe.

I would say most ultras in Europe probably have sections of right wing supporters in their groups but don’t really have this as their message. You’re unlikely to hear racist or right wing politics being chanted at a game.

This isn’t true for all ultras, Germany is the obvious example, but it’s a far more progressive country and probably more of an outlier than the norm.
 
This must be embarrassing for the Dutch government. I hope they take the appropriate measures. Football shouldn't be about this.
 
Let‘s not pretend this is a new issue: we‘ve had hooligans for decades destroying public property like trains and waiting for the other teams bus, to throw shit at it. The problem is, this is deemed normal.

Stop the fecking train in the middle of nowhere and arrest them.

Don‘t allow them to wait for the opponent‘s teambus: clear the area, throw anyone trying to break through in detention.

Make them do community service for a year or face jail time.

Just two examples. If you commit enough police force to ending this problem, they‘ll stop behaving like hooligans because there will be grave consequences.

Stopping games is not gonna cut it.
 
Judas said:
Pardon my ignorance are they simply rioting because they’re a bit shit at the moment or is there something deeper going on?
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unhappy that the club hired ten hag.
 
The problem is that the country doesn't do rules, just guidelines. When there's no perceived threat of punishment, shit like this continues to happen
 
Eric_the_Red99 said:
The state of the keyboard warriors replying to that first tweet. Apparently the secret to footballing success is fans causing property damage. That’s clearly where we’ve been going wrong for 10 years.
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You probably won't get owners to part ways with their asset (assuming it's still profitable) with such behavior, but I wouldn't be surprised if it actually did create some real pressure at a club like Ajax.

Looking at it from a distance it seems like the rules are half-assed. "Zero tolerance, except we'll continue the game later on". Is anyone surprised that this doesn't serve as a massive deterrent? If they want drastic changes, they have to be prepared for some tough decisions and conflicts with the fans.
 
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You can’t blame the Dutch fans for their passion - they just want to win.
They looooove goooooold! :D
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Eric_the_Red99 said:
The state of the keyboard warriors replying to that first tweet. Apparently the secret to footballing success is fans causing property damage. That’s clearly where we’ve been going wrong for 10 years.
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So strange. So so strange. These are adults with jobs, presumably to afford all the travelling they must do. Where are their heads during the week? Very sad.
 
They also seem to have some issues with police, what the feck has happened yesterday after AZ Alkmaar - Legia Warsaw game is quite unbelievable and truly a disgrace for local police. Two players (including captain) spent night in the arrest, chairman assaulted by policemen.



 
Red Star One said:
They also seem to have some issues with police, what the feck has happened yesterday after AZ Alkmaar - Legia Warsaw game is quite unbelievable and truly a disgrace for local police. Two players (including captain) spent night in the arrest, chairman assaulted by policemen.



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Typical they leave out the part Legia hooligans first assaulting riot cops, stealing their batons and pepperspray leaving one cop unconscious who had to go to the ER with a severe concussion and a broken arm. Seems like a textbook example of FAFO.
 
Rapsel said:
Typical they leave out the part Legia hooligans first assaulting riot cops, stealing their batons and pepperspray leaving one cop unconscious who had to go to the ER with a severe concussion and a broken arm. Seems like a textbook example of FAFO.
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This shit happens all the time, I’m rather shocked that police response was to go after the players and club chairman rather than deal with the idiotic fans, it’s a bad look and to see team captain handcuffed for feck nothing is plain ridiculous
 
Red Star One said:
They also seem to have some issues with police, what the feck has happened yesterday after AZ Alkmaar - Legia Warsaw game is quite unbelievable and truly a disgrace for local police. Two players (including captain) spent night in the arrest, chairman assaulted by policemen.



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Now the truth. The players arrested are charged with GBH. They attacked a security staffer who ended up unconscious and with a broken elbow, currently he’s hospitalized. The players then went on to kick a locked door down to get to their bus.
You don’t get arrested in Holland without suspicion of breaking the law and the police are definitely not to blame, far from it.
 
Rams said:
Now the truth. The players arrested are charged with GBH. They attacked a security staffer who ended up unconscious and with a broken elbow, currently he’s hospitalized. The players then went on to kick a locked door down to get to their bus.
You don’t get arrested in Holland without suspicion of breaking the law and the police are definitely not to blame, far from it.
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Footballers in stadiums don't generally attack security staff for no reason, also they very rarely if ever kick locked doors down just to get to their bus!??

Something more afoot here, why was a door locked blocking their path to the bus? Why was the bus leaving hampered? Why were the Legia players hot with batons? Why did the Legia president get assaulted by police?
 
Red Star One said:
This shit happens all the time, I’m rather shocked that police response was to go after the players and club chairman rather than deal with the idiotic fans, it’s a bad look and to see team captain handcuffed for feck nothing is plain ridiculous
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Not in the Netherlands it doesn't. You got fans fighting riot police all the time in Poland...?!

For the players: according to Dutch Teletekst, Legia players and staff were asked to wait inside the stadium for a bit because of leaving fans (a logistics issue I guess), but they disagreed. Violence was used against AZ staff and that led to the player arrests.

Let's see what comes out over the next few days, but the Dutch report sounds more reliable to me so far.
 
Cheimoon said:
Not in the Netherlands it doesn't. You got fans fighting riot police all the time in Poland...?!
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Are you serious? This whole thread is about a rise of issue with hooligans in the Netherlands and there has been multiple issues of local fans clashing with police in the last years - googling Netherlands hooligans police clash is already good enough, so I spare myself linking this stuff. And tbh I believe it's a bigger issue in the Netherlands than in Poland right now.

How often do you really see players arrested? All I was saying that hooligan stuff and arrests happen, it's part of the game even if we try to eradicate it. To go after players and club staff feels like a low blow and nothing but a cowardice (which in all honesty I generally expect from policemen all around the world)
 
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