Eric Bailly - English players were favoured

[tjb]

Absolutely.

But Ole probably did have an idea about creating a core at United consisting of British (and preferably local) players. Why? Because it's pretty obvious who Ole's managerial role model is. And that kind of core was - undoubtedly - a central feature of the highly successful teams he (Ole) witnessed first-hand as a player and (later) coach.

It's not a silly idea in itself.

You build a foundation of players you can rely on - and who are happy to remain at the club/will not be tempted to move. British players - and even better, local lads - are obvious choices in this model.

In theory, if you buy Maguire at a record fee and make him your captain, you have a rock at the heart of the team you can rely on for years. Sort of what Fergie did with Rio.

The obvious problem is that Maguire simply is nowhere near as good as Rio, and - as such - you should abandon the model until a player of the right, undoubted quality is available. But the model itself isn't insane or unsound (it has been proven to work in the past - and not just for Fergie).

Fergie didn't actually build that model. We had good young players in our academy that came through around the same time. Fergie would not have brought Savage through or the likes of what we have done. In terms of transfers, Rooney and Rio were the only two high profile British players he signed ( Keane is Irish)

 

[Zen86]

Mourinho supposedly wanted maguire the year before, for cheaper and the club refused. Why would they insist on paying through the nose for him a year later if they didn't have to spend 80m?

Obviously because Ole stormed into Ed’s office, bitch slapped him and demanded Maguire there and then.

This is Woodward we’re talking about.

 

[DWelbz19]

He’s obviously referring to Ole and Maguire, particularly him starting Maguire against Leicester last season with question marks over his fitness, only for Maguire to go and subsequently embarrass himself and the team.

A lot of reports that Bailly and other players were unhappy with that decision.

I remember that too. Maguire was already in poor form, got injured, and instantly came back into the side and pulled a stinker. If I recall correctly one or two journalists report that Bailly actively made a point to Ole about that in the dressing room.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

They were but staying fit for two games in a row might’ve helped his cause.

 

[Skills]

People obsess over the idea of having a big squad with multiple players for each position. Frankly, I don't think most manager's have the skillset to manage a big squad the way Guardiola does and Fergie did.

Most manager's would be much better off keeping a relatively small and compact squad, and using youth players to fill in the gaps. Have players who can play multiple positions as your squad players and then fill the gaps with your youth players.

 

[Rolaholic]

Ironically enough, Bailly actually missed less games due to injury than the likes of Shaw and Lindelof since 2020.

Shaw in particular missed more than double the amount of matches through injury

 

[Red00012]

Well he’s right AWB , Shaw and Maguire were favourites of OGS. Less than 12 months have passed and 3 of them are not regulars anymore.
The problem was I don’t think the understudies were much better at the time

 

[stevoc]

Fergie didn't actually build that model. We had good young players in our academy that came through around the same time. Fergie would not have brought Savage through or the likes of what we have done. In terms of transfers, Rooney and Rio were the only two high profile British players he signed ( Keane is Irish)

Ferguson has said (I think in one of his books, maybe both) that he preferred to build his teams around an English/British/Irish core. Yes academy players were mostly English but he also signed the likes of Bruce, Pallister, Anderson, Dublin, May, Cole, Sheringham, Rio, Rooney, Smith, Carrick, Hargreaves, Owen, Smalling, Jones, Young, Zaha. There may be others and those are just English players.

You only have to look at the amount of British/Irish players that were in SAF's later squads vs the last 5-10 years.

 

[sugar_kane]

Fergie didn't actually build that model. We had good young players in our academy that came through around the same time. Fergie would not have brought Savage through or the likes of what we have done. In terms of transfers, Rooney and Rio were the only two high profile British players he signed ( Keane is Irish)

His final United first team had a lot of English players in - Young, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Carrick, Rooney, Welbeck, Ferdinand. Giggs and Evans if we’re expanding to British players.

It’s not really fair to say Ole invented the idea of a British core to the United first team, Fergie always had it.

 

[stevoc]

Henderson, Rashford, AWB and Shaw all these English players lost their spot to foreigners. Shaw most likely through injuries.

Yep his point is nonsense.

He personally was kept out of the team by Varane and Lindelof last season.

He's moaning about Maguire but Harry joined 3 years after he did. In 3 years before Maguires arrival he couldn't make himself first choice mostly under the guy who signed him.

 

[::sonny::]

It was evident

if Maguire was Italian he would have been already sold

 

[tjb]

Ferguson has said (I think in one of his books, maybe both) that he preferred to build his teams around an English/British/Irish core. Yes academy players were mostly English but he also signed the likes of Bruce, Pallister, Anderson, Dublin, May, Cole, Sheringham, Rio, Rooney, Smith, Carrick, Hargreaves, Owen, Smalling, Jones, Young, Zaha. There may be others and those are just English players.

You only have to look at the amount of British/Irish players that were in SAF's later squads vs the last 5-10 years.

Most of which was at a time when foreign signings were quite rare.....I'm also talking about spending big money like we did with Maguire. Having Smalling, Jones, Hargreaves, Own, Young and Zaha sign as depth is one thing, signing Maguire and trying to get Longstaff in is another

 

[tjb]

His final United first team had a lot of English players in - Young, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Carrick, Rooney, Welbeck, Ferdinand. Giggs and Evans if we’re expanding to British players.

It’s not really fair to say Ole invented the idea of a British core to the United first team, Fergie always had it.

I think that was a massive mistake. Think he was trying to copy the Barca line of Pedro, Busquets and their Spanish contingents. I'm not sure Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Evans or Welbeck would ever have started significantly if Fergie stayed on. However, Fergie seemingly giving his mark of approval, particular toward Jones and Smalling really hurt the club for many years imo. Neither were good enough to start and Fergie talking them up (like he had done with O'shea and Brown in the past) convinced people they had far more potential than they actually had.

 

[VanDeBank]

Your core assumption is ole 'signed maguire' and couldn't admit his 'mistake in sign maguire'. It's a laughable idea as ole didn't sign maguire

He had a veto on signings. He effectively did sign them.
If you break a record fee it becomes your flagship/signature signing. The one you will be remembered for.. Ole was content with mediocrity and incapable of making hard decisions. That's why he made so many false promises, didnt replace subpar players/coaches, didnt slam the table to demand players, etc.

Ole was a coward. He felt it was too embarrassing to admit he shouldn't have made Maguire captain or bought him for that matter.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fergie didn't actually build that model. We had good young players in our academy that came through around the same time. Fergie would not have brought Savage through or the likes of what we have done. In terms of transfers, Rooney and Rio were the only two high profile British players he signed ( Keane is Irish)

Yes, of course it was partly fortuitous in the sense that a generation of academy products emerged that included multiple genuine top class players. But Fergie very much decided to go with those players (he moved on several established players who were still in their prime, or close to it, in order to make way for his "fledglings").

Yes, Keane is obviously Irish - but that's much of a muchness in terms of, call it what you will, football culture.

There are several other players who fit the "British core" idea too, over the years - like Andy Cole and Michael Carrick, not least. Or for that matter Yorke (who fits the bill regardless of his actual nationality). And then you can add multiple failed (to various degrees) attempts at the same thing, like Ashley Young, Alan Smith and Phil Jones (who was, at the time, pretty much the poster boy for this approach).

ETA Plus, there were several others who Fergie clearly wanted - but didn't get. Gazza and Shearer, not least. Of course, you could say that Fergie simply targeted very good players (and didn't give a feck where they came from), but that would be slightly disingenuous in my opinion: he wanted a core of players who were in it for the long haul (and who - obviously - were good enough and had the right attitude, that goes without saying): realistically, it's more likely that such a player is local to some extent, "local" ranging from Salford to the rest of the UK (and Ireland too).

That obviously doesn't mean Fergie was reluctant to sign non-British/Irish players - we know that he wasn't, and that many of his key signings were in fact not in that category.

It's more a question of a) preferring academy products over imports if (and only if) the former are actually good enough and b) trying to sign outstanding players from within the English/Scottish pyramid if possible.

 

[The midfield general]

He is right Olly did not have a clue and reverted back to text,Play the tried and trusted but at the end of the day this did not get us anywhere.Also where have all the academy graduates gone ,the future of the club, all these good players coming through,they mostly been released or gone out on loan.feck me , you me and everyone else were waiting for the superstar breakthrough but alas it did not arrive.

 

[Rightnr]

Yep Rangnick never gave him a chance.

Pathetic and transparent

 

[Isotope]

When his job was on the line, I don't think Ole gave a shit of player's nationality. He put whoever he thought can do better job.

 

[Gasolin]

Did me calling Telles world class genuinely need white text?

My bad, I was too literal on this one.

 

[Trequarista10]

People obsess over the idea of having a big squad with multiple players for each position. Frankly, I don't think most manager's have the skillset to manage a big squad the way Guardiola does and Fergie did.

Most manager's would be much better off keeping a relatively small and compact squad, and using youth players to fill in the gaps. Have players who can play multiple positions as your squad players and then fill the gaps with your youth players.

Guardiola has one of the smallest squads in the league. They do have about 17 top quality players mind, whereas most other clubs have 20, 25 or 30 genuine first team players but not 17 of top quality. City attempting to do as you describe in your 2nd paragraph atm.

I agree with your premise though, think numerous clubs ourselves included have been too stocked. Much better off directing funds into a stronger core of 16-18 or so, with 6-7 youngsters providing depth. Even after a lot of departures and loans out our squad is too big, and it was even worse previously. You can't keep players in their prime years happy playing bit part roles.

Of our current squad in terms of balance I'd be looking at replacing Shaw, AWB, Maguire and Lindelof with two younger players who could cover different positions across defence. If they are good enough they will establish themselves as a specialist in one role eventually. If not, move them on whilst their stock is still high.

 

[tenpoless]

if he doesnt like it he shuld just leave are country

You sound like a patriotic American dad who is having a midlife crisis posting his first ever comment on youtube

He has a point, but we also needed players who could go on a run without getting injured.

21/22	Ankle Injury	13 days	4
20/21	Corona virus	20 days	5
20/21	Knock	8 days	2
20/21	Knock	10 days	2
20/21	Knock	8 days	2
20/21	Muscle Injury	44 days	9
19/20	Neck Injury	5 days	1
19/20	Knee Surgery	169 days	32
18/19	Knee Injury	78 days	2
18/19	Head Injury	34 days	7
18/19	Knock	5 days	1
18/19	Back Injury	4 days	1
18/19	Knock	9 days	1
17/18	Ankle Injury	100 days	21
17/18	Knock	21 days	5

Corona Virus is not an injury.

 

[Revaulx]

True.

If you look at the English/British players Ole either did buy (or sanctioned) and the ones he allegedly targeted (for instance Longstaff) AND the prices involved for those players...it just doesn't look good at all.

The quality is nowhere near the required level. I mean - Longstaff would have (presumably) been intended as his Keane (or at least Carrick). And...yeah.

Longstaff's asking price was over 60 mill, if I remember correctly. Imagine if that had actually happened.

Which is why the “British core” concept got canned as swiftly as it had emerged. It was only really a thing in Summer 2019; Sancho being the solitary latecomer, and he’s hardly the archetypal British Yeoman type.

I might be completely wrong, but I rather suspect it was something that was initially being pushed by Mike Phelan.

 

[Adnan]

I think the issue Bailly was having was that there wasn't much accountability for poor performances.

I'm of a ethnic background myself being born and raised in the UK. And I have no issue with having a British core to the team. But I think the difference between what Ole/Phelan did and what Fergie did, was that in Fergie's teams there was accountability for poor performances. Solskjaer kept playing players even when they were playing poor. And when you allow poor performing players to continue without accountability, then you're creating a bad culture at the club.

And if we talk about Maguire, you don't sign a CB for a world record sum who has clear flaws when it comes to mobility/agility. Solskjaer ended up signing him for a huge sum and it seems dropping him wasn't a option. Fergie was very strong minded and thus being ruthless was his forte. Solskjaer didn't have those traits imo.

All the top clubs in the world are run by people from within their own country. Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Liverpool etc. But what's important is to have the best head coach and the best recruiters. We have potentially one of the best head coach's in the game in ten Hag and our head of recruitment is South American Jose Mayorga. And we will find out about Jose Mayorga's credentials in a head of scouting capacity in the forthcoming transfer windows.

Anyone here who supports Northern Ireland will have heard of Barry Hunter. Hunter is the chief scout at Liverpool and along with Dave Fallows, they've both revamped the scouting department at the club. It wasn't the DoF who did that but the two men who are heading the recruitment department. So this why I say to people to try and look beyond the DoF. Because without Fallows and Hunter, Edwards wouldn't be able to function in his role as the Sporting director.

 

[Red Dreams]

This is the sort of thing you can literally spin in either direction depending on whether you like or dislike the player in question. Doesn't really say much in either case.

As a captain he offered to play when not fit... surely if he's thinking about himself and not the team, he'd rather sit out and let the other players take the blame for defeat? I don't like Maguire but I could just as easily say him stepping up in an injury crisis to play through the pain barrier (not for the first time, by all accounts) was a sign of leadership and putting the team first, and part of the reason he was made captain.

You are saying he was playing through pain. That was not the case.
He was not match fit. He had a single day kick about. And that showed in how he gave the ball away for their goal.
So my comment stands.

 

[Newtonius]

People who are not born in the UK, but who live and work in the UK, are fully entitled to criticise any aspect of living here, without the bigoted cry of "why dont you just leave the country then?"

Its funny isn't it how this only ever applies to western countries, it seems we are completely fine with sacrificing our own culture on the altar of political correctness. If a foreigner was ever in China, India, Japan etc and started demeaning their culture and/or country they would be beaten down quicker than they could scream racist and rightly so its completely against human nature to favour the outsider, for the same reason nobody is out there feeding their own starving neighbour ahead of their family its illogical.

Was obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes that Shaw, Rashford, AWB, Maguire etc would start regardless of how shit they were anyway so he isnt wrong its one of the biggest improvements with ETH.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

You are saying he was playing through pain. That was not the case.
He was not match fit. He had a single day kick about. And that showed in how he gave the ball away for their goal.
So my comment stands.

No, I'm saying your comment can be twisted either way depending on whether one likes Maguire or not. Playing through pain* or not match fit, the point is the same.

If you don't like the guy, he played despite not being fit because he doesn't care about the team and is only out for himself. If you want to defend him, he raised his hand and told the manager he wanted to help the team and felt ready to play despite having been out because he knew we were short with both him and Varane out and Bailly not featured all season.

* and the reason I added the (not for the first time) bit was because I knew Maguire has played through injury for us before. He tore his hip in his first season, missed one League Cup game, and was back playing 90 minutes in the league 7 days later.

I'm pretty sure Maguire actually didn't miss a single minute in the league that entire season. And in yet another example of my point about how this same scenario can be twisted to suit anyone's agenda against particular players: Pogba was missing for most of that season with no clear idea of when he'd be back, and loads of people on this place were convinced he was faking or exaggerating his injury and just didn't want to play for us anymore... because he didn't care about the team and was only out for himself

 

[Red Dreams]

No, I'm saying your comment can be twisted either way depending on whether one likes Maguire or not. Playing through pain* or not match fit, the point is the same.

If you don't like the guy, he played despite not being fit because he doesn't care about the team and is only out for himself. If you want to defend him, he raised his hand and told the manager he wanted to help the team and felt ready to play despite having been out because he knew we were short with both him and Varane out and Bailly not featured all season.

* and the reason I added the (not for the first time) bit was because I knew Maguire has played through injury for us before. He tore his hip in his first season, missed one League Cup game, and was back playing 90 minutes in the league 7 days later.

I'm pretty sure Maguire actually didn't miss a single minute in the league that entire season. And in yet another example of my point about how this same scenario can be twisted to suit anyone's agenda against particular players: Pogba was missing for most of that season with no clear idea of when he'd be back, and loads of people on this place were convinced he was faking or exaggerating his injury and just didn't want to play for us anymore... because he didn't care about the team and was only out for himself

Anything that is posted needs to be backed up though.

The Pogba comparison bolded above was simply fact. He said directly and through his agent he needed a change of clubs.
He earned the fans distrust.

 

[roseguy64]

Ole really fecked up with that Leicester game and it was the beginning of the end for him, he lost the dressing room that day I believe.

Bailly can do one with his excuses though, if he was a good enough centre back he would have displaced Lindelof (assuming there was English bias, which I believe is bollocks otherwise Lingard and Henderson would have been starting every week)

The anglophobic element of our fanbase will lap it up though.

All that said - Ole did have a bias towards certain players, undoubtedly, and it was a huge factor in him getting the sack. I don't believe this was based on nationality though.

This. Ole had a bias but it wasn't nationality based. He just trusted certain players more.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Anything that is posted needs to be backed up though.

I agree. Which is why I'm struggling to understand how Maguire telling the manager he was available to face Leicester when he'd just been injured and our other starting CB was also out was an example of him not thinking about the team. And why I'm making the point that I can use the exact same match and instance you're talking about to make the exact opposite of your point.

 

[roseguy64]

He's absolutely right. It got to a point last season were Rashford and Maguire were so bad you just can't do worse than them no matter who you replace them with. I would not say its because of their nationality though. One of Oles problems was that he found his first 11 and whenever they underperformed, his method of getting them back to form was to keep playing them

Ole overplayed Rashford last season? Interesting.

 

[liman]

Not sure why the idea of having many british players in the team is a good idea. There are reasons why England national team hasn't won anything in more than 50 years. In Ole first season, we recruit AWB , Maguire and Dan James , all overpriced low quality British player. The only reason Phil Jones is still here is definitely his nationality and how luke shaw is still here while telles is on loan is also another example.

 

[liman]

He wasn't wrong, we have Maguire as captain here for no reason. In any other proper club they chose captaincy based on Seniority or past achievement so they would have at least command dressing room respect, Maguire has none of those , he wasn't senior at United , he has 0 career medal, the only reason he became captain was simply due to his nationality + price tag. United are run by nepotism, "job for the boys" no wonder we are in mess. By the way , Luke Shaw has been out with injuries more than Bailly , if he wasn't british there is no chance in hell he would still be here.
And guess who went on and did an interview saying he prefers playing for the national team?
Imagine if Bailly ever said something like that, he’d be slaughtered.

It's a basic fundamental of leadership and team dynamics. Once a part of the team feel they aren't going to be given a fair chance no matter what they do, the team will collapse eventually.

Exactly , you must always play players based on merit , if not all the bench player who watched the starting player stinking the place around still being picked week in week out would have thought "what's the point of me training hard if the manager still starting the same players no matter how they perform" ? It ruins the whole team dynamics and destroy motivation, bench player has no reason to train knowing they aren't going to be given a fair chance. Ole really has blood in his hands.

His final United first team had a lot of English players in - Young, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Carrick, Rooney, Welbeck, Ferdinand. Giggs and Evans if we’re expanding to British players.

It’s not really fair to say Ole invented the idea of a British core to the United first team, Fergie always had it.

The old man damage our club far more than i thought. Not only he was the one bringing the glazer in , he was also behind the brexit fc. Look at modern coach such as pep , ask him why he doesn't trust british players much , Foden was the only regular british player who start under him , he didn't even care about developing city youth and guess what? He dominated the EPL because of it.

 

[rimaldo]

You sound like a patriotic American dad who is having a midlife crisis posting his first ever comment on youtube

unlikely. youtube doesn’t work on my computer. whenever i type “you” in my aol internet it wants to take me to “youporn” instead.

Corona Virus is not an injury.

correct. it’s a hoax.

 

[Real Name]

He is right but even if Maguire wasnt favored he still wouldn't get in the team regularly cause he wasnt fit 70 percent of the time. Also after Henderson another player on loan is taking cheap shots at the club. Does this happen in other clubs too or just at United?

 

[Carl]

Not sure why the idea of having many british players in the team is a good idea. There are reasons why England national team hasn't won anything in more than 50 years. In Ole first season, we recruit AWB , Maguire and Dan James , all overpriced low quality British player. The only reason Phil Jones is still here is definitely his nationality and how luke shaw is still here while telles is on loan is also another example.

That you think Telles is better than Shaw completely undermines anything else you have to say. Even if you're no Luke Shaw fan, Telles is absolutely appalling. The worst left back I've seen play for us (talking about senior players).

 

[Real Name]

The old man damage our club far more than i thought. Not only he was the one bringing the glazer in , he was also behind the brexit fc. Look at modern coach such as pep , ask him why he doesn't trust british players much , Foden was the only regular british player who start under him , he didn't even care about developing city youth and guess what? He dominated the EPL because of it.

Are you an United fan? There's so much wrong about this post I dont know where to begin.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Is that a dig at Maguire?

That's the impression I got from reading those comments too

 

[Cassidy]

He is right but even if Maguire wasnt favored he still wouldn't get in the team regularly cause he wasnt fit 70 percent of the time. Also after Henderson another player on loan is taking cheap shots at the club. Does this happen in other clubs too or just at United?

Happpens at clubs where the management has been appalling

 

[Real Name]

Happpens at clubs where the management has been appalling

Yeah, but the management is different now, the manager at least so I'm not sure it's a wise move from the players.

 

[Doracle]

Not Totally true. When Maquire was 30 % fit and Bailly 100 %, Ole picked Maquire

Not because he was English though. He just thought Bailly was that poor.