I am as much ETH out as any other person (still) but really think the criticism is well over the top. Villa away is a one of the toughest fixtures of a season, their home record is incredible and they’ve already beaten City and Arsenal there this year. We are not at a stage where you can reasonably expect us to go away to a very good team and dominate the game, our performance yesterday was on par or even above expectations. Yes, it wasn’t perfect and yes, the mid-game changes (or the lack of) were questionable but end of the day we got away with a result.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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This is exactly it. Even with a first choice midfield we are wide open at times, even straight after scoring there is a Villa player drifting into space in front of our back 4. Mainoo often seemed to be playing 10-15 yards ahead of Casimero, not sure if this is still the single pivot. But teams are able to cut through us, ETH doesnt react when the match turns and shows no tactical initiatives. His subs are always very defensive, loads of CBs at the end sends a message of desperation. McT worked today but plenty of times when it hasnt. Villa are an OK team but not great, top 4 side would have beaten us yesterday.
Problem is, I don't think we'll ever get to that stage under this manager.
It was a very good win, but we'll never be a top side with this manager at the helm. Unless you somehow manage to have 8+ world class players on the field(which is improbable) while ETH is managing them.
Understat has us 12th in xPTs. We've out-performed our xPTs more than any other team in the league. We've also got the highest over-performance in xGA too.
At some point, we're going to start dropping points again unless our performances get much better.
It's a good run of form, but any talk of a revival seems heavily premature for now.
At some point, we're going to start dropping points again unless our performances get much better.
It's a good run of form, but any talk of a revival seems heavily premature for now.
Exactly.
You can say ETH has been unlucky because of Martinez injury, it is very much true. However, the problem I have is it shouldn't be a binary system - you can only play football when Martinez is available, otherwise we play zombie passes around the defensive line to eventually hoof it forward. We play terrible brand of football, there's very little going through midfield and if you play Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno there it isn't an excuse really.
The weight of buildup play and keeping possession is shifted too much to the backline, no surprise we have no control in games.
We were never going for possession based system, and Bruno was made a captain by Ten Hag and he is literally never dropped, so there is very little evidence to support that claim that Mount was bought to phase Bruno out. It is very clear ETH wanted single pivot double #10s system which so far looks very poor.
My thoughts exactly. We are a limited team, both in terms of players and coaching, it's a true refection of our season. But the fact that we beat Villa, and the fact West Ham (8th in the league)were walloped by six at home by a team who are third, tells much about the overall standard and consistency of the mid-table teams, which unfortnately, we are amongst that grouping. We have to be realistic and take such results when they come. We can beat Luton too.
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Said consistently when our injuries got a bit better and most of the first XI were back we’d be able to judge and we’ve been on a winning streak since we’ve had them back.
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
Spot on. We still have no idea why Mount was bought but it seems really to support the single pivot and high press. But we cannot control possession or the shape of matches, and when the press is broken (and its often not effective, we are not in top 6 for high turnovers this season), then our midfield is wide open. This seems to be ETH goal and preferred system, despite its obvious failings.
Said consistently when our injuries got a bit better and most of the first XI were back we’d be able to judge and we’ve been on a winning streak since we’ve had them back.
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
But they aren't playing well because xg says they should have lost.
We aren't playing well though. So this doesn't actually prove your ground breaking theory.Said consistently when our injuries got a bit better and most of the first XI were back we’d be able to judge and we’ve been on a winning streak since we’ve had them back.
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
So 12th for the season so far? With a team that up until 5 or 6 games ago has been subject to game by game changes due to injuries, controversies and poor form? A team that at times on paper player for player has looked worse than any team Ole and Rangnick put out the season before ETH took over? In a league where every team has improved themselves since.
Your saying that we are overperforming by 6 positions under those conditions and selling it as a failure? Seems to me you are basing your analysis of those statistics on a narrative rather than being subjective here.
Said it before and will say it again, we were told this squad needed open heart surgery, instead we overspent on players that the structure above ETH couldn't make there minds up on, that our technical directors couldn't negotiate pricing on or come up with reasonable alternatives, to paper over the cracks without getting rid of the not good enough aspects of the squad, if one is true then the narrative that Ten Hag has had the support he needs above him, that he is underperforming, is a false one.
I am not Ten Hag in or Ten Hag out, what I am is excited for a future in which footballing decisions win out. There are multiple reasons our team has underperformed for years and most of them can come before sack the manager becomes the issue:
Outdated and neglected sporting structure-lack of nutrition and training discipline, poor analytical department, a lack of recruitment direction and decision makers, Carrington left to rot, a lack of elite training ground coaches.
Commercial over football-outdated and hindering contract renewal policies focusing on maintaining club value over rewarding form or offering incentive, preseason tours that are planned around revenue as opposed to optimising getting players ready for the new season (there's a reason we always start slow and have our best runs of form in the second half of a season), signings for clicks over signings that click, over paying for everyone because we worry that a Manchester United target MUST be coveted by every other top club in the world and we have no alternatives because the scouting issues in the football structure are ignored leading to an unreasonable fan base and hostile media/opposition supporters because we spent a billion for a few tin pot trophies while others spent similar or less and are just levels above.
Is Ten Hag good enough for us? I don't think you can give a correct and honest answer to this without agenda until you see things above him change. I can say that he has handled disciplinary issues very well, that without the recommended open heart surgery that Rangnick, the man Ten Hag apparently wrongly refused to listen to, has improved the team in comparison to the season before he joined, that using second and third xi options for a lot of this season we are overperforming on various criteria that these stat heads come up with, doing so against the back drop of controversies, the takeover and a breakdown in sporting structure. He did similar last year without a competent fit striker.
£100m for Antony is criminal, but we should never have been in the position to be so desperate as to pay whatever the hell these clubs want for crucial positions we have needed to strengthen for almost a decade.
I don't entirely buy the narrative that you can't judge ETH yet. He has for sure had a lot of problems. But it was widely reported he wanted a big input/ veto on transfers. Even with a full squad at times we have underwhelmed, we were poor quite a bit of second half of last season and start of this one. Antony would have been criminal at £50m, at £82m its daylight robbery, but the bottom line he is barely good enough for the PL, let alone United. for me this is a major red flag with ETH that he seems to be a terrible judge of players and sticks with them even when they underperform. Not just Antony but even Weghorst last season. We still struggle to see any clear patterns of play and when we do its one of being wide open in midfield.
ETH said when he gets his injured players back, things will improve.
He was right.
His transfers - Hojlund, Casemiro, Martinez - great. Eriksen, Malacia - good. Onana, Mount - still in the balance. Antony - bad. Overall - high success rate.
His development of academy players - top notch. Garnacho and Mainoo look set to be world beaters.
He correctly identified Sancho as useless prick.
Teams is full of desire and fight, there is comradery between players.
My verdict - ETH in.
People saying "fraud", "worst manager we ever had" etc. - embarrassing.
He was right.
His transfers - Hojlund, Casemiro, Martinez - great. Eriksen, Malacia - good. Onana, Mount - still in the balance. Antony - bad. Overall - high success rate.
His development of academy players - top notch. Garnacho and Mainoo look set to be world beaters.
He correctly identified Sancho as useless prick.
Teams is full of desire and fight, there is comradery between players.
My verdict - ETH in.
People saying "fraud", "worst manager we ever had" etc. - embarrassing.
Indeed. The system ETH wants to play doesn't work and never looks likely to. It doesn't play to our strengths and even if we spent two transfer windows getting the "right" players for this system it would still be awful and we would still be winging it against most EPL teams.
The fact that he persists with this system throughout tells me he will ultmately be done here. There is no way the new CEO and DoF gives him 150m+ in the summer to try and polish this.
Who else was going to be captain?, I think I heard Maguire got it because no one wanted it
We don't play with a two tens now, even though Kobbie can play there - I've seen him play well there in the past. When he brings McTominay on Bruno drops deeper and/or moves to the right.
EtH is not stupid, he's pragmatic he gets the players when he can get them - I don't I think he would have let De Gea go if Onana wasn't gettable. I really think he went for mount because he was available.
He has said: The players dictate the way you play.
We tried to play two tens versus wolves, Mount was injured shortly after. The next game Mount was back to a 8 position.
I find it really weird no one sees this, for example the last game vs Villa we practically sat in our half wait for a gap for about 40 seconds in the second half. Just stood still.
Even Onana was stood with the ball not just going long, I think all im saying is - he is buying like he building a high press possession team and we can't play that with Bruno .
####Rant here
That's why I said "I think" and not "it is very clear", because that would indicate that I knew Eth or completed football manager on game +.
Instead I'm an old fat manc writing crap on a forum about a team, I've watched for over 30 years - feck I remember falling off the leaning bars as 7 year old in the Stretford end, couldn't see sh#t - blokes could smoke and drink while watching the football. Now you get funny looks for calling players sh#t
Im just wondering, how was your state of mind under Mourinho, when he had the forwards often play as centre backs?
Everyone and there mum was saying that Ten Hag was brilliant when Overmars started buying him players rather than giving him his own picks, why anybody at the club or this fan base assumed it would be different here I do not know.
I have only ever seen quotes in articles saying Ten Hag demands full transfer power so I can't honestly and subjectively say that was a condition of his hire, I also seem to remember it was a "quote" that came out whenever his ex Ajax players were performing poorly. I know that there has been mention also of a veto, that's perfectly normal in the sporting structure, its not always an outright veto, for example in Ashworths lauded structure its a traffic light system where all involved in squad building from director down to manager have to give the green light or they have discussions, but Klopp, Arteta, Pep will all have a say in at least a positional needs sense and how targets fit that need.
If you are believing press rumour and written quotes why are you not taking into account the article written in December which described a completely different situation? Is it because it doesn't fit the "my god this guy is useless narrative"? In said article there was a situation described in which Ten Hag asked for players that fit certain profiles, that Murtough was going to fill those positions before his arrival, but due to aforementioned issues within the sporting structure Murtough gave Ten Hag a list of players the scouts had looked into and Ten Hag chose the players he knows because ultimately he is not a scout or director of recruitment and knows what he knows? Because that would of course fly in the face of other quotes from other sources that are not as close to the club as Whitwell.
It's interesting you bring up Weghorst because our best form and Rashford being unlocked came after we bought him in. It's also interesting you bringing him up because you unwittingly prove a point I made and possibly betray yourself that you didn't read or take heed of points made regarding how the club is run affecting the club much more than a change of manager will. You see, we signed Weghorst on loan because for almost a decade we have needed a focal point centre forward and for almost a decade we have kicked the can down the road or signed over the hill vanity signings to plug the gap, for almost a decade we have overspent and ended up in a position where our most important squad role has been neglected to a point where we didn't have enough FFP wiggle room or cash in hand to be able to give the manager a player he desperately needed.
The playing style issue I bring you back to my other point regarding the preseason, how our best form for years often comes in the second half, I would also like to add that patterns of play has been a commentator talking point about our squad since Mourinho time, we haven't changed much of our supporting staff in that time, or made best in class appointments where needed to improve those patterns, we have let our training ground rot and to top it off for 20 odd game weeks we haven't had a consistent xi to give them that familiarity.
Right now, winning is all that matters. There is no value to focusing on XP or how we play. Between now and end of season qualifying for top 5 is all that matters.
ETH will be sacked by INEOs if there are no signs of improvement or potential. If we win most our games till end of season and get top 5, then that’s an improvement and it strongly suggests that ETH would have done far better had injuries not ravaged us. That is improvement on the only barometer that matters right now.
The players we wanted back from injury aren’t at full match fitness yet. Our team hasn’t been able to consistently play a starting 11 anytime. And we’ve had no breaks, relentless injuries interrupting any efforts to build some momentum.
I said it before, I’d expect us to be playing better football Come start of March( presuming no more injuries). I was thinking a month of feb where our team has had a proper run of games together, almost like Feb is our pre season.
You also see teams vying for top 4/5 regularly be very inconsistent in the tail end of the season. If we can find consistent results , we can pip spurs or Villa.
Even look at Onana who looks far more settled , its no coincidence that when the team starts to get settled , players play better.
When Mason Maximus Decimus Meridius Mount returns and scores the goal that clinches us a spot in the CL next season
Huge win for him and the team yesterday and might deciding in the top 4 race. I said i wanted him out, but if we actually manage to secure CL football next season i am inclined to give him another year.
We all laughed at Arteta a couple of years ago, and for good reason, they were quite shit and look at them now.
We all laughed at Arteta a couple of years ago, and for good reason, they were quite shit and look at them now.
Huge win yesterday. Massive 3 points and we now have a realistic chance Of top 4. Nothing I saw yesterday to convince me ETH will be here next season. But it’s a massive 3 point’s nonetheless. Lot of rewinding history for some posters mind you which is funny. I just haven’t seen anything from ETH to convince me that he’s a decent manager. But come the summer a new leadership structure will be in place and they can make a relevant decision hopefully with CL footy to look forward too.
If we get top 4, he deserves another year.
If not, sack.
Its that simple.
If not, sack.
Its that simple.
What if we get 5th and the extra CL spot?
Won't know until later in the season.
Currently (if I'm reading correctly), the extra spots are going to Italy and Germany.
I disagree, what if we start playing amazing football between now and the end of the season but results just don't go our way? What if we play absolute dog shit and fluke our way to top 4?
The money matters, but I'm over the idea of being in the CL every season. I'm sick of players who only care about whether they're in the CL or not, and we ain't going to win the thing for many years anyway so who cares if we're in it. Would much rather we got our house in order rather than get hung up on top four.
But they are not playing well. They are better players, so they get better results, but tactically there still seem to be similar issues than before. So criticising EtH for that is still valid.Said consistently when our injuries got a bit better and most of the first XI were back we’d be able to judge and we’ve been on a winning streak since we’ve had them back.
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
Will depend on the results of all teams in Europe and so far looks like a close battle this season. It's not guaranteed that the PL will be one of the best two leagues in Europe and let's not forget, if 5th isn't enough for the PL, that is on Newcastle and United (who performed worst of all English teams in Europe this season). Italy still has 7/7 teams in Europe, Germany 6/7, England and Spain both only 6/8 (listed in the order of the current ranking). Completely crashing out of the group stages hurts.
Said consistently when our injuries got a bit better and most of the first XI were back we’d be able to judge and we’ve been on a winning streak since we’ve had them back.
Of course I’m sure that’s just a complete coincidence that having your best players available is probably the biggest reason you might play well
Yes, but this is the problem (in my opinion). Because there is this almost transactional approach to what a good football team having a good football season looks like. This notion of just 'having your best players available and you will play well..' is not a reality and does not make for a good team. A good team is more than your preferred first XI: A good team is a good squad; clear playing patterns and identity; good coaching and man-management; knowing how to manage the team when the inevitable injuries and suspensions occur; building a strong resilient mentality within the dressing room; good recruitment.
Just saying '...we will be better when we have all our players available..' is both naive and lazy. Rather daft, and certainly unrealistic really. This is my frustration with ETH.. he talks a good game but in my opinion, has this sense of delusion about him. Yesterday he says that Casimero is key to our team getting back to winning ways.. has he been watching Casimero this season? Dreadful at the beginning of the season, and now, following injury, we watch him and is he making things so much better?
ETH needs to really assess how he goes about his work, because he isn't doing well. Look at our Goal difference ffs. Get real man.
When that second and third xi is worse than the season before Ten Hag took over on paper, this argument doesn't really hold weight. He has had money spent on the squad to improve the first xi, for sure, but not the recommended open heart surgery needed to improve the full squad.
I’ve been critical of Ten Hag all season and rightfully so but nah, I’m not going to complain about yesterday or the last 3 games.
We still had 17 shots in that game. It’s a difficult place to go and I’ve seen us barely get out our own half over the years in some of these away games.
We still had 17 shots in that game. It’s a difficult place to go and I’ve seen us barely get out our own half over the years in some of these away games.
ETH has brought in 16 players. Open heart surgery etc etc, but are we doing much better than the likes of Brighton, West Ham, Aston Villa? Spurs? Don't just consider the last three games... I mean over the last season and a half. Are we? And did those clubs perform 'open-heart' surgery?
I just think some are awaiting some panacea-type moment when all things align for ETH. That's not reality. Liverpool have drastically changed their squad and have dealt with significant, long-term injuries to players. That's part of management I'm afraid.
That's it. When we've had such a significant amount of embarrassments served to us in these games, including under this very same manager, to record a win at a top 4 team is a progress - even if the game was not perfect.
I still feel the team is good enough to get top 4 if close to full fitness. I also feel that ETH isn’t the answer even if he achieves that.
Recovering from poor starts only to finish at the minimum of where you expected to finish going into the season is not progress.
The two biggest weak points I can’t ignore is how easy we are to play through and how mediocre we are at passing as a team. We will never be a top side unless we sort this out.
Recovering from poor starts only to finish at the minimum of where you expected to finish going into the season is not progress.
The two biggest weak points I can’t ignore is how easy we are to play through and how mediocre we are at passing as a team. We will never be a top side unless we sort this out.
The entitlement of this post if off the charts, we don't have a right to go to Villa and play them off the park
I think 3 wins on the bounce has fecked with some peoples brains.
You are speaking as if Villa is prime Barca. They won their last trophy almost 20 years ago and they just got promoted back to EPL on 2019. Fans like you are the reason this club dropped its standard. We are fecking United, we should do better than this. The forfeiture of your post is off the charts
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Squad still have many holes in it, too many players just not comfortable enough on the ball and lack composure.
Until we address these issues with better players then we are never going to be putting in great performances on a consistent basis.
Until we address these issues with better players then we are never going to be putting in great performances on a consistent basis.
It's about 80% likely that England will get it.
City are likely to go very close if not all the way in the Champions League, same for Liverpool in the Europa. Villa are favourites for the Conference also.
Arsenal West Ham and Brighton are also probably going to progress relatively far too.
16 players!?!? What the hell you smoking and can I have some?
He has brought in 8 players. If your including loans, they are not permanent fixtures, that's levels below signing a 30 odd year old midfielder because the one we want isn't available or we can't afford them. It's a temporary fix. You wouldn't put a plaster on open heart surgery would you? Wouldn't make a good surgeon. Open heart surgeon was specifically ten players out, ten young hungry players with sell on value in specifically. That's the Red Bull, I mean Rangnick way.
As for the last season and a half, I don't often partake in whatever level of drug your at but I will bite.
Are we doing better than Brighton? The Premier League table would say so. Style of football wise, pretty sure they have fallen off what they were to be fair, but even so they have a footballing structure in place that we are nowhere near in comparison.
West Ham? Absolutely, they are shite the fans have turned. Table would again say so.
Aston Villa? We have recently beaten them Home and Away in the league, are catching up to them as we find form now that our first xi is close to coming back after half a season of playing an inconsistent mess of first second and third xi players.
Spurs? Well they started strong but injuries really show that a headstrong manager with only one way of playing and zero pragmatism costs points. We will most likely catch up to them, but if not fair play to them, I would say that our circumstances have been far worse for 20 plus game weeks.
That's a brief run down but then you get to the actual meat and potatoes of it, in a season and a half can we say we are better positioned, yes. You don't count seasons in halves, the only metric that matters is the position in the end and last season without a recognised permanent striker, a midfielder on life support, but a much better injury to game ratio we finished higher than them all and got a trophy.
You bring up the open heart surgery relating to them. Did anybody at those clubs go on record and state that those clubs needed open heart surgery? Did you watch us under Ole and Rangnick in that final season before Ten Hag took over? We were getting decimated by teams on the level of Watford. We had Pogba we had Ronaldo. Come on, you see those trees? Yeah that's the wood mate.
It's true but it's propped up by 5 short term loans for back goalkeepers.
Dubravka and Butland don't really have any bearing on Ten Hag's performance. It doesn't excuse signings like Antony and maybe Mount.