How do you come to the conclusion he has an easy ride? Howe is a similar position and never questioned by the press, Poch gets it far easier despite doing far worse, our season has been obliterated by injuries to the point it's probably been our most injury plagued season I can remember
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He manages the biggest club in the world. If he wants an easy ride he should set the team up properly, win games or go and manage Newcastle.
I think a lot of it people get wrong, I hear TUS & Talk of the Devils and others assume it's because he's foreign and they prefer Poch (Despite not seeming to point out Poch is foreign), the big issue is I don't think he has much of a relationship with them and recently banned him, they don't get much info out of him on injuries or many areas and they don't like it.
Yeah, I'm not too sure what it is, but I think the consistency is that if they find the manager unfriendly at times to talk to, they turn on him very quickly.
Personally I'd rather our manager gave nothing away to any journalist, Mitten included.
Agree to some extent, we are in a real unprecedented time when it comes to injuries though so can't fully blame him for form but certain decisions like playing Rashford & Bruno when clearly out of form etc but I don't know the wider ramifications of dropping some players as it's clear they have a big say on the morale behind the scenes etc
It's less this but more, what would we want from a manager in position needing to fight for himself? I would like any manager to basically swing back. If he stays quiet he looks submissive, if he points out his players sucks and he has an injury problem then he's giving excuses and alienating players. I'd rather see him swing at the press instead, it's the safest route.
That's essentially what he did, but we have some weird posters who take press conferences as biblical answers - it cracks me up.
You're questioning why a Manchester United themed podcast discusses the United manager in depth and not the current Chelsea manager? Surely the answer is in the title of the podcast?
For what it's worth, I listen to the podcast every week and their opinions are always balanced, I think they're too soft on him sometimes. If you think they're being harsh on him you need to ask yourself why you're so invested in a guy who is clearly doing something wrong from a fairly level persons perspective.
What do you suggest then? Are you not seeing a pattern here? Get a new manager. Play well for him to get into his good books. Then revert to base the following season.
This is the culture here that has propagated through since SAF's retirement. We have to break this chain. Back the manager otherwise these turds are too comfortable in their role.
As did I, and that is categorical bullshit.
I have no problem with him hitting back at the press, it's part of the game and I enjoy it when its clear there's an agenda, but it seems the press are upping the intensity due to players being back fit, our performances not improving, the money spent on players like Antony who are now 4th choice backup and people like Carragher doing an expose on the state of the in game tactics and management.
It all goes away if he just changes his approach and starts winning games well.
I think scrutiny is more apt. He's come to the table with a system and style of play this season that is rife for questioning and hardline detractors. That that system is a complete flop solidifies doubts that have beem there for months. Even if the press wanted at him before, they had to be sure he wasn't ushering in something that could stand up to scrutiny.
By the MNF piece, a lot of questions have been laid bare for the public en masse and many have had the realisation of how poor what we do is placed squarely between their eyes. Basically, even if the guns were pointed at ten Hag prior to that piece and the time in the season it was, after said piece, those guns are not only pointed, they are fully loaded with ammo.
The why now!? Is evident.
But, this is the biggest club in the land and such blatant issues are going to be held to the highest scrutiny this country has to offer, and rightly so.
We've had different players throughout the years and they're won stuff consistently. It's only the last few years we haven't won a trophy with the exception of last season so what you're saying is the players won some stuff and then decided that was enough, we're done now, just the one trophy and now we're all collectively quitting.
Your stance doesn't make any sense because you're immediately assuming that the manager that has been hired is the best manager in the world and is destined to win trophies, expect the players are stopping him from doing it.
I think the MNF analysis was lazy - its disingenuous to claim our manager is actively trying to have a sea's gap between his attack and defence, he's literally not done that in his career ever until the showing this season, where he has a plethora of injuries and squad players ill suited to his squad.
I believe the issue to be the players don't suit the system, rather than his system being some sort of established flop. Maguire & Lindelof fill the back line with a lack of confidence and retreat back, whilst Rashford basically refuses to work.
I said he has had a relatively easy ride. The expectations for Howe aren’t at this moment in time the same as the ones for Manchester United, at the very least Newcastle is not yet at a point where it will or should be as scrutinised as United. Pochettino has not been at Chelsea as long as he’s been here. Ten Hag has broken negative record after negative record and has presided over one of our worst seasons in recent times - and criticism of him hasn’t, imo, matched how calamitous it has been.
That's because you're always on the defensive whenever his name is mentioned. They've rightly questioned things, that's the extent of their criticisms and they all double down on wanting him to succeed. If you listened to them consistently you would know this.
I re-read the first few pages of this thread. 
To suggest he has had an easy ride from the press is extremely disingenuous. I mean, I have never seen Sky do what they did with us when they sent Neville and Carragher to interrogate and grill him after the Brentford loss, two matches into the season. Not once in the past and not once ever since. Actually, I bet ten Hags pop at Carragher was not only referring to the recent analysis, but he also remembers his behaviour trying to be a smart ass with malicious remarks during that interview. I don't think we'll ever see that again from Sky. Actually maybe we will, with our new manager next season if god forbid he doesn't look like he's the new Pep after 2 match days. Maybe they'll bring Keane with them this time.
Last edited:
I agree with your explanation how he wants his system to look like and also with your assesment that the players doesn't suit the system. Knowing that results in the conclusion that a manager has to know that he will have this gaps in his system and going with the players and the system anyway means at least that he's actively accepting this gap and doesn't try to fix it by changing to a system that suits the players better.
No, it's because they don't give balanced opinions. There have been countless examples since the Jose days on this.
Carl Anka for example was a fan of mourinho early doors, then he started trashing him and endorsed Ole by saying "all you need is love", discounting the importance of anything else. Then when things got sour they all started complaining the players have been mollycoddled and dont want to work. It's mostly hindsight with them - except with Ten Hag they gave a fraction of the patience as they did with Ole, due to the obvious bias they have for Manchester talent.
Mitten & Anka specifically is close to players like Rashford and to ex managers like Ole. The former just joined Ole on an India tour and the latter helped write Rashford's book. If you are trying to claim there is no underlying bias in their opinions then you're just being silly. That has absolutely feck all to do with Eric Ten Hag by the way.
Yeah, I disagree with this notion that he's set out the team to leave easy gaps all the time by design.
I don't disagree with MNF's observations that it's happening, but analysis is pointless without the "why". They don't ponder that, they just draw lines and say LOOK AT THIS.
Well, they may not suit our 'progressive' style of play, this one I haven't tried debating because I think ETH has done an appalling job at coming up with a gameplan that suits the team he has. If 90% of your players do not suit the style of play you are trying to have them play then you should come up with a different plan.
I merely pointed out the quality of players was better than Arsenal's as evidenced by them finishing in top 3 in two of the previous three seasons.
Arsenal's squad was really poor. They had Martinelli and Saka emerging but they were both only 18 so obviously they'd take time. Other than that Xhaka, Ceballos were decent, Aubameyang was still all right but Ozil had already faded by then. Their defense was particularly terrible.
They asked the 'why' early on, when it still happens after so long then it's squarely on the managers shoulders for not getting through to his players, if that isn't what he wants. You point to issues with Maguire but he seems to be a first choice for ETH now, so he obviously isn't too disapproving of what he does. And the issue was still present with Martinez, Shaw, and Varane in the back line. There are teams with lesser talent than us that implement a high back line just fine. When your team kicks off a game and looks confused on positioning etc from the get go, you have to be a massive ETH apologist to not ask what he is doing in preparation for these games.
Arsenal had a squad that was much better than back to back 8th and dross performances for 2 years. This is my point. If Arteta can ride through that and get the right players in under a proper structure then there's an argument to say Ten Hag can too. Especially considering he's had one season of underperformance and even that isn't likely to be as terrible as 8th.
We have won 4 trophies in 10 years.
"Won stuff consistently"
And the manager might not be the best in the world, but neither are these players. Nobody can win shit with these.
Is it really? They pointed out a clear problem, and honestly I don't care why it exists. It exists continuously, so the manager's job is to find a solution for this. He doesn't do it (at least not successfully), so that's reason for concern.
It's probably important internally for EtH to know why this happens to find a solution, so I do agree that it's important to go into that to be able to fix it, but it isn't important for a TV show. If they would go into that level of detail, there would be no need to pay EtH for his services, the team could just watch MNF and do what Carragher says there, no need for a manager anymore.
No, I was questioning why the press don't go at those managers, the point about the United podcasts was them trying to insinuate whether it's because ETH is foreign, which as stated I think is the wrong conclusion. I'm not so invested in ETH at all but I am so fixed in on the fact that replacing him will simply bow to the players who aren't performing and give them a fresh start, I'd happily let him go after another year if it meant clearing out some of these players who have underperformed for several managers.
I don't disagree but I do think they aren't taking into the squad availability at all, which has been unprecedented this year. I definitely think he was a bit naeive that our defensive unit can handle 2 attacking midfielders in front of Casemiro, which was never going to work.
so Howe has by all means had a decent season followed by an awful one despite spending a lot of money just like us, nobody expected them to be in their position after how they finished last year but very few questions get asked, I just find it odd is all. I don't think people are being honest enough when it comes to the injuries this year and the lack of availability and the fact we don't have the squad depth and how much we drop off.
Arteta was learning on the job as it was his first manager position. It's absolutely fair to give him time for personal development if you decide to sign him for this job. But that development phase as a manager that Arteta had to have in his first two Arsenal years is what EtH had already before moving to Ajax.
They certainly haven't answered the why. They didnt talk about how Ten Hag has literally never done this and pondered "maybe this isn't what he's telling his players to do, but injuries mean he relies on squad players that simply aren't good enough to execute it".
Maguire is the first choice ahead of Evans and Lindelof - hardly two alternatives capable of a high line. It's happening because Shaw, AWB, Licha and Malacia have effectively been non existent, Casemiro has also missed longer patches and doesn't really have the legs on top.
Ten Hag has a style that yes, demands a lot of physical contribution (by the way this is probably a constant regardless of the manager if we want to compete). However he doesn't have the squad players to perform this style, which leads to a poor execution.
Should Ten Hag take some blame for not being more pragmatic in patches? Yeah sure - specifically in the Champions League. But is he essentially set up to fail with this squad and structure? Also yes.
True but Ten Hag had his own handicaps, specifically walking into a club with 2 clowns in charge not knowing if they had a job the next month, the head scouts being sacked, a ton of bigger pressure from the media and fans and he himself needing time to adapt to the Premier League. Oh, and the mental injuries this year.
Maguire was starting ahead of Varane when Martinez was fit.
ETH has set up this structure, so takes responsibility. Arteta tried the same with a Rice - Havertz - Odegaard trio and they struggled at times with it, despite being a better team than us. He now uses Jorginho more to help provide a base in midfield.
ETH has had most of the squad plus new recruits available that finished 3rd last season. You talk as though he's had no option (remember our Shaw at CB discussion as another example? ETH finally realised how daft it was thankfully), when he has always had options to change the system to suit what's available. And to be honest, I think if we had prime Kante in the middle of the pitch, we would always be susceptible to counters in the kamikaze way he sets up - which is also detrimental to keeping possession of the ball.
They probably had a squad good enough for 6th place or so. They did underachieve in the league (hard to deny that), however they won FA Cup in his first season, got slightly better in his second year (+5 points in the league, improved form in the second half of season, reached Europa League semifinal with some promising performances), considerably better in third year so you could see gradual improvement leading up to their eventual title challenge.
Still, it is very rare that a manager would be given this much time, Arteta is an exception rather than a rule. Also much, much younger and coming with no experience, so much like you would normally give more leeway to an 18-year old player just coming through like Mainoo, you would not have the same patience for a seasoned veteran who has less room for improvement.
If the players do not suit what you wish to do, you dial it back and bide your time until such time as you can get what you want from what you have. You don't just persist, which is where the scrutiny stands up because it is happening over and over to the point where it can be put out there as matter of fact.
By now, a lot of the criticism that comes his way is down to the predictability of what he is doing game in and game out. We shouldn't be able to pre-empt how games will go before they happen; we shouldn't be sure how formulaic what we will see is, but our lack of midfield control and teams running straight through us is endemic and a certainty; that we will be facing 15+ shots no matter who we face, is a certainty. We concede the same cutback goals more often than not. All of these things happen so routinely, the MNF piece becomes legion because, it is us and has been all season long.
Because of that piece being put out, a lot if questions can be put to the manager that people want answers to. It would even be remiss of the press to not pick up and follow on from an open goal paved for them from a fortuitous source. It's the perfect storm as far as they're concerned, but it also gives the fanbase a chance to hear what ten Hag has to say as to why he persists despite it potentially losing him his job.
This wasn't for many PL games at all, and it was happening at a time when Varane was struggling to play in congested fixture matches (it's well noted the man breaks apart if he plays more than a week apart).
It's almost like Arteta has options to actually fix the structure and still be proactive, whereas Ten Hag doesn't?
If Ten Hag tweaked and went coutner, you can bet your bottom dollar that we'd have whingers saying it's Ole ball and we've not progressed. He's in a no win situation.
I'm talking about this season, actually. Not last season. Also Luke Shaw has had many more games where he was standout as a LCB than when he was poor. I'm not sure where that random point came from.
Yeah, if you are going after a 37-year old manager coming into his first job as a head coach, you should expect some bumps along the road. If we went after McKenna/Carrick or even Amorim after ETH fiasco, people will need to be more patient. If we go after an experienced coach, we will be expecting results sooner, naturally.
He has no time. The posters on the forum have a proven record to whinge when they dont like something. Everyone would have just gotten upset again by saying "it's like Ole ball, we're so deep, we aren't attacking as much" etc.
His crazy system has actually yielded alright results of late, and it might yet push us to a CL position.
He won a trophy ad
United have won 10% of the competitions they played in ten years.
Two league cups
Europa
FA Cup
Are you not entertained!
4 trophies x 10 seasons - 40 trophiesWe have won 4 trophies in 10 years.
"Won stuff consistently"
And the manager might not be the best in the world, but neither are these players. Nobody can win shit with these.
United have won 10% of the competitions they played in ten years.
Two league cups
Europa
FA Cup
Are you not entertained!
If you thought they were harsh in doing the piece about the system then you really don't want them deep diving on our injuries and 'bad luck'
The paradox here is funny.
« Ten Hag has no system and tactically clueless »
and at the same time
« his tactical stubbornness is costing us points ».
I think it’s no surprise all our previous managers were playing a variation of a defensive/counter attacking style.
Supporters were crying for more « progressive play » which is what Ten Hag is trying to implement - for better or worse. We simply don’t have the adequate personnel to play fluid football.
Can he do better than he is actually doing ? Obviously. But this was always going to be limited to an extent, even more so when you can’t have a settled back four for half of the season
« Ten Hag has no system and tactically clueless »
and at the same time
« his tactical stubbornness is costing us points ».
I think it’s no surprise all our previous managers were playing a variation of a defensive/counter attacking style.
Supporters were crying for more « progressive play » which is what Ten Hag is trying to implement - for better or worse. We simply don’t have the adequate personnel to play fluid football.
Can he do better than he is actually doing ? Obviously. But this was always going to be limited to an extent, even more so when you can’t have a settled back four for half of the season
The sentiment around Ten Hag was actually that he wasn't that experienced either, he was seen as an up and coming manager that we nabbed at the right time.
Age had feck all to do with it - his experience was limited to the Dutch league and the Bayern B team.
Why not
Arsenal knew when appointing him that Arteta was a young manager learning his trade. They also spent a relative pittance in his first couple of seasons, with a focus on shifting the dross and troublemakers out of the squad. Ten Hag was supposed to be the finished article. An experienced manager (he's older than Guardiola ffs) to come in and turn things around after the Ole experiment failed so horribly. He's been backed with huge funds and has spent them extremely poorly - not only failing to clear out existing dead wood, but buying a bunch more for hundreds of millions. And yes, at a serious club he'd never have been allowed to do that and should never have been here, but it doesn't change the fact that he pushed for Antony. He pushed for Mount. He pushed for Onana. He thought those were the players to take the club back to the very top level.
There's no comparison between the two. Ten Hag isn't going to improve as a manager. He's 54 years old. There's nothing beyond blind faith to suggest that he has the ability to seriously challenge for the top honours.