Yep, he waa doing a total revamp of the club. Unlike ETH who is managing the team and doing transfers.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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Well that could be a reason why eth is kept. We can't magically create a competent manager. There has to be one available for a reasonably long term or else we will be working in circles.
I personally think eth should be sacked but no point wasting money on a new manager if that new manager is going to stagnate us.
He’s exactly the same ball hiding sub mediocre player he was under ole, hes just scored more last minute goals from desperate situations
Hag gave him a run of starts in his default position after one of his doubles and the entire caf was in despair at how shit he was. Unless he’s subbing on in the 70th minute when we’re losing he’s probably even worse than under Ole
Mark Robins called out that the media is talking about MU in a ‚derisory‘ manner. This is certainly the case and I would argue many posters here are guilty of the same.
Facts are, as Robins and Ten Hag say, we can beat anybody (and lose to anyone) and we‘ve beaten every top team in the league under Ten Hag.
The following type comments make me consider a poster a ‚Ten Hag Out Cultist‘:
1 Minimizing Ten Hag‘s accomplishments before MU
2 Not taking into account injury crises (plural)
3 Ten Hag did not improve players
4 We have no discernible style
5 Minimizing last season‘s overaccomplishment
6 Discounting bad seasons by other top managers
The media does not talk like this about Chelsea: they have been a much bigger mess than us, with a new 250+ million midfield.
We have been shite but there are ways to criticize and discuss without seeming like oppo fans who are wumming.
We are now at a point where you get banned for being positive (must be an oppo WUM).
I‘m ETH out at the moment but still have hope things may turn around.
Facts are, as Robins and Ten Hag say, we can beat anybody (and lose to anyone) and we‘ve beaten every top team in the league under Ten Hag.
The following type comments make me consider a poster a ‚Ten Hag Out Cultist‘:
1 Minimizing Ten Hag‘s accomplishments before MU
2 Not taking into account injury crises (plural)
3 Ten Hag did not improve players
4 We have no discernible style
5 Minimizing last season‘s overaccomplishment
6 Discounting bad seasons by other top managers
The media does not talk like this about Chelsea: they have been a much bigger mess than us, with a new 250+ million midfield.
We have been shite but there are ways to criticize and discuss without seeming like oppo fans who are wumming.
We are now at a point where you get banned for being positive (must be an oppo WUM).
I‘m ETH out at the moment but still have hope things may turn around.
His handling of various disciplinary issues has been exemplary, as one example. He's done a great job with various young players too.
Pretending he's done literally nothing well is just childish. Whether it's enough to earn another season is up for debate, I fall on the yes side but can understand those who don't.
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I think Robins is distinctly aware that United can suddenly become good. That and a championship club expecting to just walk all over a premier league club would be insanely arrogant.
I'm happy to give him another season while we bed in the new guys upstairs. The next manager choice will be hugely important and the last thing we need is a rushed choice. Let's work on the next manager succession plan through the next season.
I think the idea of giving him another season because there's no proven, world class, available coach out there, is a scary one. Must be one of the first times I'd have ever heard of a club sticking by a failing manager, that the fans want out, just because there's not a proven top class option. The problem is, where do you draw the line? If there's not another top class manager for the next 5 or 10 years, do we stick by him? Do we waste money on players and just allow them to be managed by a sub par manager?
At some point, you simply have to try something different. I think every sports team in the world does this.
I don’t agree on your opinion about style. Otherwise he could have said “due to injuries we cannot play the style that we want too”. Instead he’s doubled down.
I do agree that there are individuals that he has for sure helped develop.
i just wish he was capable of putting it all together and he hasn’t shown much evidence of that
Bonkers post and exactly the kind of overpaying business this club has been doing for years.
Ah yes succession plans are famously difficult enough to require football clubs to write off an entire season to make one.
Ridiculous. It takes a good coach 2 months to implement a competent style of play.
That's why INEOS would be insane to give hime that chance. If he stays and we continue to perform this way, that would be a black mark on them regardless of how new they are. Much in the same way Arnold and Murtough were treated despite just taking leadership in 2022. There's no benefit in keeping him for us. He's clearly not a tactical wizard. So what's the point??
The only reason some people support him staying is to avoid being United perceived as a sacking club. The irony is that having the structures above him, as well as the change in job, should ensure that performances like his this season are addressed much more rapidly with a dismissal. I don't believe certain fans actually comprehend what's going on here. The manager will now be accountable to the DOF, who will keep a closer eye on him and intervene in squad management affairs. LVG, Ten Haag, and Mourinho will not be allowed to just transfer people out of the club for personal reasons; they must first obtain consent from the DOF. In reducing the role, we're acknowledging that in the modern game, managers can't have that amount of power. This isn't just about reallocating recruitment duties, this is about ensuring that managers don't abuse their power or make poor financial decisions that have long term implications.
Fallouts with Luke Shaw or Rafael would now be detrimental to the manager. Managers like Mourinho wouldn't just be able to isolate and bully players with the media lapping it up as "he knows what he's doing". Ten Haag and LVG wouldn't just be able to employ ridiculous tactical experiments with no explanation and assessment. Moyes and Ten Haag would have their coaching methods questioned. I also see this as an avenue for players to air their grievances without needing to go to the press. Fergie may not have been, but more than anything else, the last ten years should have taught fans that the role of manager that we currently employ can be tyrannical and result in poor decision making under a lot of managers.The new structure would entail less power and job security for the manager (head coach), because they can't be trusted to make big picture judgments in the best interests of the team. The system does not help Ten Haag manage players or apply tactics; it only ensures that his player management and tactics implementation are closely monitored. That is why the idea of keeping him to observe how he operates within the structure makes no sense.
Fair enough I see what you mean now. That might be good for the new manager not sure it's a good thing for Manchester United though.
Conditions at the top end of football are rarely optimal.
I'm sorry, but at this point it's a ridiculous opinion to have. What some of our fans have shown us is that they actually don't know just how good Fergie was. It's insulting to act like any manager, even one conceding 20 shots a game without creating chances, can simply become great if given time. Like anyone can just be Fergie. Same reason Ole and Moyes got the job. Like the media, I don't think people understand just how great Fergie was tactically. This notion that his squad management and people skills were the factors that made him so great has come at the detriment of the club.
Fergie used a system that worked for the league and was so tactically smart that he could create and modify systems based on the personnel available to him. Getting the team to spray passes all over the pitch, maintaining a high intensity, getting numbers into the box, assuring outstanding wing play, having terrific counter attacks and links on the flanks, and ensuring that crosses had little impact on our goal. Fergie was regularly able to communicate these ideas to our squads, and his teams were effective in employing that on the pitch due to how he communicated to them and trained them. However, because he is Scottish and did not go into conferences discussing tactics, many people believe he was simply ordinary tactically. That's why people can think Ole could have grown into the role of manager or that Ten Haag can turn it around. Liverpool had the same exact thinking with their boot room philosophy, and eventually that led to their fall. So its no surprise we're here. The English media had a lot to do with that line of thinking with their overpraise for managers like Wenger and Mourinho bringing in differing tactics. We all watched our teams under Fergie, but many of us still don't seem to understand what excellent football looks like, and the managers we've hired have never come close to making our team truly competitive.
To be fair you don't need to be a magician to do that, just a competent football coach.
On the second part I agree ETH won't have a big say this summer, in fact given his perfromances this season if he stays I doubt he will have much say at all. Which means which players leave will not depend on whether or not he's the manager next season.
I didn't say he's done literally nothing well, last season was good overall although the downturn in performances post League Cup final was a sign of things to come.
This season I don't see any good signs though, it's been an utter disaster. I think it's been worse than even Moyes. I hold no animosity towards ETH, I like him and I really wish he'd been a huge success here. I just think he has to go.
Don't think Jose has ever done that in his career though, once it gets bad it gets really bad and he has to get booted. Van Gaal done it once that I can remember at AZ.
McTominay is very debatable. He's playing him in a more attacking role that allows Scott to score more goals, but his all-round game has actually gotten worse and he's having even less impact on the 80% of games that he doesn't score in than he used to.
Dalot and arguably Fred last season are the only players I'd say have improved under ETH to a level higher than they'd shown before with us. There's a few other players who improved a bit over where they were in the season directly before ETH came here, but still worse than what they'd shown in previous seasons.
Whadda ye reckon, will INEOs take a flamethrower to the squad or go for a more normal 3/4 out/in
Problem with these discussions is almost everyone sits in an extreme, which makes it really difficult to have any sort of fair or reasonable conversation.
In this very thread there were plenty of comments saying he'll need time etc.
Up to the start of this season, I didn't see many (if really any) calling his ability as a manager into question.
By and large his appointment was met with optimism.
So when people come in and say he's shit, doesn't have a clue etc then they're clearly emotional ramblings of an upset individual, not really the best demographic to look for meaningful or thoughtful input.
IMO he's done enough and had enough mitigation to be given the summer and at least start of the season. But he's at a point where if he doesn't get things turned round then he's in real trouble.
We still have a lot of this squad to gut out and I'd prefer to do that before moving on to yet another manager.
On paper ETH has the attributes we will likely want from the next manager. I don't expect our recruitment will result in players that the next manager's style wouldn't suit either.
Last thing we need is upheaval going on at the top, players leaving left, right and centre, decisions still to be made on certain players and then a brand new manager and staff to come wading in and try to oversee it.
I think there's a fair argument to be made that last season he took a more pragmatic approach. Realised we don't have the players to dominate games, so we bunkered down a little more. We were pretty sound defensively last season but we also couldn't really control or dominate games. This isn't sustainable in the long term and won't consistently win titles, so we've looked to move to a more forward thinking, attacking style but we don't have the players to do it.
Sure, he could have changed this back but if you're thinking long term, I don't think it's unreasonable that he may be saying "no, we'll see who can swim and who will sink". Tightening it up, being harder to beat an playing on the counter won't highlight all of the played who can't play a more attacking, dominant style and could paper over the cracks leading to some players staying, when really they need to be moved on.
Mourinho tried this as well and was sacked. Ole tried it and was sacked.
At some point we need to take it on the chin and say yeah OK, let's play through the pain and give it more than a month before we kick off.
I do feel he'll have found more out about the squad this season than he would have had if he'd just looked to keep it tight and play counter attack to get through the season.
I expect Ineos to be drawing up (and maintain) a list of candidates. Happy to let them sort other things out first and give ETH until October/November and if things are the same, move him on at a time when you aren't bringing in backroom roles and seeing a large number of players come and go. Next season won't be a title challenge either way and if we end up sacking him, I'd rather a new manager come in with minimal upheaval.
According to football fans, Fergie was a dinosaur and needing to go on at least two occasions, Arteta was useless and the process was a meme, Klopp was a flop who couldn't get over the line in a final, Mourinho is shite and the list goes on.
Football fans are not who you want to go to for a balanced, reasoned and informed view on things. I trust that Ineos will take a less emotionally immature view and at this stage if they feel we're better replacing him then I'll trust that thought process but I am also fine to keep him in and see how things ago. Again, if they have had months at the club and feel that would be the better way to navigate this summer with him here then I trust their judgement over mine in all honesty.
In this very thread there were plenty of comments saying he'll need time etc.
Up to the start of this season, I didn't see many (if really any) calling his ability as a manager into question.
By and large his appointment was met with optimism.
So when people come in and say he's shit, doesn't have a clue etc then they're clearly emotional ramblings of an upset individual, not really the best demographic to look for meaningful or thoughtful input.
IMO he's done enough and had enough mitigation to be given the summer and at least start of the season. But he's at a point where if he doesn't get things turned round then he's in real trouble.
We still have a lot of this squad to gut out and I'd prefer to do that before moving on to yet another manager.
On paper ETH has the attributes we will likely want from the next manager. I don't expect our recruitment will result in players that the next manager's style wouldn't suit either.
Last thing we need is upheaval going on at the top, players leaving left, right and centre, decisions still to be made on certain players and then a brand new manager and staff to come wading in and try to oversee it.
I think there's a fair argument to be made that last season he took a more pragmatic approach. Realised we don't have the players to dominate games, so we bunkered down a little more. We were pretty sound defensively last season but we also couldn't really control or dominate games. This isn't sustainable in the long term and won't consistently win titles, so we've looked to move to a more forward thinking, attacking style but we don't have the players to do it.
Sure, he could have changed this back but if you're thinking long term, I don't think it's unreasonable that he may be saying "no, we'll see who can swim and who will sink". Tightening it up, being harder to beat an playing on the counter won't highlight all of the played who can't play a more attacking, dominant style and could paper over the cracks leading to some players staying, when really they need to be moved on.
Mourinho tried this as well and was sacked. Ole tried it and was sacked.
At some point we need to take it on the chin and say yeah OK, let's play through the pain and give it more than a month before we kick off.
I do feel he'll have found more out about the squad this season than he would have had if he'd just looked to keep it tight and play counter attack to get through the season.
I expect Ineos to be drawing up (and maintain) a list of candidates. Happy to let them sort other things out first and give ETH until October/November and if things are the same, move him on at a time when you aren't bringing in backroom roles and seeing a large number of players come and go. Next season won't be a title challenge either way and if we end up sacking him, I'd rather a new manager come in with minimal upheaval.
According to football fans, Fergie was a dinosaur and needing to go on at least two occasions, Arteta was useless and the process was a meme, Klopp was a flop who couldn't get over the line in a final, Mourinho is shite and the list goes on.
Football fans are not who you want to go to for a balanced, reasoned and informed view on things. I trust that Ineos will take a less emotionally immature view and at this stage if they feel we're better replacing him then I'll trust that thought process but I am also fine to keep him in and see how things ago. Again, if they have had months at the club and feel that would be the better way to navigate this summer with him here then I trust their judgement over mine in all honesty.
So banning a few players who misbehaved and regularly playing two of the best yongsters we've had in decades?
That's a very low bar mate to base giving him another season on. Literally any experienced manager could/would have did both.
Such a low bar.
I could see them being more interested in stream lining the squad and look to get a few of the older top earners like Varane and Casemiro out plus Sancho. That's about £1m a week in wages right there. But other than that I don't see them embarking on a massive clear out, it'll be 4-6 out and probably 4-6 in depending on sales.
Which players and why do you think Ten Hag staying would mean they would leave?
* 14 months
Yeah, we have a mish mash of players who either don't suit playing in the same system or haven't had a coach who could gel them into a team that plays an expansive system in any sort of consistent manner. But we still have a lot of good players and some very good ones.
It would make no sense whatsoever when INEOS has replaced all the sidekicks in the football management without replacing the actual manager himself.
If they already have in mind their top priority manager and he is not available immediately then it would sense to keep ETH around for 1 more season for transition.
Our team is neither physical or technical, so not sure where we start from.Do you want Sancho starting for United again? If yes, then do it.
But actually Terzic is a quite interesting case and probably worth a look at to compare with the EtH situation. Because both have been playing a system this season (and used players) that didn't work well. Terzic was in danger of being sacked for months, but instead Dortmund actually made some changes during the winter. Slightly different approach to transfers (getting Sancho and Maatsen instead of focusing on more physical types as they did in the summer) and changed the coaching staff. And especially Nuri Sahin allegedly is more focused on possession football to actually move the team in that direction.
Dortmund still are not a great team and Terzic' job is probably only saved because they reached the CL semifinal (which might be crucial to qualify for the CL as it helps Germany a lot to get the 5th spot), but it shows that you can act and change a full setup while keeping the manager, if he accepts he made a mistake. So far nothing indicates that United/EtH acknowledge they made a mistake and they did nothing to change the setup during this season.
ETH is just clueless, no player can play this system effectively.
Yeah, I didn't mean that EtH plays the same system as Terzic - both have issues, but for different reasons and play in a different way. And Terzic seamed to be just as clueless how to fix it as EtH, that's why I compared them.
People change their position/opinions with new available information/data. Shocker.
Nevermind that plenty questioned our football even last season.
Yeh, I want a purge but expect a more balanced
Approach by INEOs. I don’t get the Zidane links, feel like he’s a manager who is good with a squad ready to properly challange and I feel we are at least 2 summers (if we do it all well) away from that.
I need to sometimes remind myself that I’m in a Manchester United fan forum and not Eric Ten Hag fan forum. I don’t think even Jose had this vociferous minority of fans who continued to back him over the club. This guy is making a complete laughing stock of us with the way we play and we have many people willing to excuse it and even give him another season. I’d rather have the u18s coach manage the team than this guy managing us.
I’m actually astounded that 30 percent want this nightmare to continue. Really thought only a very small minority was still behind him. You lot deserve the football you’re getting.
I don't think it has to be long term, especially under new stucture that isn't going to be an issue. We could totally go for a manager that would only be here for a couple of years or even a single season.
But what I meant was, there are many managers out there. There's no real reason why we shouldn't be able to find someone who will do a better job than ETH is doing. Looking at it from the perspective of there not being a Pep out there available is wrong. Just how many of us would have wanted Alonso when Leverkusen hired him for instance? If the new people in charge are competent then finding another manager should not be an impossible task.
Yeah, one option is to go with the equivalent of a Ranieri while Ashworth and company work on a clearer direction.
While his appointment was met with deserved optimism and overall he may not be a bad coach, that does not mean that he cannot be classed as a bad coach of Manchester United. Last season was decent, certainly not our best in the past 10 years or so, and the only reason it's considered decent is because we got champions league football and a league cup. We however, ended the season terribly and suffered several hammerings (some which should be considered unacceptable) along the way.
This season has been a disaster, we have accomplished nothing as a team. There has been decisions made and stuck with that have cost us severely. ETH can complain about injuries all he wants, an injury crisis is nothing new to this squad and other managers have faired better. He abandoned, quite quickly, the style of football the fans wanted him to implement, he abandoned pragmatic football, and he has implemented chaos. The fact the not a single person outside of our management can find reason with the way we play is telling. It's not just folk hating United because we are United, there has been a genuine consensus (even among fans) that we are playing complete rubbish. Ten Hag doesn't need to test the squad (especially for such a long period) to see who will sink or swim, the average United supporter on the street could answer that question. There's certainly no need for him to derail our season.
We keep talking about squad overall this and squad overall that. In football that does not happen every year, and quite frankly the squad has had a decent overhauling. As a coach at this level, it should not take 2 seasons to get to the starting point of your philosophy. Folk will come on here and say "You lot would have gotten rid of Fergie", and maybe we would have. Football has changed and there's countless examples of coaches doing better in shorter periods.
The question it boils down to for me is, Can I see a bright future with Ten Hag. Subtracting all the issues of ownership, injuries, management etc, I am still thoroughly disappointed in him as the leader of this team. To me he has completely failed at his job. I do not see the situation as Ten Hag is holding Manchester United together with plasters and duct tape...he has himself contributed significantly to the damage we have sustained.
Some players need to be sent packing, but even then Maguire? McTominay? we shit on them but this season they've got on with it, they've bailed the team out several times. So as much as we could do with better players, we could also do with better coaching...or coaching to begin with.
And the main job of a coach is to help everyone to swim and if possible swim at an olympic level. It's not to purposedly drown his players and himself.
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There's no point keeping him in post for a single season, given his contract expires next summer. He'll want to be involved in recruitment, which is a non-starter if he's not going to be here longer term.