Which one? Onana?
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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Are you a DOF? I'm not, I still wouldn't sign Antony for £90m, Mount for £55m, Casemiro for £60m, Hojlund for £70m etc when we're bereft of a midfield. Ten Hag doesn't need 10 years experience as a DOF to know that either, and Murtough is simply doing his job in backing the manager who decides he wants certain players, at whatever the cost it seems because Ten Hag think they're the 'complete midfielder' and who is Murtough to challenge that opinion as someone who's never managed a game in his life?
We previously left our signings to a certain Woodward, which also didn't work. Giving Ten Hag free will is equally as bad.
It's pretty hilarious that we saw what Ajax were doing, thought we could pinch their manager and a couple of their players and that's all that needed to be done. The top brass just don't have a single fecking clue what they are doing.
Be that as it may (I think you're chatting bollocks anyway but will entertain your "I wouldn't do xyz") - its not his job to finalize those players and sanction them and then sanction the money spent.
We wasted money before Ten Hag, we've wasted some money under Ten Hag. You can pick 100 things to genuinely criticize Ten Hag but don't talk like a bafoon insinuating the £400m spent is solely his remit.
This is it in a nutshell.
ETH's comment that these players cannot play like Ajax, felt like a resignation to me.
It felt to me as though he knows that these players will not adapt, take onboard new ideas, or be prepared to graft.
Funnily they were saying on the radio this morning, appoint De Zerbi, look how he has Brighton playing.
Which makes me laugh, do you honestly see these players running their socks off for the cause, and putting in the kind of effort that Brighton's players do..?
All the signings we've made are linked to Ten Hag in some capacity. He managed them, he played against them in Holland, they have the same management agency etc. They're his players, he wanted them, he got them, now he states he can't play good football with the players he wanted and signed.
We wasted money before, but now we're wasting really big money on some guys that are linked to Ten Hag's management company (that his son works at no less) instead of trusting our scouts who lets be honest, couldn't do any worse at this point.
Do you think the club recruited him to mandate that he implements direct football? The club targeted his key signings and let him opt for familiarity over other scouted profiles, and sided with him in some big player decisions -- I highly doubt this was all underpinned by the caveat of ensuring he played direct football.
They just aren't that good. People looked down on the Newcastle side before the game last night but their two full backs Hall and Livramento cost £60m+ between them and are both highly rated. Meanwhile we're playing Dalot who has never been good enough and a Spurs reject.
No but he’ll just train young players, Dan Gore, Kobie Mainoo, Hanibal, Shea Lacey and Omari Forson will all get a chance. We might do some creative transfers plus I think he’ll lure Evan Ferguson, Mitoma and A Fati to the club, all three huge upgrades on the squad right now.
The football and results haven't been great, but there's no need to make stuff up. He's signed 16 players.. only 8 of those have been permanent transfers with a fee involved, one was a backup keeper. The rest have been frees and loans to cover holes in the squad.
Only 7 players he signed out of the 15 that played last night, 2 of them were loanees, 4+1 emergency loan started. 5 players he actually bought played, that's really only half his team.
Onana - ETH
Dalot -Jose
Lindelof - Jose
Maguire - Ole
Reguilon - ETH emergency loan
Casemiro - ETH
Mount - ETH
Antony - ETH
Martial - LVG
Garnacho -Youth (Ole)
Subs
Amrabat- ETH Loan
Hojlund - ETH
Bruno - Ole
Rashford - Youth (LVG)
Yeh..
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He didn't say that. He started by saying he is fully responsible for the bad performances of the team. Didn't get drawn on any individualsd despite them trying to get him to slag Antony and, when asked how he gets out of this situation, responded by saying he won't give up because he's a fighter.
Sorry if that doesn't fit with your narrative, but you can go watch his press conference yourself if you don't believe me.
These same players would throw Sir Alex Ferguson under the bus too.
They'd say he doesn't have good enough people skills and doesn't get the best out of individuals.
Same as Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole, Rangnick and now Ten Hag.
We should get rid of the players that have killed every one of those managers.
Shaw and Rashford should be first for me. Closely followed by Martial and Sancho. Players who haven't shown consistency despite being here for YEARS.
If Ten Hag was open to culling a few more dead players I'd let him do it. Purely to stop the cycle repeating. Shaw gets in shape for another new manager.... Rashford starts scoring a few goals until he gets a new contract....
It's beyond certain that it's the players that are the issue so let Ten Hag and the recruitment have the January and Summer transfer windows to see if we can get 3 or 4 first team starter level players.
They'd say he doesn't have good enough people skills and doesn't get the best out of individuals.
Same as Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole, Rangnick and now Ten Hag.
We should get rid of the players that have killed every one of those managers.
Shaw and Rashford should be first for me. Closely followed by Martial and Sancho. Players who haven't shown consistency despite being here for YEARS.
If Ten Hag was open to culling a few more dead players I'd let him do it. Purely to stop the cycle repeating. Shaw gets in shape for another new manager.... Rashford starts scoring a few goals until he gets a new contract....
It's beyond certain that it's the players that are the issue so let Ten Hag and the recruitment have the January and Summer transfer windows to see if we can get 3 or 4 first team starter level players.
Are there any other big team manager out there who have more of his own players in starting line up playing worst football though?
How many other big team managers have had to come in and deal with the same levels of bad overpaid signings and squad building that has accumulated over 4/5 managers in 10 years?
I'm not making excuses for him, but the absolute state of that squad for the money that's been spent of them and the wages they are on. As I posted above, at least 15 players int his squad need to go and be replaced over the next few years. It takes more than 18 months to sort that shit out.
Then blame the director of football for not doing his job and actually putting forward targets of their own. Ten hag is a manager. Criticise his managing.
Played very well vs copenhagen and City do it didn't take long to find more than one in 15.
Ok. Make it count as 2 in 15 games then. Impressive stats.
Nah, I don't really have a narrative here. It's just difficult after such a loss what you say as a manager, I can see that. If you say that they didn't give their best, you throw them under the bus, the alternative is to say they tried their best (as he did) which suggests they are just not good enough. Whatever you say as a manager at this point can't look good, because what happened is just bad.
Yes, the DOF was going to sign Antony, Mount, Onana, Amrabat, Malacia, and Martinez on his own accord regardless of who the manager was. So its definitely on him. So with that to one side, can we ask why the feck Ten Hag won't play any of the players his DOF has signed for him? I thought he worked well in that system where he received players purchased for him?
Seems like it’s a case of when not if he’s sacked. I personally think the problems run much deeper than the manager but you simply cannot continue to lose football matches on a weekly basis and expect to remain in a job.
I like this idea of wholesale change of 30 new players in the squad before making an impact.
So he had a bad game yesterday too?
The manager doesn't strong the DoF. If they are yes men, then thats a problem with the structure.
I know you really want to blame Ten Hag for the structure, but you actually can't
(or you can, just youd have no case for it)Why can't some accept, that maybe, just maybe, ETH is just not as good of a coach as we thought. Sure he did well with Ajax and had a great season in CL, where he was ultimately undone by Spurs, but as many before him have shown, that does not necessarily translate to the PL. He has shown little in the way of adaptability and complete lack of (self) awareness by sticking to his system, which is not suited to the PL and/or has been found out, yet he proceedes to only shuffle players aronud, hoping it will somehow magically click.
He's had plenty of time and has so far shown nothing to suggest, he has any idea how to turn this around, zero. His transfers are also bemusing, to say the least, as other then Arambat, the others were not really needed. De Gea had his shortcommings, but is Onana really an upgrade, Mount, while certainly not a bad player, doesn't plug any gapping holes in the team.
Some people are calling him a fraud, and I think it's unfair, but as Wout demonstrated last year, a player who's had a decent return in every league he's played in, has spectacullary failed in the PL, twice, scoring only 2 goals in 37 apperances, the PL is "different" and not everyone adapts.
He's had plenty of time and has so far shown nothing to suggest, he has any idea how to turn this around, zero. His transfers are also bemusing, to say the least, as other then Arambat, the others were not really needed. De Gea had his shortcommings, but is Onana really an upgrade, Mount, while certainly not a bad player, doesn't plug any gapping holes in the team.
Some people are calling him a fraud, and I think it's unfair, but as Wout demonstrated last year, a player who's had a decent return in every league he's played in, has spectacullary failed in the PL, twice, scoring only 2 goals in 37 apperances, the PL is "different" and not everyone adapts.
I'm quite torn to be honest.
I'm don't think ETH is the right person long term as putting aside injuries, whether he's got enough of his targets or not, you have to be able to adapt to what you have and I really can't see how he's doing that. The squad isn't good enough to challenge but it's able to do better than it is doing and he has to shoulder a lot of the blame for that. I think if he has good people around him who will give him an honest message and he will listen to that and react then I think he can steady the ship a bit as I'm not sure who we can bring in right now. If he isn't willing to adapt though then I think it's difficult to see how he can continue as it doesn't feel like we're nearly there and just need a final piece to fall/bit of luck, we look awful.
However I really do think we have a lot of problem players who just aren't performing/ seem entitled for various reasons and I worry that changing the manager again just further embolden them. Internally I think we need to recognise that our player decisions whether that's on signing players or retaining players is fundamentally flawed and we need to ask ourselves some serious questions on how we move forward.
I'm don't think ETH is the right person long term as putting aside injuries, whether he's got enough of his targets or not, you have to be able to adapt to what you have and I really can't see how he's doing that. The squad isn't good enough to challenge but it's able to do better than it is doing and he has to shoulder a lot of the blame for that. I think if he has good people around him who will give him an honest message and he will listen to that and react then I think he can steady the ship a bit as I'm not sure who we can bring in right now. If he isn't willing to adapt though then I think it's difficult to see how he can continue as it doesn't feel like we're nearly there and just need a final piece to fall/bit of luck, we look awful.
However I really do think we have a lot of problem players who just aren't performing/ seem entitled for various reasons and I worry that changing the manager again just further embolden them. Internally I think we need to recognise that our player decisions whether that's on signing players or retaining players is fundamentally flawed and we need to ask ourselves some serious questions on how we move forward.
Perfect time for ETH to replace Van’t Schip at Ajax.
It is where he belongs. United are experts at killing talent at player and managerial level.
It is where he belongs. United are experts at killing talent at player and managerial level.
Fair enough - so you see the position he's in. As you say, he can't come out and say they are all cnuts, but if he offers faint praise, those who want him to come out angry and call the players out will be enraged. If he says it's down to him, which he just did, then people say 'aha... then you need to be sacked'
I think he probably should just resign, refuse any pay off and therefore any obligation to remain silent, and then speak his mind about the whole shit show that is the former big football club, Manchester United.
LVG, Jose and Ragnick all told us the club is a shadow of what it should be behind the scenes, and all of were dismissed as 'being bitter about being moved on'.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that's the case.
No one told him to implement direct football.
It's his own choice.
The recruitment bit, I agree with. A lot of his signings should have been vetoed.
People keep using cliches like he lost the dressing room, player power, primadonnas etc - some even buying into conspiracy theories about him not being allowed to shout at players or the players revolting because of Sancho - but the players don’t look like they’ve given up - they’re trying. they just don’t seem to know what to do and they’re not very good
these things fall on the manager - when you consider how long he’s been here, how much he’s spent and how many players he’s brought in. Also, United has been shit since last season.
maybe the manager’s just out of his depth
these things fall on the manager - when you consider how long he’s been here, how much he’s spent and how many players he’s brought in. Also, United has been shit since last season.
maybe the manager’s just out of his depth
Agreed. The performance against City was bad. But against a much better side.
The performance last night was totally unacceptable by any measure.
So what has to happen. Because it can not go on like this.
And that is down to Ten Hag. That is his job.
But he is clearly struggling to deal with it. So he needs some help from the senior players.
But who are we talking about. Who are the leaders:
Maguire. Bruno. Casemiro?
And when you are in trouble, the quickest thing to do is to simplify things.
Concentrate on keeping the defence as tight as possible.
Nothing wrong with a few 0-0 to get some confidence back. And then start to build on that.
Because some of the failed transfers played under him.
But it could well be that the job is too big for him. I wanted here, like so many others, but he looks absolutely overwhelmed, and because of how he alienated portions of the squad, he's created rifts where the squaddies aren't playing for him, which gives him little to nowhere to turn to i.e. a sinking ship that he more than likely doesn't have the means to get to the proverbial port anymore.
Separate from anything else, he is being outcoached by every team we face. That is the biggest alarm bell of all; the football he is playing, and then his in-game management have been appalling. I don't know what you refer to by courage, but in the cerebral back and forths between he and other managers, he is being dragged from pillar to post. Slow to recognise danger, very slow to address tactical amendments, and even when he does, his substitutions have been horrendous. We can look at everything else, but the bottom line at the moment is his ideas are not translating to English football, and without hero bailouts (Rashford's super streak), we look lost.
Because he hasn't implemented a workable and transferable system, the players always look like strangers who have just met one another. Always, even on good days, our football is disjointed and has sporadically successful moments, rather than fluid halves of football.
There is nothing to actually back with ten Hag:
personnel - dire. He doesn't even trust his own purchases by now;
implementation of any kind of system - absent, we play the worst football in the league sans only Everton and Luton now;
squad management and motivation - he created a rift that has caused him to lose the squad, those he favours are all out of confidence;
preparedness - most of us have been alarmed since preseason at just how unprepared we are for the challenges we face. He either underestimates the league or just doesn't get it;
There's nowhere to turn and state he's even mediocre; it's been a capitulation. An awful formation idea (Casemiro-Mount-Bruno) put us on the backfoot from the outset, and everything has conpounded since then.
With the best will in the world, I don't know how he turns this around. People calling him pragmatic, but he doesn't seem to have any idea how to be pragmatic, because the first thing a pragmatist would do is secure his base (midfield), which is what all great coaches fix before anything else.
It's looking increasingly like he cannot set up an underdog team in this league. At Ajax, they were overwhelmingly better players than the rest of the league, but we don't have that, not even close and it looks like he cannot adapt or cope under the circumstances he's mostly created for himself.
Which I've dug into. Antony for sure. Mount the jury is out.
I want to know who are 'his' players which are classed as failures. I'm not a fan of some of his transfers don't get me wrong. But I want to dig into the "wasted £400m" line.
I don't think ten Hag is all that either. He's not a bad coach and can keep us challenging for top 6 (lol) fairly regularly, but he'll not lay a glove on Pep and Klopp while they remain in the Premier League. He is the Derek Chisora of the heavyweight division.
I think Klopp was genuinely more terrified of Rangnick than ETH.
It's just a matter of time before people realize it.
He's conned a good portion of the fanbase.
There's definitely some players we need to get rid of, but our manager has been a complete embarrassment over our last 37 games.
Antony, Malacia, Martinez, Onana... I would not call these players failures. But I would say that, as of right now, they don't look like long-term signings for a club of the level and expectations of Manchester United. This is an indication that, perhaps, the job is too big for Ten Hag. That he can't really see what sets apart the players for a top top club from the players that can do a good job somewhere else.
I'd call Antony a failure.
I think Malacia who came in as a 22 year old back-up LB is a perfectly fine recruit for £13m or whatever it was. I disagree on Licha, think he's brilliant but had terrible luck with the injury. Onana is 27 and yeah I agree he has some major goalkeeping flaws. He's improved a lot of late but I can sort of see your worry there.
That said, dont' think that's a waste of £400m. And I think the bigger failure is on the footballing lot above him to not have targets of their own to put down.