Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[JagUTD]

I know right, so many. It's almost like the manager royally cocked up their preseason conditioning/early season workloads.

He should have known United players don't do intensive. That's entirely on him of course.

Daft sod must have thought we were Ajax, or Liverpool or City or just about anyone else. You know, teams that subject their players to intensive training, that thing many called for when we were talking up impressively low distance stats and being outrun every single game.

The hell does he think he is?

 

[Cloud7]

First it was "time + faith = SAF"
Then it became "time + faith = Pep / Klopp"
Now it's "time + faith = Arteta"

Give it another month and it'll become "time + faith = Hodgson"

 

[hobbers]

He should have known United players don't do intensive. That's entirely on him of course.

Daft sod must have thought we were Ajax, or Liverpool or City or just about anyone else. You know, teams that subject their players to intensive training, that thing many called for when we were talking up impressively low distance stats and being outrun every single game.

The hell does he think he is?

They subject their players to barrels of peds first. Key step missed.

 

[JagUTD]

They subject their players to barrels of peds first. Key step missed.

Typical United, always one step behind.

 

[ThemanGiggsy]

Have no idea how any Utd fan can support ETH at this point. Seriously, loyatly to a failed manager hinders the club. The players signed are on him, the club gave him complete control. Antony for £50m is still a bang average player. Sure he couldnt sign in the last winter window, but he wasted the first summer chasing FDJ and then panic splurge on Antony. Lots of internal leaks blame ETH for injuries for not rotating last season, so I dont think we are 'unlucky'. its all on him.

Even without this, you seen any sense on a football pitch of a team you recognise as Manchester f@@@ing United. Because I dont.

i get your points. and i am not saying he is blameless, like sticking with McTominary or not playing Varane. baffling decisons.

we knew he didnt rotate a lot before we signed him. all the ajax fans on the Caf said as much.

I have seen the team play extremely well and extremely poorly. They are incredibly inconsistent. part of which is down to the manager.

i have also seen some serious injuries, bad luck with VAR, when the same stuff isnt flagged the next week, and then some serious poor independent errors from players that a manager has no contol over.

 

[ti vu]

It’s interesting listening to Jaap Stam on Stick To Football where he talks about him and Johnsen being left two on two for counters because everyone else bombed forward. And that they could handle it.

It’s not too dissimilar to how ETH sets us up. Very attacking. Big gaps left behind but obviously we lack the personnel to actually make it work regularly.

Having a monster of 1vs 1 GK like Schmeichel helped. Maybe I am biased and I didn't see enough game of other teams, leagues like Bundesliga, Ligue 1 back in the days; but Schmeichel is IMO on different level to all GKs since the 90s, when it comes to 1 vs 1 against attackers. His GK style is not true sweeper's where he came out of the box like Barthez, VDS to clear the ball before attackers received, controlled the pass. It feels as if he picked his time well, quick to engage to close shooting angle inside the box and he intimidated attackers to rush the shot. His fantastic shot stopping ability is not just saving shot on the line, but including consistently stop close range shots from 1 vs 1 situation. It may not make into beautiful save compilation, but it's much more impressive when you put context into analysis.

It's not a good tactic. Even SAF evolved from that point on, adapted to modern tactic of his time. 07--08 was already vastly different to 98-99. Hypothetically, if he's active in modern game his team wouldn't look out of place, since he highly likely changed the coach, adapted to new demand. When we talk about great players, great teams of the past, we shouldn't think of it just as they can use same tactic back then in modern game. It's about players quality, coachable level, mental strength (when there was more temptation and less expectation from public to professional commitment). Great players at that level highly likely would adapt to modern games, modern tactic.

 

[JPRouve]

I was vehemently ten Hag in well before he got here and was very much on board with most things in the first season, but honestly, I don't think I've seen a manager sabotage himself like this before.

From the moment the next phase began, it's been akin to accelerating into a wall and he's made bad decisions on top of bad to even exacerbate that. He's really shredded confidence with each turn and I don't know what possible positive or constructive thing you can say he's done whilst his negative column has enough against him to fill an A4 page.

More damning than that is if/when he goes, we're left with all those dud signings on massive wages that nobody will touch. For as long as this could go on for (INEOS), he might be fairly labelled our worst post-Fergie manager outright, which is unfathomable from the end of the '22/'23 campaign when all signs pointed upward.

I was extremely hopeful but if I'm being honest the only reason I'm not against ETH yet is the blind hope that he gets back to what he has been able to do in the past. Though we are talking about a 53 years old manager, it's generally not a good age for hope.

 

[Rista]

I think we have deluded fans who mistake blind faith with being a top fan. I really wanted and hoped he would succeed. Sure the structure has failed him, though would love to know what signings he vetoed in favour of his choices like Antony, Mount, Onana, Amrabat etc. They are all poor, Mount and Antony just incredibly underwhelming. What does he expect to happen on the pitch? There is nothing there.

This is exactly it, you can see it everywhere, especially on social media. Even someone like Ole finished 2nd and 3rd. And now you have people in this very thread saying ETH massively overachieved last season and it's our fault for expecting too much?? I just don't understand how can anyone watch us play week after week and say things like "we can't judge the manager, it's the structure". Like we can't see with our own eyes that our football is diabolical and not looking to improve. Literally the equivalent of saying "we don't know if Antony is a world beater or not". Like yeah, he could potentially do better in a better side, but very fecking unlikely he's a world beater. If we can't see any manager influence whatsoever in our play, then what's the point of a manager, what is his job? You'd think of all fanbases, ours would be the first to appreciate what difference a good manager can make but apparently not.

We have literally sacked every single manager since Fergie, in a short amount of time, for being unsuccesful.

The average PL manager tenure is 2 years. We have not sacked managers in a "short amount of time" relative to everyone else. This is important to understand. We're not a sacking club, we're not impatient. In fact, compared to almost every other big club we're too patient for our own good.

 

[THE ZOL]

Fans are so blind or don't get it. Fergie was already a serial winner who turned a smallish club into Scottish champions (when Scottish football was decent) and won a major European trophy before coming to OT. That earnt him lots of credit, as well as work he was doing on youth side. Klopp earnt time with his consistent achievements at Dortmund, two league wins and 2 runners up, and clarity on what he was doing and direction they were going. ETH is or has none of these attributes. The average fan stuck with Ole far too long, we should have laughed Moyes out of OT, and Mou for that matter.

Spot on.

Another thing to remember is how Sir Alex bought time while progress was not linear or chronological.

His first 22 signings before a league win were generally spot on and played a crucial part in the team.

This included: Choccy, Sparky, Pally, Brucey, Incey, Kanchelskis, Schmeichel, Dennis Irwin, Sharpey, Mick Phelan… they became the spine of the team. Then there were also good and dependable players he signed that were sold before we won the league: Danny Wallace, Neil Webb, Viv Anderson and Mal Donaghy.

It was for these reasons that Sir Alex’s talent ID was trusted when he was getting rid of big names such as Whiteside and McGrath in a war against the drinking culture at the club (but, crucially, he was a pragmatist in that he knew he had to keep his captain Robson because he compensated for his drinking habits with his performances on the pitch and his wider influence with regards to raising standards).

It was this same kind of flexibility which enabled Sir Alex to harness the potential of Eric Cantona to enable him to be the focal point of our dominance in the 90s. He adapted to Cantona’s personality and gave him the freedom to work his magic, and this meant squad morale remained high as they understood the rationale for one rule for Eric, and another rule for everyone else.

Sir Alex also sought to rejuvenate the scouting system and the academy. He had an impact across the whole club, which showed that he had a process, and this constantly bought him time even as results on the pitch were inconsistent. Even so, we still challenged for the league in his second season.

As for Ten Hag… he says he’s trying to change the culture but the players he is bringing in are not a cut above the ones we are losing, which suggests he is not having an impact on the scouting system

While Sir Alex was securing players like a young Lee Sharpe from Torquay, Ten Hag is heavily reliant on either players he formally worked with, players in the agency his son works at or players he previously watched in the Eredivisie. Sir Alex was not a nepotist like this.

Firstly, he was happy to get rid of Gordon Strachan despite working with him at Aberdeen. Secondly, when Ralph Milne flopped (a devestating winger in Scotland at the time) he focused on English First Division proven players and veered away from Scottish talents.

I can’t see how Ten Hag is impacting the academy either. For example, under LvG, he had them playing the same 3-5-2 the first team were playing, even adopting the Dutch number system such as having left-back wear the number 5.

Beyond the fact that Sir Alex is a football genius who won a European trophy with Aberdeen, he also has far more charisma and personal influence than Ten Hag. You just have to listen to Ten Hag in the press conferences. Does he inspire you? Does he seem like a man with a plan and a process? Can you trust him? I can’t. He contradicts himself too much. Earlier in the season he said the squad is good. A few games later after Bournemouth pammed us at home he said they aren’t.

Last summer he signed us players suited a posession-based system. This summer he signs a posession goalkeeper and two transition players and tells us we will be a transition team. Then he tells us we can’t play the Ajax way because he doesn’t have the right players for it (he did not sign them) yet he is idealogically wedded to the same 3-1-6 tactic despite its repeated failures. The players are not stupid. They are probably confused and have likely lost faith in him.

To compare Ten Hag to Sir Alex is ridiculous. Sir Alex came with a track record of minor miracles at Aberdeen and showed that he had a process that might bear fruit. Ten Hag’s decisions have been too baffling and contradictory for us to ascertain what his process or vision looks like. It is confusing, and given how regularly he gets tactically outmastered by weaker teams, his competency is seriously questionable. Sir Alex was earning the right to be a disciplinarian and shape the club in his image. Ten Hag has not earned that right because we do not even know what he is working towards!

 

[Fortitude]

I was extremely hopeful but if I'm being honest the only reason I'm not against ETH yet is the blind hope that he gets back to what he has been able to do in the past. Though we are talking about a 53 years old manager, it's generally not a good age for hope.

I cannot abide by poor in-game management as it's a real hallmark of the best managers without fail, and ten Hag looks absolutely barren in that department, which has completely shocked me as he came with the reputation of being a keen analyst of the game to the micro detail, and yet, as time has gone by, he's been outcoached by anyone with a competent team, let alone a good or great one. That's a bigger worry than his set-up or the other issues for me, because that one ability tells you that a manager can do an overhaul as and when they please and aren't bound to anything they might nominally set out with.

For as much as I dislike Jose, he could see and fix problems in-game or admit to a poor tactical plan and amend it within 30min of kick off if he felt it was a road to ruin, likewise, he would act and react with the flow of the game and constantly have his finger on the pulse. We have none of that now. It's tragic to watch us formulaically bumble through games. Tuchel was damning with his comments yesterday and it's not going to be a closed secret around managers of his level and above that we're there for the taking on a tactical plane - a really easy, soft opponent. Not taxing at all.

Him hanging Mainoo out to dry up at Newcastle was probably the stopping point for me in terms of believing he has it in him to turn this around. The piece he'd be waiting for arrives and he does nothing to facilitate it.

The one game I've missed all season is the Bournemouth one, but I don't have much desire in watching back a performance where we are drubbed by such a margin, but I do have a curiosity to how the game unfolded in terms of the tactical battle between the two coaches. If it went as I suspect, it'll be yet another nail, so it's probably for the best I don't watch.

 

[SirAF]

For as much as I dislike Jose, he could see and fix problems in-game or admit to a poor tactical plan and amend it within 30min of kick off if he felt it was a road to ruin, likewise, he would act and react with the flow of the game and constantly have his finger on the pulse. We have none of that now. It's tragic to watch us formulaically bumble through games. Tuchel was damning with his comments yesterday and it's not going to be a closed secret around managers of his level and above that we're there for the taking on a tactical plane - a really easy, soft opponent. Not taxing at all.

Exactly right. I still have fond memories of Mourinho reacting to a goal by, not celebrating, but running straight to a sub to prep him tactically.

 

[JPRouve]

I cannot abide by poor in-game management as it's a real hallmark of the best managers without fail, and ten Hag looks absolutely barren in that department, which has completely shocked me as he came with the reputation of being a keen analyst of the game to the micro detail, and yet, as time has gone by, he's been outcoached by anyone with a competent team, let alone a good or great one. That's a bigger worry than his set-up or the other issues for me, because that one ability tells you that a manager can do an overhaul as and when they please and aren't bound to anything they might nominally set out with.

For as much as I dislike Jose, he could see and fix problems in-game or admit to a poor tactical plan and amend it within 30min of kick off if he felt it was a road to ruin, likewise, he would act and react with the flow of the game and constantly have his finger on the pulse. We have none of that now. It's tragic to watch us formulaically bumble through games. Tuchel was damning with his comments yesterday and it's not going to be a closed secret around managers of his level and above that we're there for the taking on a tactical plane - a really easy, soft opponent. Not taxing at all.

Him hanging Mainoo out to dry up at Newcastle was probably the stopping point for me in terms of believing he has it in him to turn this around. The piece he'd be waiting for arrives and he does nothing to facilitate it.

The one game I've missed all season is the Bournemouth one, but I don't have much desire in watching back a performance where we are drubbed by such a margin, but I do have a curiosity to how the game unfolded in terms of the tactical battle between the two coaches. If it went as I suspect, it'll be yet another nail, so it's probably for the best I don't watch.

I think that you are right but I have a big issue with the set up because I don't understand it, I don't understand the purpose, I don't understand how it is linked to our players qualities and flaws. And I just don't understand it from a philosophical standpoint. I think that he is inspired by Fernando Diniz positionless system but I don't understand that system and I don't think ETH understand it either.

 

[JPRouve]

Exactly right. I still have fond memories of Mourinho reacting to a goal by, not celebrating, but running straight to a sub to prep him tactically.

One of my favorite game was a CL knockout game between Mourinho and Simeone, from the 15th minute to the last both kept changing their team organization. Most people seemed to dislike it but I was mesmerized by the ability of the players to just switch which was the demonstration of both coaches own abilities.

 

[Skills]

It should be disconcerting that there are so many things he has been dire at that there doesn't have to be universal agreement on any one point for him to be in sackable offence territory:

- Cannot set up an attack
- Cannot set up a midfield
- Cannot set up a defence
- Cannot manage in-game
- Does not make timely subs
- Rarely makes impactful decisions
- Has wedded himself to a system we are incapable of playing
- Has fallen out with numerous players *
- Has a totally confusing policy with the youngsters
- Sticks to underperforming players for so many games past due that morale of others is bound to be affected
- Cannot win away against any team that has anything about them (correlates with top 8/9)
- Is frequently battered by multiple goal defecits
- the 7-0 (this is so bad and infamous that you can put in "the 7-0" and Google refers you to the game)
- Spent a fortune on so many poor and/or undercooked players**
- Has had complete reliance on a sole goalscorer (last season) and is lost at sea this season due to the single point failure issue
- Constantly sets his #6 up for failure. (Casemiro became a lazy out on here when it was obvious that the tactical setup had him flailing; Amrabat is left with too much to do by himself and Mainoo was essentially fed to the wolves vs Newcastle's henchmen)
- Plays favourites (as much as it might be said all managers do this, the extent to which he sticks by some players and tosses others is bound to unsettle and demoralise the squad)

* the whys and wherefores can be up for discussion
** the blame for this lays on more shoulders than his

I like to be objective as a poster, but there are no redeeming qualities to the management of this season from the very start of the preseason. Alarm bells were ringing for so many of us that it wasn't funny and the product bought to the games proper has been even worse than the worst the preseason imagination could muster. There can't be a soul on here who thought we'd be where we were by November, let alone December.

If you are going to stick by or believe in what a manager is doing, there has to be some aspects to the work being done that can be honed in on as shining beacons that once the chaff is removed from will really come to the fore. What aspect of anything ten Hag is doing points towards that?
As time goes by doubt is compounding because he does not show any capacity to change, adapt, learn or even identify gaping, fundamental issues, and worse still - if he is aware of the issues, he is being so inflexible and stubborn that the capacity to fix it appears to be beyond his remit. We've now reached the point where his second season contests as our worst post-Fergie, inclusive of Moyes and Ralf. Results wise, that wouldn't be so bad if something genial and progressive was being concocted, instead, we're looking more lost and deflated, and him more than out of ideas as the season unfolds.

There's not long to go now until his position should be untenable. It's a shame because he comes across as a likeable fellow, but by now, not one you hang your hat on in belief he can turn things around. From July until now, it's been an unmitigated disaster of a season and he is more accountable for that than the players, which is damning.

Good post. Rare occasion that we're in agreement in the last year or so.

 

[dubplate warrior]

Without a doubt

Agreed. It doesn't matter how good our defence and midfield is (which it isn't), our forwards are mid table players.

 

[Skills]

I cannot abide by poor in-game management as it's a real hallmark of the best managers without fail, and ten Hag looks absolutely barren in that department, which has completely shocked me as he came with the reputation of being a keen analyst of the game to the micro detail, and yet, as time has gone by, he's been outcoached by anyone with a competent team, let alone a good or great one. That's a bigger worry than his set-up or the other issues for me, because that one ability tells you that a manager can do an overhaul as and when they please and aren't bound to anything they might nominally set out with.

For as much as I dislike Jose, he could see and fix problems in-game or admit to a poor tactical plan and amend it within 30min of kick off if he felt it was a road to ruin, likewise, he would act and react with the flow of the game and constantly have his finger on the pulse. We have none of that now. It's tragic to watch us formulaically bumble through games. Tuchel was damning with his comments yesterday and it's not going to be a closed secret around managers of his level and above that we're there for the taking on a tactical plane - a really easy, soft opponent. Not taxing at all.

Him hanging Mainoo out to dry up at Newcastle was probably the stopping point for me in terms of believing he has it in him to turn this around. The piece he'd be waiting for arrives and he does nothing to facilitate it.

The one game I've missed all season is the Bournemouth one, but I don't have much desire in watching back a performance where we are drubbed by such a margin, but I do have a curiosity to how the game unfolded in terms of the tactical battle between the two coaches. If it went as I suspect, it'll be yet another nail, so it's probably for the best I don't watch.

I actually think his football IQ is quite low (at least for the level we're talking about). The Arsenal game at the Emirates last season was the first time, I thought that. With Casemiro missing, through sheers guts and determination we were somehow still in that game, but he refused to do anything at all to help the team while they were desperately hanging on for a result. Nothing at all - all the momentum was with Arsenal, and the winner just felt inevitable yet he refused to do anything at all to swing things our way.

He made 2 subs that game - one of them was in the 90th minute, after Arsenal had scored the winner. Then the 7-0 just confirmed it. You have to be especially bad not knowing how to shut up shop in that game after it got to 3.

He can't seem to tell what the game or the team needs in different situations.

 

[saivet]

Yes for all of Emery’s faults during his time with us, he brought in Martinelli and Saliba, and gave Saka his first team start.

I know he never had Saliba at the club (he was just on loan) and I can't remember if he played Martinelli but I doubt Emery had any involvement with either of those signings.

 

[FujiVice]

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[Glorio]

Went to sack last week for the first time, flip flopped but back to sack. For 2 main reasons:

Firstly, the Scott McTominay gamble with a resulting wide open midfield reeks of desperation and an inability to learn, rather than a long term development plan.

Secondly, he may be trying hard to temper expectations, but when he comes out of games like last night saying we played VERY well (and all the other times he's said it this season when we've nabbed a dodgy win), I wonder whether deep down his standards aren't all that high.

 

[711]

I cannot abide by poor in-game management as it's a real hallmark of the best managers without fail, and ten Hag looks absolutely barren in that department, which has completely shocked me as he came with the reputation of being a keen analyst of the game to the micro detail, and yet, as time has gone by, he's been outcoached by anyone with a competent team, let alone a good or great one. That's a bigger worry than his set-up or the other issues for me, because that one ability tells you that a manager can do an overhaul as and when they please and aren't bound to anything they might nominally set out with.

For as much as I dislike Jose, he could see and fix problems in-game or admit to a poor tactical plan and amend it within 30min of kick off if he felt it was a road to ruin, likewise, he would act and react with the flow of the game and constantly have his finger on the pulse. We have none of that now. It's tragic to watch us formulaically bumble through games. Tuchel was damning with his comments yesterday and it's not going to be a closed secret around managers of his level and above that we're there for the taking on a tactical plane - a really easy, soft opponent. Not taxing at all.

Him hanging Mainoo out to dry up at Newcastle was probably the stopping point for me in terms of believing he has it in him to turn this around. The piece he'd be waiting for arrives and he does nothing to facilitate it.

The one game I've missed all season is the Bournemouth one, but I don't have much desire in watching back a performance where we are drubbed by such a margin, but I do have a curiosity to how the game unfolded in terms of the tactical battle between the two coaches. If it went as I suspect, it'll be yet another nail, so it's probably for the best I don't watch.

SAF wasn't a nepotist? Yet he installed his brother as chief scout, tried to bully players into signing up to one son when he was an agent, and leant players to the team his other son managed, recalling them summarily when he was sacked. SAF was a great man, and more importantly he was our great man, but also a nepotist. It happens.

 

[Bestofthebest]

In his recent post Gordon Godot said Antony was bought for £50M, (actually it was £85M) but he went on to describe him as “bang average”. However, I think Antony is way off being bang average and his level is probably Championship level at best. Never before have I seen so much money spent on such a mediocre (being generous here) player. It staggers me that anyone tries to defend him and his performances. So left footed and not very good with that one. If ten Haag can’t see that,
or coach him to be a better player, then I’m afraid it is time for him to go.

 

[JPRouve]

SAF wasn't a nepotist? Yet he installed his brother as chief scout, tried to bully players into signing up to one son when he was an agent, and leant players to the team his other son managed, recalling them summarily when he was sacked. SAF was a great man, and more importantly he was our great man, but also a nepotist. It happens.

To be fair his brother was also his representative across Europe and from what I understand he was very competetnt and also liked by other Football executives. The stories about his son were very dubious though.

 

[Fortitude]

I think that you are right but I have a big issue with the set up because I don't understand it, I don't understand the purpose, I don't understand how it is linked to our players qualities and flaws. And I just don't understand it from a philosophical standpoint. I think that he is inspired by Fernando Diniz positionless system but I don't understand that system and I don't think ETH understand it either.

A lot of what we see is predicated upon having superior players who keep mistakes to a bare minimum and are refined to a point that mightn't be realistic for years yet, if at all. An eclectic bunch with superfluous talent to do and switch as the game demands whilst keeping a synergy between them that ensures gaps a shorn in as short a period of time as possible. Borg-like assimilation. Now, if you hand pick an xi from football, you can get that and it will look wholly different to what we see and bring what ten Hag is doing to its conclusion, but we do not have that. We don't have anything like that, and the onus is on him to adapt and understand that these players need to be catered for.

Great coaches shorten the distance passes have to be made to and from if the technical level is low(er), and make the players work angles and for space to be found quickly. Players who aren't technical marvels can quickly weave very intricate passages of play adhering to these principles and over time become very hard to play against. You don't need god tier technicians to play highly technical football, but you will then need elite coaching, which gets these less than optimal players passing, moving, recycling, looking for space, and constantly having the person on the ball with options to play to. I expected such things from this manager over any other that had been here since LVG as most of that is Dutch principle, so why or how is not being followed?

There is no such thing as a perfect system, but what any top level coach does is build upon foundations and branch, with contingencies so that they don't box themselves in, become predictable or have complacency. The level of flux we see at the top of the game is a requirement, and compared to that, our manager looks like he is stuck in concrete boots. It doesn't even matter if the 4-1-4-1 system struggles; what follows it in the loop, what comes contingent, is paramount. Even if he wants to hammer that system home, there has to be branches and go to's; you cannot be static as other coaches will eat you alive, as we're seeing on almost a weekly basis.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

It should be disconcerting that there are so many things he has been dire at that there doesn't have to be universal agreement on any one point for him to be in sackable offence territory:

- Cannot set up an attack
- Cannot set up a midfield
- Cannot set up a defence
- Cannot manage in-game
- Does not make timely subs
- Rarely makes impactful decisions
- Has wedded himself to a system we are incapable of playing
- Has fallen out with numerous players *
- Has a totally confusing policy with the youngsters
- Sticks to underperforming players for so many games past due that morale of others is bound to be affected
- Cannot win away against any team that has anything about them (correlates with top 8/9)
- Is frequently battered by multiple goal defecits
- the 7-0 (this is so bad and infamous that you can put in "the 7-0" and Google refers you to the game)
- Spent a fortune on so many poor and/or undercooked players**
- Has had complete reliance on a sole goalscorer (last season) and is lost at sea this season due to the single point failure issue
- Constantly sets his #6 up for failure. (Casemiro became a lazy out on here when it was obvious that the tactical setup had him flailing; Amrabat is left with too much to do by himself and Mainoo was essentially fed to the wolves vs Newcastle's henchmen)
- Plays favourites (as much as it might be said all managers do this, the extent to which he sticks by some players and tosses others is bound to unsettle and demoralise the squad)

* the whys and wherefores can be up for discussion
** the blame for this lays on more shoulders than his

I like to be objective as a poster, but there are no redeeming qualities to the management of this season from the very start of the preseason. Alarm bells were ringing for so many of us that it wasn't funny and the product bought to the games proper has been even worse than the worst the preseason imagination could muster. There can't be a soul on here who thought we'd be where we were by November, let alone December.

If you are going to stick by or believe in what a manager is doing, there has to be some aspects to the work being done that can be honed in on as shining beacons that once the chaff is removed from will really come to the fore. What aspect of anything ten Hag is doing points towards that?
As time goes by doubt is compounding because he does not show any capacity to change, adapt, learn or even identify gaping, fundamental issues, and worse still - if he is aware of the issues, he is being so inflexible and stubborn that the capacity to fix it appears to be beyond his remit. We've now reached the point where his second season contests as our worst post-Fergie, inclusive of Moyes and Ralf. Results wise, that wouldn't be so bad if something genial and progressive was being concocted, instead, we're looking more lost and deflated, and him more than out of ideas as the season unfolds.

There's not long to go now until his position should be untenable. It's a shame because he comes across as a likeable fellow, but by now, not one you hang your hat on in belief he can turn things around. From July until now, it's been an unmitigated disaster of a season and he is more accountable for that than the players, which is damning.

Yeah? Well that's just like uh, your opinion Man.

Joking, I agree with this and it's shocked me to see all of his issues written up in a clear list. As you say, I like him and he's a likeable fellow, but you don't win friends with salad.

 

[Alex99]

The average PL manager tenure is 2 years. We have not sacked managers in a "short amount of time" relative to everyone else. This is important to understand. We're not a sacking club, we're not impatient. In fact, compared to almost every other big club we're too patient for our own good.

Is our average tenure even 2 years?

Moyes less than 1, LvG exactly 2, Mourinho just shy of 2.5, Ole probably around 2.5 as permanent manager, and Ten Hag is yet to hit 1.5.

The answer isn't sack managers more frequently.

You can't simultaneously recognise the need for any level of rebuild and then expect a manager (especially of the calibre we're likely to attract) to turn it around inside two seasons.

 

[Fortitude]

Exactly right. I still have fond memories of Mourinho reacting to a goal by, not celebrating, but running straight to a sub to prep him tactically.

One of my favorite game was a CL knockout game between Mourinho and Simeone, from the 15th minute to the last both kept changing their team organization. Most people seemed to dislike it but I was mesmerized by the ability of the players to just switch which was the demonstration of both coaches own abilities.

And these whizzes are earning their coin with the amount of amendments and counter strategies they come up with to foil the opposing plan, or continually go about applying their own.

It's not all

Spoiler

There is merit to what good coaches are doing.

 

[Sarni]

I was vehemently ten Hag in well before he got here and was very much on board with most things in the first season, but honestly, I don't think I've seen a manager sabotage himself like this before.

From the moment the next phase began, it's been akin to accelerating into a wall and he's made bad decisions on top of bad to even exacerbate that. He's really shredded confidence with each turn and I don't know what possible positive or constructive thing you can say he's done whilst his negative column has enough against him to fill an A4 page.

More damning than that is if/when he goes, we're left with all those dud signings on massive wages that nobody will touch. For as long as this could go on for (INEOS), he might be fairly labelled our worst post-Fergie manager outright, which is unfathomable from the end of the '22/'23 campaign when all signs pointed upward.

I’m pretty much in the same place. I was super excited about his appointment, very disappointed with his start as he appeared to be so unprepared for the role but again very happy with how he addressed that and got us playing good football and produced results in the end.

I was very much looking forward to this season as I expected us to make another step forward, instead we have reached the depths I had not even been aware we were capable of.

 

[Fortitude]

I actually think his football IQ is quite low (at least for the level we're talking about). The Arsenal game at the Emirates last season was the first time, I thought that. With Casemiro missing, through sheers guts and determination we were somehow still in that game, but he refused to do anything at all to help the team while they were desperately hanging on for a result. Nothing at all - all the momentum was with Arsenal, and the winner just felt inevitable yet he refused to do anything at all to swing things our way.

He made 2 subs that game - one of them was in the 90th minute, after Arsenal had scored the winner. Then the 7-0 just confirmed it. You have to be especially bad not knowing how to shut up shop in that game after it got to 3.

He can't seem to tell what the game or the team needs in different situations.

It's frustrating and disappointing in equal measure and there has to be a feeling amongst players when they're not being given instructions that keep them in games that are getting away from them. There's no need to blag or say things for the sake of them, but a good coach is on top of the game, almost to the point of annoying their players if they're not executing the new instructions to a tee.

We're so passive and pedestrian in this department, and I think he gets outcoached too often by now to not think something's up. It's not just the big teams outfoxing us and taking advantage of what has been presented. There's clearly a bunch of underlying issues to what we're seeing as I can't imagine any coach opts to watch his team get torched as the game intensifies and those nuanced alterations begin to take hold and usually decide the game.

 

[Conor]

IMO one significant factor often overlooked when comparing ETH to Arteta is what they've spent. Not to mention Arteta inherited a worse squad than ETH (we were 10th when he arrived!). Comparing their first 3 transfer windows, Arteta spent £80mil and ETH about £400mil. If we take into account 4 windows for Arteta (as he arrived mid-season), he still spent half (about £200mil) of what ETH has in 3 windows. ETH was heavily backed straight away. We couldn't afford to do that so our squad rebuilding was more gradual and we first had to offload players and restructure our wage bill. As we (very) slowly improved, Arteta was increasingly backed in the transfer market.

And where did Arteta finish in his first 2 seasons?

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah? Well that's just like uh, your opinion Man.

Joking, I agree with this and it's shocked me to see all of his issues written up in a clear list. As you say, I like him and he's a likeable fellow, but you don't win friends with salad.

He looks so exasperated on the touchline. I'm not going to say I feel sorry for him, but I do have the feeling the job's too big for him by now. Too many moving parts that aren't optimised. I think the setup he had at Ajax, which was pretty much flawless, is what he needed here to make a proper go of the gig.

I refuse to believe he's as bad as this second season has made him look, but I also believe the odds he finds himself against are not his gig. He might be a perfectionist, with a very exacting way of doing things, who just isn't going to get anything like that here or any time soon.

 

[Berbaclass]

And replace with whom ? With lot of uncertainty over the ownership the worst thing Glazers can do is sack him and appoint another one. Knowing Glazers they will do exactly that.

Hope for once, they will man up and sort the ownership issues first. As long as we aren't getting relegated, stick to ETH. Once we have a proper structure, make a call.

It would be catastrophic if we sack him now. Will achieve nothing with the amount of players injured.

I’m not advocating for anybody. I think we should keep Erik.

 

[JagUTD]

And where did Arteta finish in his first 2 seasons?

Everyone knew Arteta was going to become a decent manager though so deserved time.

This was actually posted

 

[Fortitude]

I’m pretty much in the same place. I was super excited about his appointment, very disappointed with his start as he appeared to be so unprepared for the role but again very happy with how he addressed that and got us playing good football and produced results in the end.

I was very much looking forward to this season as I expected us to make another step forward, instead we have reached the depths I had not even been aware we were capable of.

If he could draw a line under what has gone on and start afresh with something leaning more toward last season than this, you could see there possibly being light at the end of the tunnel, but there's no feeling that's going to happen, and with the best will, it feels like it's not going to happen either.

 

[JagUTD]

I’m not advocating for anybody. I think we should keep Erik.

Mad guy. Haven't you heard? 12 Gary Neville's.

 

[Hoof the ball]

I believe that we ought not be hasty in regards to any managerial alterations prior to the commencement of the future owners being squarely in charge. With a little too much rope, even the greatest manager can make some poor recruitment choices if the task falls predominantly upon them, which is why, above all, we require the implementation of a new internal structure and some restrictions on ten Hag needing to identify his own targets, and let him focus on coaching an improved squad that is built from the collective minds of the next CEO, DoF, ten Hag himself and the chief scout.

 

[Berbaclass]

Mad guy. Haven't you heard? 12 Gary Neville's.

No

 

[InspiRED]

I think it's way too early to judge things and there is no proper replacement available. One of the major problems is Rashford, who could forsee that coming. You might say Martial shouldn't be in the squad anymore and Onana, Mount and Hojlund were bad transfers. But that's about it. On top you have Martial, Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood not available and injuries. It's hard to see how any manager can do better.
So Bayern bought Sadio Mane last year and it was a big mistake. They adjusted it this year with Kane. Klopp had bad keepers in the beginning, then they bought Karius and thought he is better. But it was a mistake and they adjusted with Allisson. It happens. I think it's clear for everyone that United need offensive skill, maybe a keeper and getting rid of the bad apples, the rest is actually a good team in my opinion. The winter transfer window presents a big opportunity here.
If you get a new coach now, Rashford and maybe even Sancho might perform again, you finish 4th and next year or in two years you have the exact same situation. Also which coach is available and which one would actually come, Nagelsmann for example already turned down Chelsea last year.

I actually reckon a literal computer could have seen it coming, based off his performances over the entirety of his time at the club. He has been the very definition of inconsistent, so sorry but this is tosh

 

[Skills]

I’m pretty much in the same place. I was super excited about his appointment, very disappointed with his start as he appeared to be so unprepared for the role but again very happy with how he addressed that and got us playing good football and produced results in the end.

I was very much looking forward to this season as I expected us to make another step forward, instead we have reached the depths I had not even been aware we were capable of.

I don't know, there were massive red flags last season. This was my season review when everyone else was declaring it the greatest season that we'd ever seen by a manager:

B: won a trophy and top 4. Generally improved the mood around the club, man managed his way through difficult situations well. Seems a good guy and a capable coach. Improved the players at the club - got Rashford back up and firing, and the fullbacks have improved massively. I'd say Bruno's a more rounded footballer too thanks to him.

My issues stem in the fact that I think he's maybe put the club in a massive pickle going forward with some of his transfer business. I can't see any of his signings bar Lisandro playing a starting role when we are ready to win a title on the current trajectory. Antony's just never going to be good enough, and Casemiro and Eriksen are too old if we are to believe everyone's current project timescales. Malacias also not good enough, but who cares at £12m. So inevitably once we plug the gaps we have now (that too because of a reduced transfer budget because of last season's overspend), we'll have to go back and fix the same positions again. Making it a never end cycle.

Secondly, though ultimately we met our target this season for top 4 and a trophy - the way we did it has lot a left to be desired. We haven't fixed our ability to score goals - our goal total is pathetic. Teams with far less up front manage to score more so I don't buy this whole issue being blamed solely down to the lack of a striker. How many did city score last season without one?

The other part of this is some of the capitulations have been jarring. You can forgive one, but getting thrashed by 6 and 7 goals at the Etihad and Anfield in the same fecking season is shocking and displays a lot of tactical naivety. I'd say part of his remit this season should've been to restore a bit of pride in the club, after last season's batterings but somehow we ended up on the end of two that were even worse than that. And the fact that even the return games at OT that we won were just smash and grabs, where we played like minnows at our own home ground (we ended up with less than 30% possession in both games) makes it harder to write them off as freak results.

Overall - I'd say, he's earned to stay on as our manager. There isn't a better option on the market and there's enough promising signs there. But if you're not a little concerned, you're delusional and might be in for the same sort of shock the Solskjaer/Mourinho fan clubs were in for when the results could no longer hide the systemic underlying issues that were always there. Then I'm guessing we'll just go back to blaming it on the players being bad eggs and throwing managers under the bus, rather than recognising there were some signs of this all along.

 

[Lay]

I’m not advocating for anybody. I think we should keep Erik.

Damn right we should. Losing 50% of our games is just character building

 

[InspiRED]

I don't get how are fans become pro or anti. I am pro MUFC, always have been. I have seen some awful stuff over the years. ETH seemed like a sensible appointment, at least compared to some of the awful ones, though slight concern that even Spurs rejected him and he was untested outside Holland. Ajax fans said he wasn't great on youth and only wanted to buy players he knew, guess they were correct there. He may have done better in a proper football structure, but he just doesnt seem to have the tactical insight or flexibility to manage a big team. Other than being a loyal fan, what exactly makes you pro ETH? His judgement on players like Antony is so wrong it makes me question his fundamental grip of top level football.

This is one of the things has made me really turn on the guy. When he bought Antony, I just assumed he knew what he was doing, had some genius insight into the potential of the guy and that it must be therefore worth £85m. Having an extremely large sample size to now calculate Antony's actual footballing value, you have to reach the conclusion that ETH hasn't got a fecking clue. The fact he wanted him as a player just because he already had a bond or something, despite the player not being good enough, is pretty feckin irritating.