erikcred
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Won't make a difference.Game. Set. Match.
Someone ‘like’ this post.
Won't make a difference.Game. Set. Match.
Someone ‘like’ this post.
Didn’t.Won't make a difference.
I think the hesitance was implied at being the strained relationship at that point, with us having tried to sign most of their players and even poach transfer targets of theirs. According to other articles he was a huge factor in the Antony transfer.Im getting sick and tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to bother after this post. An element of control is not total control. That should be obvious.
And to @JPRouve whilst accepting the targets should be in sync with Ten Hag, the concept of a shadow squad should still be in existence for the coach to assess. The article states they could offer CB alternatives but they had nothing for the winger option despite ten hags own hesitance to go back to Ajax. Same goes for other areas of the pitch. That is outright abnormal.
Kinda did. For someone who will not give in, no matter how much his points are disproved, he kinda ran up the white flag with the ‘ol “this is my last response” line.Didn’t.
Martinez, played for him.Im getting sick and tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to bother after this post. An element of control is not total control. That should be obvious.
It's an interesting interpretation of that summer especially when The Athletic and Whitwell also wrote this:Im getting sick and tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to bother after this post. An element of control is not total control. That should be obvious.
And to @JPRouve whilst accepting the targets should be in sync with Ten Hag, the concept of a shadow squad should still be in existence for the coach to assess. The article states they could offer CB alternatives but they had nothing for the winger option despite ten hags own hesitance to go back to Ajax. Same goes for other areas of the pitch. That is outright abnormal.
The Athletic reported on Thursday that United had revived their interest in Antony but had seen an offer of €80million (£67.6million) rejected on Wednesday.
United are also considering a move for PSV Eindhoven’s Cody Gakpo as an alternative to a deal for Antony.
Also this; The Athletic reports on Pulisic:It's an interesting interpretation of that summer especially when The Athletic and Whitwell also wrote this:
Yes, another alternative that was likely a ten hag suggestion. However, not a right winger, as Whitwell later clarified in the article and thus unsuitable for the position ten hag actually wants.It's an interesting interpretation of that summer especially when The Athletic and Whitwell also wrote this:
Are you deliberately ignoring the bit that says "I don't want to be the sole ruler, I stand for cooperation..."?Erik ten Hag has been confirmed as the new Manchester United manager but is seeing out the season at Ajax.
Ten Hag has given an interview to the Dutch press, where he said that he insisted on total control over United’s transfers.
“I set requirements in advance about how I want to work,” he said.
“If they aren’t granted, I won’t do it. I am ultimately responsible and accounted for the results.
“I don’t want to be the sole ruler, I stand for cooperation, but control in transfers is a condition for me.”
The DoF has the same veto as he does. Which basically means he has no more control than Murtough, but the latter has absolutely no clue on which alternative to go for outside of Ten Hag's suggestions, as also implied by the Athletic. The one area we gave suggestions for someone else outside of Ten Hag's known quantities was at CB in summer one and at striker in summer 2. And for both positions ten hags choice look better than what was suggested to him (Pau was one suggestion over Licha, Goncalo Ramos was a suggestion over Hojlund).Martinez, played for him.
Antony played for him.
Onana played for him.
Amrabat played for him.
Malacia was known to Ten Hag having played vs his Ajax side
We tried to sign De Jong who played for him. Only didn't because he didn't want to move.
That's control of transfers. Who else at the club would have said "Lets sign a ton of players that have played for you previously or in the Dutch league."?
..Signed Weghorst (Dutch), would have signed Arnautovic (history with ETH and Mclaren).Martinez, played for him.
Antony played for him.
Onana played for him.
Amrabat played for him.
Malacia was known to Ten Hag having played vs his Ajax side
We tried to sign De Jong who played for him. Only didn't because he didn't want to move.
That's control of transfers. Who else at the club would have said "Lets sign a ton of players that have played for you previously or in the Dutch league."?
Antony is also unsuitable to the position Ten Hag wants. But most importantly, it's highly unlikely that you will have more than one player available that plays in particular position and in a specific role. I don't know if you are being naive and thinks that clubs have lists of identical players ready to be transferred or if you are just moving the goalposts at every opportunity.Yes, another alternative that was likely a ten hag suggestion. However, not a right winger, as Whitwell later clarified in the article and thus unsuitable for the position ten hag actually wants.
Well Ten Hag wanted a right winger and Antony is a right winger so I'm going to assume safely that he was more of a suitable pick than Gakpo.Antony is also unsuitable to the position Ten Hag wants. But most importantly, it's highly unlikely that you will have more than one player available that plays in particular position and in a specific role. I don't know if you are being naive and thinks that clubs have lists of identical players ready to be transferred or if you are just moving the goalposts at every opportunity.
So you are saying that Antony wasn't his favored option?Well Ten Hag wanted a right winger and Antony is a right winger so I'm going to assume safely that he was more of a suitable pick than Gakpo.
My point is clear, clubs should be able to present their own targets to a manager and they should be agreed upon mutually. The club has failed to provide alternatives in various positions and not just that, the budgetary sign-off for Antony was made at board level and Antony was unanimously agreed upon in a structure where there is joint control, not sole control. But the entirety of the blame has been rest upon the manager.
Antony is one transfer example of why the structure is bad. The Athletic actually caveats that Ten Hag himself was hesitant to go back to Ajax for players, and yet that's where they landed. Now, I hope it's not "naieve" to ponder why that's the case, and why we chronically feck up transfers over the last two decades.
Quoting that article.So you are saying that Antony wasn't his favored option?
Im saying he was hesitant to turn to Ajax, there were no viable alternatives presented by the club, and the decision was then made to go balls deep for him, with budgetary sign-off ratified above him, as reported.So you are saying that Antony wasn't his favored option?
Have you considered the idea that maybe the club tabled options and the manager chose to go with his favored option?Im saying he was hesitant to turn to Ajax, there were no viable alternatives presented by the club, and the decision was then made to go balls deep for him, with budgetary sign-off ratified above him, as reported.
A club that can't table their own option for a right winger despite having a global database of scouts has a serious structural problem. You could argue Arnold drew the wrong conclusions in sacking Bout and Lawler and keeping Murtough for example.
https://www.unitedinfocus.com/news/ten-hag-says-he-insisted-on-total-control-of-united-transfers/Erik ten Hag has been confirmed as the new Manchester United manager but is seeing out the season at Ajax.
Ten Hag has given an interview to the Dutch press, where he said that he insisted on total control over United’s transfers.
“I set requirements in advance about how I want to work,” he said.
“If they aren’t granted, I won’t do it. I am ultimately responsible and accounted for the results.
“I don’t want to be the sole ruler, I stand for cooperation, but control in transfers is a condition for me.”
Again, he didn't ask for TOTAL control.https://www.unitedinfocus.com/news/ten-hag-says-he-insisted-on-total-control-of-united-transfers/
Here's the source for people.
I would say it's unlikely based on what is reported :Have you considered the idea that maybe the club tabled options and the manager chose to go with his favored option?
I want him gone.If ETH was in charge of that Liverpool squad today, City dominate them like they dominated us.
The mind boggles why people defend him so much. You'd think he was a SAF regen.
I believe the target was specifically a left footer.Why is the crux of your argument "there were no viable alternatives presented by the club"
when there are reports of United being in for a right-winger that predate Ten Hag's appointment, there are also reports of us looking/wanting Gakpo (which you somehow out of the blue said "he was likely a Ten Hag suggestion"), and there are also reports of us being in for Pulisic?
doesn't all that debunk the whole "no viable alternatives presented by the club"?
I don't know where that is coming from - sources would be appreciated. Regardless, it doesn't address what I'm saying.I believe the target was specifically a left footer.
Read the article in full. Murtough didn't initially have a dossier of targets, he only recently has now.I don't know where that is coming from - sources would be appreciated. Regardless, it doesn't address what I'm saying.
The crux of the argument being presented is that the club failed to present alternatives to/for Antony - when there are multiple sources (including the ones being used to validate Antony) linking us with other wide players. Doesn't that debunk the no alternatives for Antony, thing? Am I supposed to believe that the same Manchester United that's reported to have multiple dossiers on/for targets (again this is coming from the same sources used to validate the Antony links), somehow didn't present/suggest anyone else, despite being reported as exploring deals for other players in the same position?
Couldn't it just be the more simple explanation that the manager agreed/insisted on Antony - especially as The Athletic reported the manager was "eager" to sign him - and the club acquiesced, rather than the club didn't present alternatives?
It’s not really comparable. Liverpool had their left back healthy, we did not. They merely have some players out while we are dealing with the worst injury crisis in history of sports.If ETH was in charge of that Liverpool squad today, City dominate them like they dominated us.
The mind boggles why people defend him so much. You'd think he was a SAF regen.
Some would say that too.It’s not really comparable. Liverpool had their left back healthy, we did not. They merely have some players out while we are dealing with the worst injury crisis in history of sports.
Still doesn't change the fact that we're scoring about even in terms of points-per-game (1.678) with the Moyes season and the season LvG got sacked. We've bad, let's not dance around it. Very close to the likes of Luton town and Fulham in terms of league goals scored.Tweet
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You do this thing where you selectively reply to some things and turn blind to everything else that goes directly against your positions - so I'll try to do this in a manner that hopefully makes it easy for all:Read the article in full. Murtough didn't initially have a dossier of targets, he only recently has now.
Article states ten hag was actually heaitant to go to Ajax for the forward options but Antony was the universally agreed one.
Also Gakpo in his own interviews has stated he has had close conversations with the manager who knew him well. It's quite unlikely that Gakpo was a club alternative and more likely ten hags alternative. I don't think there was an actual solution for the right wing put forward by the club, as explained in the posts above with the right article quotes.
Now, again - with all of the above taken into consideration - couldn't it just be the more simple explanation that the manager agreed/insisted on Antony - especially as The Athletic reported the manager was "eager" to sign him - and the club acquiesced, rather than the club didn't present alternatives? They also say he pushed for a swift reunion with Antony, and that his views carry decisive weight.1. "Among the first things Erik ten Hag did once in the building at Manchester United was gather together the main scouts to go through his idea for players."
2. "United have given Ten Hag a leading voice on transfers"
3. "Behind Ten Hag is a recruitment team that has seen significant change itself in the last year while at the same time using a system that has been in place for several seasons."
4. "a centralised database of hundreds of players that collates information and opinion from a global army of 140 scouts. From that pool, recommendations are made in committee meetings, with either Ten Hag or the recruitment team able to veto potential signings."
5. "October 2021 saw Dominic Jordan appointed as United’s first director of data science - United are adamant his involvement adds an essential layer of empirical scrutiny."
6. "Regulars at these meetings included Ten Hag, Murtough and Brown, as well as technical director Darren Fletcher, assistant manager Steve McClaren, deputy football director Andy O’Boyle and interim transfer negotiator Tom Keane, plus senior scouts Simon Wells, Mick Court and Jose Mayorga."
7. "It was a fairly fresh team deliberating the pros and cons of targets."
8." Antony was on United’s list, alongside two other right-wingers, before his Ajax boss Ten Hag was hired. Lawlor and Bout are said to have advised against signing the Brazil international for a significant fee "
9. "Ten Hag’s view carries significant, perhaps decisive, weight"
10. "with Ten Hag pushing for a swift reunion with the Brazilian winger, United went back in and eventually agreed a deal"
11. "Erik ten Hag was eager to be reunited with his former Ajax player and Antony "
Addendum - Pulisic
Addendum 2 - Pulisic
There is no hatred towards him from me and want us to beat the scousers next Sunday. I just can't trust a guy who suffered one of the worst defeats in our history. That's all it comes down to from my personal point of view. I will agree with his supporters on here about not appointing Potter/Southgate though. Just praying that INEOS can see candidates for our next coach outside of those two.Ten Hag has proven to be a competent coach not only at Ajax, for fecks sake. He did plenty of amazing stuff here. Incredible how it took a few months to get fans turn on him so hardcore.
Yes, he made mistakes and criticism is often justified, but reading this thread is ridiculous experience. Many people are willing to deny every single positive he has brought to the club, just because they are mad. Incredible stuff.
Fingers crossed we beat Liverpool, can't wait to see what hatred will be spilled then.
That's not true at all. We had amazing squad under Glazers with SAF in charge, Liverpool had completely different level of squads under same owner and different managers.I think if you have shit owners, you're likely to develop a shit squad irrespective of the manager.
Superclub I'd agree with but I can see him do very well with any of the clubs I mentioned. I think that will happen and we can revisit this.Was thinking superclub, but yeah he’ll struggle with some of those you’ve listed
I do not disagree at all. But my point is he still has Allison, VVD, TAA, Robertson, Salah, Jota and Diaz. These players can carry a relatively weaker team on any given day. At the same time that's also where I credit Klopp cuz he has gotten the rest of the squad which is being rebuilt to perform better than sum of the parts.They built a brilliant squad and that squad also got old and has gaps and needed a rebuild now. It's far from a perfect squad now. The only answer to his question is your first point. Klopp is a brilliant manager and knows how to coach his system and find a proper balance to make it work even if they have injuries.
A big part of a managers job is making things work even if you have injuries, finding the best balance with what you have unavailable. If Ten Hag is useless at that, then whats the point in him? If he can only make his starting 11 work (which so far he can't even get that going to a high level), then he's never going to succeed as a manager at a big club. At the end of the day, if people are using excuses for a manager, then that manager is in fact just failing at what he should be doing.
I won't criticize him for the fee, but him pushing for Antony after managing him for multiple years was outrageously bad.I want him gone.
I also want this endless, ridiculous transfer debate to end, because it's far more pertinent that our manager has persisted with a tactical setup that has long since been proven ill-suited to the players at his disposal, than whether he was the one signing off on the best part of £90 million for Antony.
I don't know. When they came back to him with what they agreed to pay for Antony and what a big fraction of his budget it was, he should've gone "You wot, mate?" and vetoed it.I won't criticize him for the fee, but him pushing for Antony after managing him for multiple years was outrageously bad.
Lad i would promote ya immediately if I could.Erik ten Hag has been confirmed as the new Manchester United manager but is seeing out the season at Ajax.
Ten Hag has given an interview to the Dutch press, where he said that he insisted on total control over United’s transfers.
“I set requirements in advance about how I want to work,” he said.
“If they aren’t granted, I won’t do it. I am ultimately responsible and accounted for the results.
“I don’t want to be the sole ruler, I stand for cooperation, but control in transfers is a condition for me.”
Liverpool XI: Kelleher, Bradley, Quansah, Van Dijk, Gomez. Endo, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Diaz, Nunez, Elliott.I do not disagree at all. But my point is he still has Allison, VVD, TAA, Robertson, Salah, Jota and Diaz. These players can carry a relatively weaker team on any given day. At the same time that's also where I credit Klopp cuz he has gotten the rest of the squad which is being rebuilt to perform better than sum of the parts.
As opposed to ETH, who may not be as good and also has nowhere near the level of performers in his squad as Klopp does (which is still a credit to Klopp but this is year 8 for him) while this is year 2 for ETH in a poorly run club.