Erik ten Hag vs Sancho

[Uniquim]

Surprising that some people say that ETH was unhappy with Sancho's performances. Is this the same ETH who is always happy with the unstoppable Antony?

ETH is the problem. He is not a good manager and he has favorites (who are not good players). He was constantly moving Sancho around, left, right, striker ... while he was always playing Antony. And on top of that, he blamed Sancho in public that he does not train well, and when Sancho replied that he trains well (just defending himself) ... ETH demanded a PUBLIC apology!

Apology for what? Do you really believe that Sancho should apologize for saying that he always tries hard? Who does this? It was like asking Sancho to say in public that he does not train well. It's silly to ask this from a player. It is disrespectful.

ETH created the problem, he is NOT a good manager.

just a comment on the bolded part. He was bought to play om the right side, but was most effective on the left especially when playing with Shaw, so that part isn’t all that strange.

I don’t blame him tor trying to make Sancho work in that attack, with the left side being much more competitive for places.

Still think he could work on the right with a right-back partner he works well with. Sancho needs a little bit more space than he gets in the PL.

mind you just a comment on that bolded part, not me wanting ten Hag to stay on.

 

[Escobar]

So Dortmund are on the cusp of a CL final by way of featuring two players United has rejected. If that isn't a flashing neon sign we need a new manager then nothing is.

Yeah, as if football was so simple

 

[Raoul]

Stats barely show that.



I see Sancho stats this year as pretty much a continuation of his seasons in Old Trafford.

Inter went all the way to the CL final last year and had several former United players too, who were discarded by a different manager.

The Inter players left United 5-6 years ago and have bounced around to many other clubs after leaving, so its not nearly the same in terms of comparing them to a United player on loan in the present.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm basing it on what I've seen of Sancho (primarily). Both players are showing up for Dortmund when it actually counts this late in the season.

So basing it off 1 game, not 2! I'd get it if he were back to his old Dortmund form or an ex player went somewhere and was a pivotal player in the team but just because an ex player (or in this case a loaned player) plays well in a single game doesn't really give you that great an argument.

Eric Dier has been pretty good at CB for Bayern, shall we put in a big bid for him?

 

[Raoul]

So basing it off 1 game, not 2! I'd get it if he were back to his old Dortmund form or an ex player went somewhere and was a pivotal player in the team but just because an ex player (or in this case a loaned player) plays well in a single game doesn't really give you that great an argument.

Eric Dier has been pretty good at CB for Bayern, shall we put in a big bid for him?

I'm sure a few Spurs fans are wondering why he's not with them this year, especially given their late season form.

 

[Teja]

Stats barely show that.

Sancho's still better marginally https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id2=99127249&p2yrfrom=2023-2024

Antony has higher xG / 90 but Sancho does better at xA, carries, progressive passing etc. It's hard to say because you're comparing Bundesliga performances to the PL and I think you can generally statpad a bit in the Bundesliga.

For United, they look basically identical. https://fbref.com/tiny/z83rp

 

[Shinjch]

I don''t think ETH has the credibility among the players to act as a disciplinarian. The alleged problem Sancho had in training apparently doesn't seem to be an issue in Dortmund, which leads me to believe it all comes back to ETH's handling of the situation.

I don't think it can be seen as all being the manager's fault when he has a long history of training and discipline problems from his first spell at Dortmund too -

https://sportbild.bild.de/fussball/...nchester-united-enthuellt-85534382.sport.html

"When Jadon Sancho was at Dortmund, discipline was always a concern, he often came late to training or flew away for 2 to 3 days after a match. The biggest problem, according to BVB bosses, is that Sancho sleeps too little and sits at the console and plays until the early hours of the morning."

 

[Zehner]

But has either even been that good for Dortmund? Sancho certainly hasn't, has Sabitzer? Or are you basing your view off 2 games?

Why do you think he wasn't good for Dortmund? He's been one of if not the best player since his return and one of the first names on the team sheet despite not having played for half a year before. And that's although he was shifted to the right wing and plays in a pretty disjointed team. He was brought in because they severely lack playmaking, ball progression and chance creation and he delivers all that.

 

[Lyng]

One massive difference in the two players is how much Sancho looks for his striker. They lost 4 - 1 to Leipzig but should have been up by 3 before Leipzig even got a goal.
Sancho created some great chances for Fullkrug and scored a beautiful goal himself.
Antony doesn't offer anything for Rasmus.

 

[Zehner]

I don't think it can be seen as all being the manager's fault when he has a long history of training and discipline problems from his first spell at Dortmund too -

https://sportbild.bild.de/fussball/...nchester-united-enthuellt-85534382.sport.html

Sigh. Here's what Dortmund boss Watzke has to say about this:

The return of Jadon Sancho to Borussia Dortmund has been the most dazzling Bundesliga transfer this winter so far. However, the Englishman's comeback to Dortmund has been viewed critically at times - also due to potential disciplinary issues of the attacking player. Hans-Joachim Watzke has defended Sancho against this accusation. "Jadon doesn't have any disciplinary issues at all, I don't know who keeps saying that," said the managing director of the Westfalens before the Bundesliga match against Darmstadt 98 (3-0) on Saturday evening on Sky. Sancho even set up the goal for the interim 2-0 lead.

Watzke continued: "Jadon only has one problem, he occasionally arrives late. He only has one watch, it's not very pronounced." The 23-year-old is "a very nice guy, but occasionally he arrived late. But you have to deal with that."

And his former coach Rangnick:

Ralf Rangnick, however, has had quite different experiences with Sancho. "In the six months that I had him, there wasn't a single disciplinary issue," says the current coach of the Austrian national team. "On the contrary. He is a calm and pleasant guy."

Yes, the Rangnick who is usually completely unfiltered.

The "disciplinary issues" he had at Dortmund seemed almost negligible and at least in the sixth month under Rangnick, there were none either.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Why do you think he wasn't good for Dortmund? He's been one of if not the best player since his return and one of the first names on the team sheet despite not having played for half a year before. And that's although he was shifted to the right wing and plays in a pretty disjointed team. He was brought in because they severely lack playmaking, ball progression and chance creation and he delivers all that.

Because every Dortmund fan I have spoken to have been a bit 'meh' on him. they all seem keen on Maatsen though. I don't know if they have a redcafe equivalent but I'd bet the sentiment isn't clamouring for his return unless it's on the cheap or another loan.

 

[Hammondo]

Sigh. Here's what Dortmund boss Watzke has to say about this:




And his former coach Rangnick:



Yes, the Rangnick who is usually completely unfiltered.

The "disciplinary issues" he had at Dortmund seemed almost negligible and at least in the sixth month under Rangnick, there were none either.

People like their bullshit narratives though, so I would copy and paste this ready.

 

[Zehner]

Because every Dortmund fan I have spoken to have been a bit 'meh' on him. they all seem keen on Maatsen though. I don't know if they have a redcafe equivalent but I'd bet the sentiment isn't clamouring for his return unless it's on the cheap or another loan.

Don't know who you have been speaking to but the Dortmund fans I know now root for United because they hope Ten Hag stays, increasing the chances to sign Sancho. They jokingly say he shouldn't play too well because they couldn't afford him anymore.

 

[Teja]

Sigh. Here's what Dortmund boss Watzke has to say about this:

Arriving late seems to correlate quite strongly to staying up late playing FIFA. Generally sleep is quite important for recovery and it's well within the club's / manager's rights to demand that the players sleep well and show up on time.

Anyway, it was being treated as a minor disciplinary issue until he chose to act like a baby and blow it up himself.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Don't know who you have been speaking to but the Dortmund fans I know now root for United because they hope Ten Hag stays, increasing the chances to sign Sancho. They jokingly say he shouldn't play too well because they couldn't afford him anymore.

They don't need to joke about that..

 

[roonster09]

Arriving late seems to correlate quite strongly to staying up late playing FIFA. Generally sleep is quite important for recovery and it's well within the club's / manager's rights to demand that the players sleep well and show up on time.

Anyway, it was being treated as a minor disciplinary issue until he chose to act like a baby and blow it up himself.

Matic also said Sancho and Pogba turned up late quite often.

He also revealed there was a punctuality problem in the dressing room and that he helped to develop a fine system.

"At Chelsea, players acted professionally, they were punctual and were never late for training but at United it happened almost every day," Matic said.


"Among the players who would always be late were Paul Pogba and Jadon Sancho and a couple of other players. The rest of us who were always on time were angry so we decided to form a kind of an internal disciplinary committee with me serving as its president.

Anyways I dont mind him turning up late, there should be leaders to deal with that. As long as he plays well, all is forgiven. That's his biggest challenge, consistently average to poor.

 

[roseguy64]

I have thought a few times recently that him being away from Rashford might have something to do with it.

From what I see of Rashford, he looks like a seriously moody/negative individual and if so, that can rub off on others who are close to them.

Full disclosure:

I would like to see Rashford sold abroad, Sancho potentially given another chance and ETH, I'm on the fence...

I think ETH would do a lot better with the new structure above him and a clear out of a few players that's seems like its going to happen regardless of the manager.

People come out with the weirdest things

 

[90 + 5min]

One good game and people are all over tenHag. Our fans really love to have a go at managers despite our players lacking discipline through the years. People seems to think it is ok that our players behave non professional.

 

[afrocentricity]

Any 3 players could come out and question the manager (including Bruno, Mainoo, Dalot, Nacho...) and you'd have posters telling us to sell them all for peanuts ......


BaCK tHE manAGer!

 

[Eriku]

That's obviously true but still scoring 44 goals in 45 matches (29 goals in 26 league matches) is hardly easy and not something of a finished player. The second top striker in the league is Mitrovic at 22 goals, a very good player. Malcom has scored 13 goals, Mane 12, Benzema 9, Mahrez 10 etc, so hardly a very easy league to score. I am pretty sure that Weghorst and Hojlund wouldn't be scoring at anywhere that rate there.

Sure, Ronaldo’s not totally washed up. But to attribute his uptick in fortunes to not being around Ten Hag rather than the quality of his opponents being a far cry from those he faced in the PL is a bit silly IMO.

 

[Red00012]

So Dortmund are on the cusp of a CL final by way of featuring two players United has rejected. If that isn't a flashing neon sign we need a new manager then nothing is.

Ya because it’s as simple as that

 

[Eriku]

He didn't. He just stood his ground when he disagreed with the manager. Suspending him from the squad was EtH's reaction to that (and I don't disagree with that), but Sancho did not go on strike, he went on with individual training as ordered.

Hah, he basically called ten Hag a liar, and said he was being made into a scapegoat. It was a drama queen reaction for a fairly innocuous line.

 

[clarkydaz]

Hah, he basically called ten Hag a liar, and said he was being made into a scapegoat. It was a drama queen reaction for a fairly innocuous line.

And then Matic came out and namechecked him for poor timekeeping

 

[Eriku]

And then Matic came out and namechecked him for poor timekeeping

Yup. People defending Sancho have low expectations of an incredibly well-paid so-called professional.

The fact that he’d rather be totally out of the squad than show some humility is telling. Garnacho and Rashford (for all our disappointment) showed how you handle it when you fall short of expectation and get called out for it.

 

[frostbite]

Hah, he basically called ten Hag a liar, and said he was being made into a scapegoat. It was a drama queen reaction for a fairly innocuous line.

This is a lie. He did not call Teg Hag anything. He only defended himself that he is training well.

People can have differing opinions for the same thing. Sancho may believe he is trying hard, ETH may believe that he is not trying hard.

Or, another example, ETH may believe that Antony is unstoppable, but you may believe that Antony is useless.

 

[arthurka]

I don't give a shit about how he plays for BVB because he shouldn't be arriving back to United. Hope he does well so we can get a decent amount for his services.

 

[Pickle85]

Any 3 players could come out and question the manager (including Bruno, Mainoo, Dalot, Nacho...) and you'd have posters telling us to sell them all for peanuts ......


BaCK tHE manAGer!

Not a big fan of this gif tbh. Can we delete?

 

[Eriku]

This is a lie. He did not call Teg Hag anything. He only defended himself that he is training well.

People can have differing opinions for the same thing. Sancho may believe he is trying hard, ETH may believe that he is not trying hard.

Or, another example, ETH may believe that Antony is unstoppable, but you may believe that Antony is useless.

Difference of opinion is one thing, saying "I will not allow people to say things that are completely untrue" is another. He essentially called him a liar.

 

[frostbite]

Difference of opinion is one thing, saying "I will not allow people to say things that are completely untrue" is another. He essentially called him a liar.

This was about the "people of the internet", who actually said a lot of things about him that were not true. Sancho had the right to defend himself.

 

[Eriku]

This was about the "people of the internet", who actually said a lot of things about him that were not true. Sancho had the right to defend himself.

Nope. This is what Ten Hag wanted him to apologize for.

Jadon Sancho is likely to leave Manchester United in January due to his refusal to apologise to Erik ten Hag for questioning the Dutchman’s explanation for why he was left out of September’s loss at Arsenal.
After United were defeated 3-1 at the Emirates Stadium, Ten Hag stated Sancho had not travelled to London because he had not trained well enough. This led to the forward claiming on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Ten Hag’s explanation was “completely untrue”, pinning the statement to his account. Sancho removed the statement nine days later but remains suspended after failing to retract his criticism of United’s manager.

That’s from a Jamie Jackson article in the Guardian.

The Athletic said the same:

After the loss at Arsenal, Ten Hag had said of Sancho: “On his performance in training, we didn’t select him. You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United.”


Sancho snapped back later that evening on social media, writing that any suggestions his training was not up to standard were “completely untrue”. He claimed he had been made a “scapegoat” for a long time.

Such a direct response was viewed within United as Sancho calling Ten Hag a liar, and the only remedy for that would be deleting the post — which happened — and an apology — which did not.

You still want to persist with the claim that I am lying? And if so; what do you think EtH wants an apology for?

 

[frostbite]

Nope. This is what Ten Hag wanted him to apologize for.



That’s from a Jamie Jackson article in the Guardian.

The Athletic said the same:



You still want to persist with the claim that I am lying?

Yes, you were lying when you said "he basically called ten Hag a liar ". He did not call Ten Hag anything. He did not even mention Ten Hag. You are inferring things, but the truth is that Sancho did not call Ten Hag anything.

 

[Eriku]

Yes, you were lying when you said "he basically called ten Hag a liar ". He did not call Ten Hag anything. He did not even mention Ten Hag. You are inferring things, but the truth is that Sancho did not call Ten Hag anything.

What did EtH want an apology for then? And is all media covering it wrong about the causes too?

It is quite clearly implied by him trying to refute claims that he hasn’t trained well, and further cemented by him saying he’s being made a scapegoat. There’s NOTHING indicating that EtH was disciplining him over anything outside of the comments made online.

Get your blinkers off.

 

[frostbite]

What did EtH want an apology for then? And why are sports media in the wrong also?

It is quite clearly implied by him trying to refute claims that he hasn’t trained well, and further cemented by him saying he’s being made a scapegoat. There’s NOTHING indicating that EtH was disciplining him over anything outside of the comments made online.

Get your blinkers off.

ETH is a stubborn, mediocre manager. He knows that he is not good enough. I have met managers like that in real life (not football) and their inferiority complex always creates problems like this. They are disrespectful to subordinates and get offended easily because they have huge ego but low-end capabilities. That's why ETH asked for a PUBLIC apology.

The same thing happened with Ronaldo, that's why Ronaldo got fed up with him and claimed that ETH disrespected him. Ronaldo did not make any such public statements for any of his previous managers, Pirlo, Ole, Rangnick (all of them bad managers, too). Only for ETH. Similar things happened with Varane and Casemiro, but they are more reserved individuals and they did not go public.It is ETH that creates these problems.

 

[Eriku]

ETH is a stubborn, mediocre manager. He knows that he is not good enough. I have met managers like that in real life (not football) and their inferiority complex always creates problems like this. They are disrespectful to subordinates and get offended easily because they have huge ego but low-end capabilities.

The same thing happened with Ronaldo, that's why Ronaldo got fed up with him and claimed that ETH disrespected him. Ronaldo did not make any such public statements for any of his previous managers, Pirlo, Ole, Rangnick (all of them bad managers, too). Only for ETH. Similar things happened with Varane and Casemiro, but they are more reserved individuals and they did not go public.It is ETH that creates these problems.

I’m not a fan of ten Hag, and I want him out. Doesn’t change anything about the facts of what Sancho did and the obvious reason for this stalemate.

 

[marktan]

Sancho is still crap, playing against a PSG with no one tracking back is exactly what made him look good initially at Dortmund - playing in acres of space against farmer defenders.

Sell him for £30m and move on. But we won't, the United circus of not one person having a clue when it comes to footballing talent will continue. Once upon a time we could pluck Nani and Anderson out of thin air, nowadays we pay £80m for wide players that would struggle playing for Burnley

 

[frostbite]

I’m not a fan of ten Hag, and I want him out. Doesn’t change anything about the facts of what Sancho did and the obvious reason for this stalemate.

Yes, but it is not just Sancho. It is Ronaldo, De Gea, Sancho, Varane, Casemiro. (He behaved like shit to De Gea, too, after the team offered him a contract.)

ETH is the problem. In general, I am not against the manager getting rid of players he doesn't want. It happens. But there is a proper, professional, respectful way of doing these things, and then there is ETH's way, which I don't like at all.

 

[frostbite]

I’m not a fan of ten Hag, and I want him out. Doesn’t change anything about the facts of what Sancho did and the obvious reason for this stalemate.

Can you imagine Jim Ratcliffe offering a new contract to Ten Hag, Ten Hag signing the contract, and then Jim calls ETH to his office and tears up the contract? What would this say about Jim's character?

 

[Eriku]

Yes, but it is not just Sancho. It is Ronaldo, De Gea, Sancho, Varane, Casemiro. (He behaved like shit to De Gea, too, after the team offered him a contract.)

ETH is the problem. In general, I am not against the manager getting rid of players he doesn't want. It happens. But there is a proper, professional, respectful way of doing these things, and then there is ETH's way, which I don't like at all.

Can you imagine Jim Ratcliffe offering a new contract to Ten Hag, Ten Hag signing the contract, and then Jim calls ETH to his office and tears up the contract? What would this say about Jim's character?

You are having a completely different discussion here.

This is the last thing I will write on this.

Sancho’s post on the internet was as follows:

Please don't believe everything you read! I will not allow people saying things that is completely untrue.

I have conducted myself in training very well this week. I believe there are other reasons for this matter that I won't go into, I have been a scapegoat for a long time which isn't fair! All I want to do is play football with a smile on my face and contribute to my team

I respect all decisions that are made by the coaching staff, I play with fantastic players and grateful to do so which I know every week is a challenge. I will continue to fight for this badge no matter what!

The bolded starts with him saying he’s conducted himself well in training, which you could argue is a difference of opinion. Him saying that he believes there are other reasons, and that he has been scapegoated for a long time, however, cannot. That is him calling out ten Hag, and saying that ten Hag’s stated reasons were false and that he had other undisclosed reasons for omitting him from the squad. Call that what you want, but it’s not just a fanciful inference to say that this is him making a charge that ten Hag is lying.

These are the facts, and news outlets agree and have characterized it as him hitting back at ten Hag with this post, and some also use the same phrasing as me, saying that it is calling ten Hag a liar.

Any other points you’re bringing up about ten Hag’s handling of this is a response to points I haven’t made, and have nothing to do with what you called me a liar for stating.

If you have any issues with that then your problem is with the English language, and I can’t be any more tediously clear about why I wrote what I wrote.

There’s nothing more for me to say on this point.

 

[Charlie Foley]

I see Sancho stats this year as pretty much a continuation of his seasons in Old Trafford.

And the performances are the same. The PSG game is pretty much an outlier to what he’s been producing since he went back.

I would have been happy seeing Sabitzer stay here last summer, on a free.

 

[simonhch]

Sancho performing well in a high profile game helps his value. That’s great. But he’s been decidedly average since his return to Dortmund, and even if he ends up playing great there, he’s shown he’s not cut out to play in the premier league or at a really big club. Whichever one it is, doesn’t matter. He’s not a United player. He just doesn’t have the required mentality. Decent amount of talent, but doesn’t work hard enough, and doesn’t have any outstanding physical gifts. For him to truly excel at the very highest level consistently, he’d have to work incredibly hard, and nothing about his career so far shows that he is willing or capable of doing that.

We should be getting 50m for him and moving on, because in the BL he can still be a very effective player.