Europe Refugee Crisis

[holyland red]

German national guilt is a powerful weapon.

Is it? What's the reaction for the housing of immigrants in Buchenwald?

 

[Rory 7]

Is it? What's the reaction for the housing of immigrants in Buchenwald?

I've no idea what you are referring to.

 

[holyland red]

I've no idea what you are referring to.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-housing-refugees-in-buchenwald-concentration-camp/

 

[Rory 7]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-housing-refugees-in-buchenwald-concentration-camp/

Interesting. I've know idea what reaction is in Germany to this. I don't see a problem with it, they are putting the barracks to practical use in a crisis. Don't you think the official German state response to the refugee crisis reflects their national guilt at the holocaust?

 

[holyland red]

Interesting. I've know idea what reaction is in Germany to this. I don't see a problem with it, they are putting the barracks to practical use in a crisis. Don't you think the official German state response to the refugee crisis reflects their national guilt at the holocaust?

Not necessarily. If I remember correctly polls carried out in recent years suggest that most Germans do not feel associated with any national guilt. Can't blame them really.

I feel the German response has more to do with its leading EU role.

 

[Rory 7]

Not necessarily. If I remember correctly polls carried out in recent years suggest that most Germans do not feel associated with any national guilt. Can't blame them really.

I feel the German response has more to do with its leading EU role.

I'm not so sure. The scenes of Germans welcoming refugees and cheering them across the border look to me like a people who are desperate to shed their past. And also a people who are acutely aware of a rising far right in their own country.

 

[Cait Sith]

I'm not so sure. The scenes of Germans welcoming refugees and cheering them across the border look to me like a people who are desperate to shed their past. And also a people who are acutely aware of a rising far right in their own country.

Don't know. Realistically it's just a bunch of self-promoting event people whose main goal is to post selfies on Facebook about "welcoming refugees" across the border and feel good about themselves, similar to the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge and other "social media events" these days.

 

[sun_tzu]

I wonder what the new routes will be now Hungary seems to have decided that "none shall pass"
Not sure how Serbia will react at the plans to send people back there either... Though I suspect not with rounds of applause and refugees welcome signs.

 

[Dans]

I'm not so sure. The scenes of Germans welcoming refugees and cheering them across the border look to me like a people who are desperate to shed their past. And also a people who are acutely aware of a rising far right in their own country.

This is what I think too and this was reinforced for me when I spoke to someone recently who suggested that the younger generations often aren't allowed to forget - their grandparents and parents still seem to transmit their guilt down. Real Germans might wish to put their viewpoints forward too though @Balu, @Piratesoup, @Blackwidow, @strongwalker

 

[Balu]

This is what I think too and this was reinforced for me when I spoke to someone recently who suggested that the younger generations often aren't allowed to forget - their grandparents and parents still seem to transmit their guilt down. Real Germans might wish to put their viewpoints forward too though.

I don't think it's as clear cut as some like to describe it. I'd say that the younger generations clearly live without guilt. Even the Germans born shortly after the war, in the late 40's and the 50's don't really feel guilty anymore. Often it's actually quite the opposite with the post-war born generation and there's an annoying arrogance and ignorance there, based on their effort in rebuilding Germany and turning it into such a wealthy state. It's more prevalent in regards to for example the Greek crisis though.

But the past certainly has influenced our society and what view we have on the world. It would be crazy if that wasn't the case and labeling that as guilt seems really wrong to me. It's a bit sad that the sight of many Germans being aware of how lucky they are, that they're born in a rich country and don't have too worry about existential problems is sometimes used as an almost negative thing, one that isn't real and only forced through guilt from the crimes of past generations. I'd argue some poeple, in Germany and in other countries, like to see it that way, so that they have an excuse for not caring.

I personally want to help, did help directly by donating and interacting with refugees here. I haven't thought once about World War II when doing it or about the image of Germany in public. I was lucky enough to visit Syria years ago though, I backpacked a lot in the middle east, in Northern Africa and it influenced my view on the world and actually very often also the view of family and friends I told about my experiences as well. I don't need guilt over something that I only know from stories, history books and documentaries and has absolutely nothing to do with this crisis today to realise what's the right thing to do. And I've never had the impression that I'm the exception.

I certainly don't accept it at all as an excuse for the failure of our government to organise the help for refugees in the best possible way. Just because the majority of Germans want to help and are happy to see refugees coming in, doesn't mean that the politicians were forced to act like they did so far. @PedroMendez made some excellent posts in regards to the failures of Merkel and the government during the refugee crisis. I agree with almost everything he wrote in this thread.

 

[Nobby style]

Saudis Accused of Not Taking Refugees Despite 100k Empty, Air Conditioned Tents

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/ne...-Despite-100K-Empty-Tents--20150913-0022.html

While Europe struggles with the refugee crisis, Saudi Arabia, less than 2,032.5 km from Syria, has been largely unresponsive to the crisis.
Pressure continues to mount on Saudi Arabia to take Syrian refugees after it was revealed that the Middle Eastern country has 100,000 air conditioned tents that could house more than 3 million people, sitting empty.

The 20 square km tent city of Mina is used for five days each year by Hajj pilgrims, and deserted for the rest of the time.

The neatly arranged campsite is made up of eight-by-eight meter fire-proof tents, with kitchen and bathroom facilities . . . (cont)

ميدان رابعه العدويه @Isalmnahaya
#Refugees welcomed by:
Saudi... 0
Kuwait... 0
Qatar... 0
Emirates... 0
Bahrain... 0

Tent city of Mina could house 3 million people

 

[LeChuck]

Saudi Arabia has received approximately 2.5 million Syrian refugees since the start of the conflict and spent $700 million in aid, a statement by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported this weekend.

“The Kingdom of #SaudiArabia does not intend to speak about its efforts to support #Syrianbrothers and sisters, during their distress, as it has, since the beginning of the problem, dealt with the situation from a religious and humane perspective, and did not wish to boast about its efforts or attempt to gain media coverage,” the ministry wrote on Facebook.

Adding that following misleading media reports, the Kingdom has decided it is important to reveal details of the efforts it has taken to help the refugees.

The statement explained that the refugees have “been given the freedom to move about the country and those who wish to remain in Saudi Arabia (some hundreds of thousands) have been given legal residency status like the remaining residents.” This leaves them able to receive free medical care, get jobs, and attend schools and universities. “The public school system has accepted more than 100,000 Syrian students.”

In addition to this, the Kingdom has provided support and care for refugees living in other countries including Jordan and Lebanon, the statement explained. “Efforts included providing them with humanitarian assistance, in coordination with the host governments and with international human aid organisations. Aid was provided, in cash and kind.”

Humanitarian aid provided to Syrians by the Kingdom consisted of food, medical, academic, residential supplies and included the establishment of Saudi clinics in refugee camps, especially at Zaatari Camp in Jordan, the ministry explained.

The statement comes after the Gulf states received international condemnation last week for their lack of action towards the plight of Syrian refugees and their unwillingness to take in those most in need who are instead endangering their lives in search of a better life in Europe

 

[Revan]

^^^

Hopeully it is true, though I wouldn't be sure that is the case.

 

[utdalltheway]

I'm no fan of the Saudis but I see lots of ire being directed at them when this problem is being discussed (offers to build 200 mosques in Europe, etc).
So, which is it? They've not taken any, or 2.5M? That's quite a disconnect.

 

[dustfingers]

Spoiler

“Why don’t Saudi Arabia and Arab Gulf countries host Syrian refugees instead of letting them die in the sea?” some naively ask.
Others maliciously pose this question for the purpose of shifting blame from the Syrian regime, the brutality of which has pushed people to flee and risk dying in the sea.
The Saudi kingdom has been receiving Syrians ever since the Syrian tragedy began. An official I spoke with estimates their number at half million. These Syrians, however, have not been registered as refugees, as Saudi Arabia is not a country neighboring Syria and these people have not arrived as refugees, but have entered via a visit visa.
Saudi Arabia welcomed them over all this time and it did not force them to leave or detain those whose visa expired – however, another country that is supposedly a brotherly country of Syria actually did that. Some Syrians in Saudi Arabia found jobs, others didn’t. The government allowed them to send their children to public schools but this does not mean they are happy. My Syrian friend has seen the occupants of his tiny apartment in Jeddah double; there’s nothing he can do, but be patient.
Saudi Arabia can receive more Syrians, like some European countries and human rights organizations are naively, or maliciously, demanding.
However, Syrians don’t want to go to Saudi Arabia as refugees. Saudi Arabia or other Gulf countries’ building of refugee camps is of no use because Syrians have had enough of living in camps and they want to have a proper life. And as long as we don’t give them their country back, they will continue to travel in search of a country where they can build a future, and Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries cannot provide them with this option.
There’s another Syrian man I know who lives in Saudi Arabia. He plans to immigrate to Europe in any way possible. He hears of his paternal cousin who got a job in Sweden and gained citizenship, like thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalis and other Arab or Muslim people who are miserable in their own countries, plagued as they are by failure, war, and secular, religious and sectarian extremism.
In Saudi Arabia, we don’t easily grant citizenship and that’s also the case in most Gulf countries. This policy is not due to racism or superiority – given that, for example, Saudi Arabia’s citizens consist of all races. The reason is purely economic. Our situation is like that of some European countries, like Hungary and Greece, who don’t want immigrants because their economies cannot contain them. We are not an enormous economic power like Germany who can – or rather, needs – to contain more immigrants yet it’s unwilling because it wants to select them and not receive them in such huge numbers.
Therefore, the reason is purely economic. Our brotherly relations with the Syrian people still prevailed, and we opened our doors to them as much we could. But our economy cannot tolerate hosting refugees who turn into residents.
This is because our market is already saturated with foreign labor, which most of us don’t even need, and this has negatively affected our society and economy. We hesitatingly think of how to resolve this accumulated problem. We are shocked by the number of foreign laborers in our country and by the reality of unemployment among our sons whenever we hold a conference to discuss “foreign labor in Gulf states, its reality and future.”
This latter phrase is the headline of a study by Jassim Hussain published last week by Al-Jazeera. Whoever read this study must have felt worried and realized the threats surrounding the Gulf’s future as it further sinks in the sea of foreign laborers – who will continue to be foreign as long as they live in a society that does not, and cannot resettle them.

Written by Jamal Khashoggi who is a Saudi journalist, columnist, author, and general manager of the upcoming Al Arab News Channel. (has a wikipedia page too) He previously served as a media aide to Prince Turki al Faisal while he was Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States. http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vie...-camp-in-Saudi-Arabia-They-want-a-future.html Here's the original Arabic version http://alhayat.com/Opinion/Jamal-Khashoggi/11119013/أن-تكون-لاجئاً-سورياً-في-السعودية-والخليج

The main issue here is probably do Syrian really want to settle in Saudi or rather move to European country where they have a better lifestyle and better amnesty.

 

[Danny1982]

I'm no fan of the Saudis but I see lots of ire being directed at them when this problem is being discussed (offers to build 200 mosques in Europe, etc).
So, which is it? They've not taken any, or 2.5M? That's quite a disconnect.

Why don’t Saudi Arabia and Arab Gulf countries host Syrian refugees instead of letting them die in the sea?” some naively ask.
Others maliciously pose this question for the purpose of shifting blame from the Syrian regime, the brutality of which has pushed people to flee and risk dying in the sea.
The Saudi kingdom has been receiving Syrians ever since the Syrian tragedy began. An official I spoke with estimates their number at half million. These Syrians, however, have not been registered as refugees, as Saudi Arabia is not a country neighboring Syria and these people have not arrived as refugees, but have entered via a visit visa.
Saudi Arabia welcomed them over all this time and it did not force them to leave or detain those whose visa expired – however, another country that is supposedly a brotherly country of Syria actually did that. Some Syrians in Saudi Arabia found jobs, others didn’t. The government allowed them to send their children to public schools but this does not mean they are happy. My Syrian friend has seen the occupants of his tiny apartment in Jeddah double; there’s nothing he can do, but be patient.
Saudi Arabia can receive more Syrians, like some European countries and human rights organizations are naively, or maliciously, demanding.
However, Syrians don’t want to go to Saudi Arabia as refugees. Saudi Arabia or other Gulf countries’ building of refugee camps is of no use because Syrians have had enough of living in camps and they want to have a proper life. And as long as we don’t give them their country back, they will continue to travel in search of a country where they can build a future, and Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries cannot provide them with this option.
There’s another Syrian man I know who lives in Saudi Arabia. He plans to immigrate to Europe in any way possible. He hears of his paternal cousin who got a job in Sweden and gained citizenship, like thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalis and other Arab or Muslim people who are miserable in their own countries, plagued as they are by failure, war, and secular, religious and sectarian extremism.
In Saudi Arabia, we don’t easily grant citizenship and that’s also the case in most Gulf countries. This policy is not due to racism or superiority – given that, for example, Saudi Arabia’s citizens consist of all races. The reason is purely economic. Our situation is like that of some European countries, like Hungary and Greece, who don’t want immigrants because their economies cannot contain them. We are not an enormous economic power like Germany who can – or rather, needs – to contain more immigrants yet it’s unwilling because it wants to select them and not receive them in such huge numbers.
Therefore, the reason is purely economic. Our brotherly relations with the Syrian people still prevailed, and we opened our doors to them as much we could. But our economy cannot tolerate hosting refugees who turn into residents.
This is because our market is already saturated with foreign labor, which most of us don’t even need, and this has negatively affected our society and economy. We hesitatingly think of how to resolve this accumulated problem. We are shocked by the number of foreign laborers in our country and by the reality of unemployment among our sons whenever we hold a conference to discuss “foreign labor in Gulf states, its reality and future.”
This latter phrase is the headline of a study by Jassim Hussain published last week by Al-Jazeera. Whoever read this study must have felt worried and realized the threats surrounding the Gulf’s future as it further sinks in the sea of foreign laborers – who will continue to be foreign as long as they live in a society that does not, and cannot resettle them.

So there is your answer.

2.5m refugees my a**.

(quoted from @dustfingers 's post)

 

[strongwalker]

This is what I think too and this was reinforced for me when I spoke to someone recently who suggested that the younger generations often aren't allowed to forget - their grandparents and parents still seem to transmit their guilt down. Real Germans might wish to put their viewpoints forward too though @Balu, @Piratesoup, @Blackwidow, @strongwalker

Don't know if "guilt" is the right term for the current generation <55 years. It definitely was true for the older generation that grew up in after-war germany. The Nazi era, the war, the holocaust and its consequences were prominent subjects in education, possibly more so than in other countries. Its immediate "local" effect of after-war germany with the wall was ever-present. In my generation (i'm approaching 50) it was mandatory to do a school trip to Berlin as well.
Also, i feel that germans care a lot about what other people think of them, personally and as a nation, more than most of our european neighbors.

 

[Dans]

Also, i feel that germans care a lot about what other people think of them, personally and as a nation, more than most of our european neighbors.

Do you think that's something that is a "positive" result from the 2 world wars though perhaps? That guilt led to a desire to be loved rather than hated?

 

[strongwalker]

Do you think that's something that is a "positive" result from the 2 world wars though perhaps? That guilt led to a desire to be loved rather than hated?

could call it lack of confidence. Before ~1989 it was very much a taboo to explain any pride in being german, for example.

 

[Cheesy]

Seems to be getting desperate at the Serbia-Hungary border at the moment.

 

[Member 5225]

Forgive my ignorance, but if I'm Hungary I don't want them in my country and I'm hurrying them along as quickly as I can....why are they getting so involved? What did they think was going to happen?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Seems to be getting desperate at the Serbia-Hungary border at the moment.

Yep. http://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/

Currently throwing stuff at police.

Shouldn't Serbian police do something?

 

[botond]

Yep. http://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/

Currently throwing stuff at police.

Shouldn't Serbian police do something?

The 'I dont eat your food until you let me in ' did not work

 

[botond]

http://wochenendspiegel-online.de/c...ay-und-machete-an-polizei-gibt-warnschuss-ab/
Asylum seekers attack shop assistant in Freiberg with pepper spray and machete

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Uh-huh, something's brewin' on the border. Large mass of those specialists cops just went towards it. Any Hungarians on Cafe?

 

[barros]

If Europe forces another countries to take refugees how the Spaniards and Portuguese would feel when they lost jobs, their houses and now the government will have to pay to housing the refugees? I think is time for Europe to go to Syria and annihilate ISIS

 

[jeff_goldblum]

BBC showing children and babies getting hit with water cannons and tear gas on the Hungarian Border

 

[Mrs Smoker]

They do wonders with CGI these days.

 

[maniak]

If Europe forces another countries to take refugees how the Spaniards and Portuguese would feel when they lost jobs, their houses and now the government will have to pay to housing the refugees? I think is time for Europe to go to Syria and annihilate ISIS

I am portuguese and I want my government to help people who risk to their lives to escape from whatever war they're running from. Many people feel the same, as I'm sure many do in Hungary.

 

[utdalltheway]

I am portuguese and I want my government to help people who risk to their lives to escape from whatever war they're running from. Many people feel the same, as I'm sure many do in Hungary.

Really? And you'll feel like that in the long term too?
A lot of these people on the Hungarian border are not escaping war; you know that right?
I'm with you on the war refugees, but not the economic migrants.

 

[x42bn6]

If Europe forces another countries to take refugees how the Spaniards and Portuguese would feel when they lost jobs, their houses and now the government will have to pay to housing the refugees? I think is time for Europe to go to Syria and annihilate ISIS

Will that work, though? There will still be a massive power vacuum that will be filled with ISIS v2, possibly as multiple competing factions. A land war with ISIS is also going to add to the humanitarian cost, both fighters and civilians alike.

ISIS is effectively a guerrilla warfare group so the level of force required to "annihilate" it is always going to be ridiculously disproportionate. Al-Qaeda was never "annihilated" - just weakened and split, and that incomplete mission had a tremendous humanitarian and financial cost.

There's also going to be limited appetite for increased US intervention in Syria with an election coming up, so Europe will have to go it alone - and that's going to be an utter disaster. Cameron might have won the election convincingly but a land war will be much harder to sell. Neither us nor France will do it alone, and certainly not without the US. If Merkel demands Europe-wide military action, that seals the UK's EU referendum result and France will simply say no (because a European military without the UK is basically France - maybe Italy at a push).

Russia's backing of Assad is also another factor - either the US and/or Europe works together with Putin (ha!) or they do it separately and risk friendly fire (ha!).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Just saw this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/15/saudi-arabia-has-100000-air-conditioned-tents-sitt/

Last week Saudi officials offered to build 200 new mosques in Germany to accommodate Muslim refugees.

I have no words!

 

[maniak]

Really? And you'll feel like that in the long term too?
A lot of these people on the Hungarian border are not escaping war; you know that right?
I'm with you on the war refugees, but not the economic migrants.

Yes, I feel like that long term. We have a demographic crisis and if other people want to come in, they're welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Now in the following I know I am in a minority: for me a syrian/afghani/somali life is as important as a portuguese life. They might not be escaping from war, but they are risking their life so they're surely escaping from something really grim.

 

[LeChuck]

Have you guys seen the Charlie Hebdo cartoons on the drowned Turkish boy (Aylan Kurdi), and the migrant crisis?

My comp keeps on lagging when I try and copy paste so here it is

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/w...is-with-cartoons-of-dead-syrian-boy.html?_r=0

 

[Mrs Smoker]

...the cartoons caused barely a ripple of reaction in France, but the response was “particularly virulent among Internet users abroad.”

That's a shocker.

And in a scathing editorial introducing the issue, Mr. Sourisseau made it clear that his intended target was what he called the hypocritical response to the crisis by European leaders and the public.

“we are not mocking the child. Instead we are criticizing the consumerist society that is being sold to them like a dream.”

OBE's tweet is great.

The Society of Black Lawyers will consider reporting this as incitement to hate crime & persecution before the International Criminal Court.

 

[utdalltheway]

Yes, I feel like that long term. We have a demographic crisis and if other people want to come in, they're welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Now in the following I know I am in a minority: for me a syrian/afghani/somali life is as important as a portuguese life. They might not be escaping from war, but they are risking their life so they're surely escaping from something really grim.

It's normal for people to feel for these migrants on some level; the problem is that as soon as you welcome in 10,000 or 500,000 then next year there'll be 5M of them, and so on. There is no end to this as long as the problems exist in their home countries.
And the populations there keep growing, thereby producing even more migrants. Soon all of the European countries would be swamped with migrants and their own ability to provide for them - and their own people - would be stretched too far. I suppose if you take it to extremes, the European countries would become so poor as to stop the migrations.

 

[Kostur]

Have you guys seen the Charlie Hebdo cartoons on the drowned Turkish boy (Aylan Kurdi), and the migrant crisis?

My comp keeps on lagging when I try and copy paste so here it is

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/w...is-with-cartoons-of-dead-syrian-boy.html?_r=0

Charlie Hebdo being a disgusting piece of shit, shocker really.

Looking forward idiotic hashtags from the mindless sheep.

 

[brad-dyrak]

Don't know if "guilt" is the right term for the current generation <55 years. It definitely was true for the older generation that grew up in after-war germany. The Nazi era, the war, the holocaust and its consequences were prominent subjects in education, possibly more so than in other countries. Its immediate "local" effect of after-war germany with the wall was ever-present. In my generation (i'm approaching 50) it was mandatory to do a school trip to Berlin as well.
Also, i feel that germans care a lot about what other people think of them, personally and as a nation, more than most of our european neighbors.

Thanks for that. I haven't spent enough time Germany (worked there for a bit and visited a few times) to feel like I'm anywhere close to understanding the folks there but have always wondered about that, though haven't wanted to ask. Very interesting. FWIW, I reckon you've got plenty to be proud of from the last 70 yrs.

 

[carvajal]

I am portuguese and I want my government to help people who risk to their lives to escape from whatever war they're running from. Many people feel the same, as I'm sure many do in Hungary.

Don´t say that too loud, if not in two days half West Africa will be climbing on a boat towards Algarve. The official version is "welcome refugees ," but as @barros said unemployed people (24%) is not very happy. In the school of my son the most honest parents have said they are not willing to be with 100 euros in the pocket, mid-month , for family finances while a foreigner gets social helps for school dinning room or rent a house, and of course, nobody wants to see a mosque.
In the images I´ve seen on Tv were old people and children ( wouldn´t be better for them to go to some Arabic speaking countries? ) but also much smartass who want to live well in Europe

 

[Desert Eagle]

Charlie Hebdo being a disgusting piece of shit, shocker really.

Looking forward idiotic hashtags from the mindless sheep.

How was the cartoon disgusting?