Euthanasia

[Wibble]

Our neighbours in the street, their daughter was euthanized at 27, 2 years ago

Tricky subject. Amazingly talented daughter but she went through the process and it was granted. Her mother is unapproachable almost.

What was her issue/condition/illness?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Why do you think it will never be on par? You can actually measure the neuronal activity of pain experience in an fMRI so it's pretty objective.

I think the difference between say, bipolar disorder and say terminal illness is one that will not be bridged tbh.

 

[Wibble]

I think the difference between say, bipolar disorder and say terminal illness is one that will not be bridged tbh.

Why does it need to be? Why shouldn't wanting to die be enough? With good safeguards of course. Lets say my wife died and in my 60's I decided I no longer wanted to live without her? Assuming grief based temporary depression was ruled out why shouldn't I be able to be helped to die?

Not that I would personally but I'd like the option.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Why does it need to be? Why shouldn't wanting to die be enough? With good safeguards of course. Lets say my wife died and in my 60's I decided I no longer wanted to live without her? Assuming grief based temporary depression was ruled out why shouldn't I be able to be helped to die?

Not that I would personally but I'd like the option.

I don't know, it's something I cannot really verbalise, I think you are free to choose but I don't wish for this to be a product or service society offers, outside of the most fringe cases. Normalisation of grief induced suicide seems bleak and dystopian to me.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Every case of euthanasia requires a professional judgement to make sure that person can make a rational and informed decision (or made a living will for when they couldn't). Cases like the one in question have take a long long time to get to the end game and you can't just top yourself because you had a bad day at work or even a few weeks of depression. And why should potentially getting better or even being ill be a criteria? If people want to die what has it got to do with anyone else as long as basic steps are taken two ensure people don't do it on a whim?

So in general I think euthanasia is for people that live in deep suffering with no prospect of getting better. If you are asking a doctor to take your life, there should be a very good reason for it - that's just my opinion. The prospect of getting better is relevant, because the decision is so final. If you take a physically healthy persons life, you have no way of knowing if that person would be happy five years down the line. And if that's possible, it is inherently worth protecting in my opinion.

With mental health, I think it becomes a lot less objective to establish the extent of the suffering for a person. Disorders of the mind are in general just a lot less objective than physical ailments. A psychatrist will need deep understanding of an individual through years of councelling to be able to make a determination. How does that psychiatrist maintain an unbiased opinion? I'm not sure. Is it possible for the psychiatrist to shape the wish the patient (knowingly or unknowingly) throughout that process?

To me there seems to be a lot of uncertainty, and therefore, I would generally lean towards not taking a life.

 

[Wibble]

I don't know, it's something I cannot really verbalise, I think you are free to choose but I don't wish for this to be a product or service society offers, outside of the most fringe cases. Normalisation of grief induced suicide seems bleak and dystopian to me.

It wouldn't be. It would take a long time to arrange, well past any temporary grief period. Then again why force people to kill themselves without support at all? Of course all sorts of medical assistance and councelling should be provided first, and a condition of the process, as most suicidal people are in temporary emotional pain.

 

[golden_blunder]

Im with @Wibble on this. If a person is set on it, isn’t it better to do it in an assisted, controlled way rather than something horrific like overdoses, shooting themselves, hanging, drowning or cutting themselves?

at least organ donations could be done from bodies that aren’t undamaged.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Im with @Wibble on this. If a person is set on it, isn’t it better to do it in an assisted, controlled way rather than something horrific like overdoses, shooting themselves, hanging, drowning or cutting themselves?

at least organ donations could be done from bodies that aren’t undamaged.

I don't know why, but the idea isn't sitting right with me.

 

[golden_blunder]

I don't know why, but the idea isn't sitting right with me.

I get it, it’s what people are accustomed to it.

im coming at it as someone who has had 4 uncles and a cousin commit suicide. I know what pain they went through with that last physical act.

 

[711]

I am in favour of Assisted Dying.
No one has the right to dictate to other people that they to carry on living with a terminal illness or in excruciating pain.
Yes there will need to be certain protocols and checks and balances put in place.
But it should be a human right to decide how how to end your own life.

Well said

 

[Sweet Square]

I don't know why, but the idea isn't sitting right with me.

In the space of three pages we’ve gone from euthanasia for hospital patients already dying soon and in a incredible amount of pain. To now euthanasia for depressed people who miss their wife. alternative to a drug overdosing or struggling at group meetings.

 

[Balljy]

So in general I think euthanasia is for people that live in deep suffering with no prospect of getting better. If you are asking a doctor to take your life, there should be a very good reason for it - that's just my opinion. The prospect of getting better is relevant, because the decision is so final. If you take a physically healthy persons life, you have no way of knowing if that person would be happy five years down the line. And if that's possible, it is inherently worth protecting in my opinion.

With mental health, I think it becomes a lot less objective to establish the extent of the suffering for a person. Disorders of the mind are in general just a lot less objective than physical ailments. A psychatrist will need deep understanding of an individual through years of councelling to be able to make a determination. How does that psychiatrist maintain an unbiased opinion? I'm not sure. Is it possible for the psychiatrist to shape the wish the patient (knowingly or unknowingly) throughout that process?

To me there seems to be a lot of uncertainty, and therefore, I would generally lean towards not taking a life.

I understand your point about objectively being able to pinpoint the reason for a terminal illness, but I think your first point of euthanasia being "for people that live in deep suffering with no prospect of getting better" is certainly the case for people with mental health as well.

When I was struggling, I've been in group sessions with people who had no real capability of living any sort of life, who couldn't speak to anyone and if I'm being truthful were probably never going to have a life that most people would want to live. Of course, some people may get themselves out of those issues and make progress which you could argue is the difference, but mental health can be a life defining condition from which there is isn't a way out unfortunately.

 

[Balljy]

In the space of three pages we’ve gone from euthanasia for hospital patients already dying soon and in a incredible amount of pain. To now euthanasia for depressed people who miss their wife. alternative to a drug overdosing or struggling at group meetings.

I think this thread also shows that there needs to be more education about what mental health conditions can result in. It's only in severe cases, but it can mean that people can't function to any real sort of level which seems to be missed.

 

[Penna]

Watched this tonight. Brilliant and terrifying documentary. Lots of Doctor StrangeLove vibes from the woman Canadian doctor.

I just watched it. I felt exactly the same about the woman doctor in Canada, she was terrifying in my opinion. She was revelling in her work. I liked it when Liz Carr's wife was saying "don't sign anything, don't drink anything". Honestly, it seemed so easy to get approved that it wasn't really a joke.

 

[Trequarista10]

Early on set Alzheimers runs in my family, so I have a ~50% chance of inheriting in about 15 years time. I will likely explore this option if it becomes evident I have the gene (I can do a test). Having witnessed what it did to my Dad and Aunt. I'm obviously biased, but I think it's about as gruesome and terrifying a way to die as humanly possible.

My initial thoughts on people in there 20s being euthanised for depression are that I am not in favour of it all. In fact I am not in favour of it for depression or any condition that isnt terminal or causing constant, unbearable, incurable pain. Depression can be overcome or managed or mitigated. Not saying its easy or that everyone will overcome it, but whilst it's possible, theoretically or in practise, I don't think this should be an option that is provided by the health service. I work with people with schizophrenia, which is incurable (or at least currently deemed to be), which is obviously a demographic with high suicide rates and high depression rates, and even they can in many cases have a tolerable existence, and moments worth living for. I have seen other people who are so depressed that they are either psychotic or virtually comatose, and I have seen them get better. When they were in that state they couldn't write an article or speak to camera to explain eloquently why they wanted to die. They were barely able to mutter a sentence, let alone a coherent one. This reeks of EUPD or similiar to me, which health services are currently not great at treating, but it is treatable.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I understand your point about objectively being able to pinpoint the reason for a terminal illness, but I think your first point of euthanasia being "for people that live in deep suffering with no prospect of getting better" is certainly the case for people with mental health as well.

When I was struggling, I've been in group sessions with people who had no real capability of living any sort of life, who couldn't speak to anyone and if I'm being truthful were probably never going to have a life that most people would want to live. Of course, some people may get themselves out of those issues and make progress which you could argue is the difference, but mental health can be a life defining condition from which there is isn't a way out unfortunately.

I'm not saying there are not people suffering from mental health issues to such a degree that they will never live a life without suffering. I'm saying that it must be incredibly difficult to accurately determine if that is the case, or if there is a potential to improve.

 

[Balljy]

I'm not saying there are not people suffering from mental health issues to such a degree that they will never live a life without suffering. I'm saying that it must be incredibly difficult to accurately determine if that is the case, or if there is a potential to improve.

Yeah, understood. I'd agree with that. There would have to be some pretty stringent tests in place and a certain diagnosis which would probably take years.

 

[Roane]

I have friends who had a younger brother who was involved in a car accident nearly 30 years ago. He had been in a coma since. Passed away a week or so ago. It was a relief of sorts.

This isn't my first experience with long term coma and then passing away. A girl who I grew up with and went to school with went through similar. She was run over by a car and in a coma for a long time. Not as long as the above but still a few years, before passing.

I'm not in the assisted dying/euthanasia camp. However I would say I'm in the allow to die camp.

What I mean is that if a person is in a coma or has an illness/disease that causes suffering or pain then don't try and prolong "life". Put that in "s because my friends didn't have a life whilst in comas.

Sorry if that sounds clumsy. It's hard to put in words.

 

[nickm]

I don't know why, but the idea isn't sitting right with me.

I'm with you. I can just about accept it for people who are close to the end of their lives, medically incapacitated and have no prospects of recovering. Even those cases are fraught with risk.

The rights of individuals to choose how they die have to be balanced with the morality of asking others to do the job, and the social protections vulnerable people might lose when the principle of not taking a life is softened etc. This is not an easy thing to write, especially if there are people reading who have been affected by this, but I believe the stigma arounds suicide plays a sad but necessary role in that social protection - and I'm not sure making it easier/medically assisted is a good idea.

Hence, I think euthaniasia is something that should be treated cautiously. It's something I think should barely be allowed at all, so I'm not a fan of finding reasons to extend it.

 

[Sweet Square]

I think this thread also shows that there needs to be more education about what mental health conditions can result in. It's only in severe cases, but it can mean that people can't function to any real sort of level which seems to be missed.

Function to any real sort of level is far too vague when it comes to euthanasia. Who would decide what counts as a functioning and not functioning life ? There’s actual tests that can be done when talking about euthanasia and a patient who is going to die soon and is in lots of pain. Although I still think even in these cases it should be very rare if at all.

But this isn’t the same with mental health. How would mental health be tested ? Again who gets to decide this ?

Also no how matter how years of “testing”(Whatever that would mean)and with all the good intentions in the world it’s still going to be impossible for euthanasia to have a 100% accuracy rate.

One of the reasons why I’m against the death penalty is one mistake is one too many. Shouldn’t the same apply here ?

I just watched it. I felt exactly the same about the woman doctor in Canada, she was terrifying in my opinion. She was revelling in her work. I liked it when Liz Carr's wife was saying "don't sign anything, don't drink anything". Honestly, it seemed so easy to get approved that it wasn't really a joke.

Seeing the doctor so committed to what is a serious topic and also smiling while talking about her role in 400 deaths left me speechless. Very haunting interview.

Maybe it was my brain getting tricked by the editing and directing but I did myself feeling less stressed when Carr managed to get out of the building. Horror movie stuff.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I hope Im not going too far off topic but just wondering. How come Euthanasia in Switzerland is so peaceful but the US seems to fk it up for death row inmates?

 

[oates]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001z8wc/better-off-dead



People should watch this. It definitely changed how I view things.

Just watched it. Very thought provoking and the opinions held by many surrounded a sort of Right to have complete control. I've almost always not been in favour of 'Assisted Dying', yet for someone who finds the pain or indignity of loss of control there will be more I feel Raging against the Dying of the Light.

It is a slippery slope, what came over very strongly was the warning and decisions that would need making on just how many mistakes, errors, deliberate taking control away from patients, again - just how many mistakes would we say are ok to make.

Everyone should have an opinion, not just some crumbly like me in a wheelchair.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I hope Im not going too far off topic but just wondering. How come Euthanasia in Switzerland is so peaceful but the US seems to fk it up for death row inmates?

Well, one is by the patient's choice and the other is state ordered as a punishment.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Well, one is by the patient's choice and the other is state ordered as a punishment.

Yeah but they botch it. I think there have been 70/80 odd ones that they fkd up.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Yeah but they botch it. I think there have been 70/80 odd ones that they fkd up.

Being a punishment it's possible there's less care for the welfare of the individual being executed, at least subconsciously. Also the inability to get the right drugs due to companies not wanting to be seen as supporting capital punishment is also a factor.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I get it, it’s what people are accustomed to it.

im coming at it as someone who has had 4 uncles and a cousin commit suicide. I know what pain they went through with that last physical act.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[golden_blunder]

I'm sorry to hear that.

Long time ago, but as you’d imagine it’s a topic I’m interested in

 

[Stanley Road]

What was her issue/condition/illness?

It was weird, she'd just come back from a year in oz and suddenly she started having a lot of seizures, after a period of time they did some brain surgery to see if that would help. Things just got worse that she was having so many per day she had to stop her uni studies. This led to depression and the seizures intensified to the point she no longer wanted to live. She was a very beautiful girl but as time went on she looked like the girl in the ring.

It was very sad and nearly broke her parents 40 year marriage

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

This is a good (and obviously very sad) one to get into it, also mental-health based.

 

[frostbite]

I agree with assisted death, for those who want it, for any reason, after the proper protocols are set.

By the way, in the United States there are 27,000 suicides with guns every year. It seems that the freedom to have guns also implies the freedom to die when you want. Perhaps that's the main reason that Americans love their guns? I don't really believe that there are thousands of Americans that have "defended their home" using their gun, but it is certainly true that thousands of americans every year terminate their own live using their gun.


https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center...in-2022-gun-homicides-down-slightly-from-2021

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

I agree with assisted death, for those who want it, for any reason, after the proper protocols are set.

By the way, in the United States there are 27,000 suicides with guns every year. It seems that the freedom to have guns also implies the freedom to die when you want. Perhaps that's the main reason that Americans love their guns? I don't really believe that there are thousands of Americans that have "defended their home" using their gun, but it is certainly true that thousands of americans every year terminate their own live using their gun.


https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center...in-2022-gun-homicides-down-slightly-from-2021

I wish all the mass shooters would start committing suicide as well

 

[Red in STL]

I wish all the mass shooters would start committing suicide as well

I'd prefer they do it before the mass shooting rather than after

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

I'd prefer they do it before the mass shooting rather than after

Yes absolutely

 

[hobbers]

Why does it need to be? Why shouldn't wanting to die be enough? With good safeguards of course. Lets say my wife died and in my 60's I decided I no longer wanted to live without her? Assuming grief based temporary depression was ruled out why shouldn't I be able to be helped to die?

Not that I would personally but I'd like the option.

What about if your wife died when you were both 25 and you thought the same?

 

[Wibble]

What about if your wife died when you were both 25 and you thought the same?

My right no matter what my age. Safeguards still applied of course.

I wouldn't personally but that is irrelevant.

 

[VorZakone]

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I feel like there is a joke in here somewhere.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I'm all for it but I think it should only be granted if you have exhausted all other options. Like for depression - Have they really exhausted all options? Or have they just gone to the doctor and been given antidepressants? What about - Ketamine therapy, Mushrooms, Ayahuasca, hypnosis, meditation, Electroconvulsive therapy, exercise, weed. I can go on. Even if you think its a load of bull might as well give a go before ending it. No? Or even just hard drugs on prescription. Like coke, heroin. Fk it. Might as well give it a go. Maybe it will fk you up long term but what have you got to loose.

 

[diarm]

I feel like there is a joke in here somewhere.

People should think twice.

one game can change everything, that’s the beauty of the sport. there is no perfect , linear path to success, ask ranieri, jose (barca kit man), even silver spoon peps first job was bigger then any job most managers will never have. there is no obvious ingredient that will guarantee success.

 

[Red the Bear]

Against it's legalisation but don't make it punishable either so say if a doctor sneaks a few more doses of morphine in their patients bloodstream with their consent, it's just that.

Obviously wouldn't be perfect and wouldn't account every imaginable case but I'd reckon making legal on a large scale brings more harm than good as some have previously aluded to.

Also philosophically speaking it seems objectively in opposition to what a doctor should strive to do, perhaps the solution would be to create a separate class of medical practitioners specialist in death which does sound morbid when laid our like that.