F1 2021 Season

[EdWeatherall]

Interesting - based on that the footage should come out at some point and presumably they will have to make a decision

not sure what the scope of any punishment could be though but I can see things becoming even more heated between red bull and merc as no doubt merc will push for some kind of penalty at the next GP and Red Bull look almost certain to try and complain about the merc wing that they seem convinced is flexing

In that case should they not have waited til end of race and all data was available. Surely they could have got some footage of him turning or not. Or some telemetry to show what happened.

If his weaving had kept Hamilton behind him. Would he still only have got black and white flags as them at doesn’t seem an appropriate punishment either. Not for something that can be incredibly dangerous

 

[sun_tzu]

I honestly have trouble believing that. Every drone race organizer is miles ahead of F1 if that is true. But for the sake of argument even if it were true how can they then decide it's not worthy of investigation if they haven't seen what they claim to be crtical evidence? (Even that in itself is bizarre because it doesn't matter if Max went wide because of steering or because of throttle).

they have come out and said they will be reviewing the footage now... so lets see (perhaps it was no investigation at the time but the incident was noted as they knew they dodnt have the onboard and wanted that before doing a full investigation)

i was surprised he didnt get a 5 second penalty at the time... seemed obvious he braked too late and that would force him wide therefore forcing lewis wider and I dont think you needed the onboard to see that but in the grand scheme of things a 5 second penalty probably wouldnt have changed anything anyway so lets see what they do but Im quite looking forwardto this weekend now - its not quite senna prost but its for sure one of the better title fights

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[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Im quite looking forwardto this weekend now - its not quite senna prost but its for sure one of the better title fights

Verstappen is Prost yeah?

 

[sun_tzu]

Verstappen is Prost yeah?

think lewis baggsied senna

to the annoyance of somebody on here yesterday

 

[The Firestarter]

I honestly have trouble believing that. Every drone race organizer is miles ahead of F1 if that is true. But for the sake of argument even if it were true how can they then decide it's not worthy of investigation if they haven't seen what they claim to be crtical evidence? (Even that in itself is bizarre because it doesn't matter if Max went wide because of steering or because of throttle).

Every car can transmit at once, but only one camera feed per car. At that moment, Maxes' rear facing camera was active. The other car cameras were stored locally in the car.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Every car can transmit at once, but only one camera feed per car. At that moment, Maxes' rear facing camera was active. The other car cameras were stored locally in the car.

And were available after the race and post-race inspections.

Masi could have easily said “based on angles we have now, not 100% but we will review after and could give a retrospective penalty if appropriate for the next GP”.

 

[The Firestarter]

And were available after the race and post-race inspections.

Masi could have easily said “based on angles we have now, not 100% but we will review after and could give a retrospective penalty if appropriate for the next GP”.

I agree that they seem to continue handling these incidents terribly.

 

[sun_tzu]

And were available after the race and post-race inspections.

Masi could have easily said “based on angles we have now, not 100% but we will review after and could give a retrospective penalty if appropriate for the next GP”.

havent they come out today and said they will review the footage?
currently most of them are flying between south america and the middle east i think so unlikley to move forwards till tomorrow at the earliest I would guess?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

havent they come out today and said they will review the footage?
currently most of them are flying between south america and the middle east i think so unlikley to move forwards till tomorrow at the earliest I would guess?

I think so but I’m not sure they’ll retrospectively do anything as I think they’ll just say “too late, made an on the day decision“. They didn’t even refer it formally as in investigation which would have led to asking for RBs full telemetry info.

And for Masi to say the “let them race” principle kicks in, well it hasn’t in all other races? (Austria?).

Again, I’m 99% sure they’re making honest (but incorrect) decisions but they look stupid and their justification makes conspiracy stories easy.

 

[sun_tzu]

I think so but I’m not sure they’ll retrospectively do anything as I think they’ll just say “too late, made an on the day decision“. They didn’t even refer it formally as in investigation which would have led to asking for RBs full telemetry info.

And for Masi to say the “let them race” principle kicks in, well it hasn’t in all other races? (Austria?).

Again, I’m 99% sure they’re making honest (but incorrect) decisions but they look stupid and their justification makes conspiracy stories easy.

not sure what they will do

I was expecting a 5 second penalty during the race

if that were applied retrospectively it wouldn't change anything (had it been applied in the race perhaps bottas would have pushed harder etc)*

I am fully expecting merc to lodge a complaint when the footage comes out - Im fully expecting red bull to lodge a complaint about the merc rear wing - after that Im not sure - probably using perez / bottas to try and spoil the quali runs for lewis and max - basically its gonna be a pissing contest for the next 3 races and everybody in red bull / merc is gonna get soaked

Asked if the forward-facing on-board footage from Verstappen's Red Bull had been available when looking at the incident, Masi said: "It is only the cameras that are broadcast that are basically what we have access to throughout.

"It hasn’t been obtained yet. It has been requested.”

Put to him this footage is the "smoking gun" in this instance, Masi conceded: “It could be, absolutely.

"But we didn’t have access to it. It has been downloaded and once the commercial rights holder supplies it, we will have a look.

“Absolutely [I will look at it]. We’ve got the forward-facing, the 360…all of the camera angles that we don’t get live will be downloaded and we will have a look at them.”

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/72217/verstappen-smoking-gun-the-fia-lacked-in-brazil/

*Edit just checked if the 5 second were applied retrospectively botas would be ahead of max (though im sure red bull will argue max would have pushed harder if he had known... so yeah its gonna be a big pissing contest i think)

 

[sun_tzu]

Is Qatar a night race?

If so thats probably going to be a bit easier on the tyres as I guess ambient temp is likley to be low 20's this time of year - not too dissimilar to the temps in the sprint race.

 

[Dan_F]

I’m not sure the onboard footage makes much of a different, we know which way the steering wheel is going because we can see the wheels.

He broke late to counter Hamilton being ahead and couldn’t make the apex or stay on the track. If Max stayed on track and forced Hamilton off then I could understand the let them race argument. I don’t really see the relevance of whether it was intentional either, it’s a slam dunk of a 5 second penalty the more you see it.

An irrelevance in terms of Hamilton’s finish, but Bottas could have got within 5 seconds of Max, or would have at least forced extra wear on the engine parts.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

not sure what they will do

I was expecting a 5 second penalty during the race

if that were applied retrospectively it wouldn't change anything (had it been applied in the race perhaps bottas would have pushed harder etc)*

I am fully expecting merc to lodge a complaint when the footage comes out - Im fully expecting red bull to lodge a complaint about the merc rear wing - after that Im not sure - probably using perez / bottas to try and spoil the quali runs for lewis and max - basically its gonna be a pissing contest for the next 3 races and everybody in red bull / merc is gonna get soaked




https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/72217/verstappen-smoking-gun-the-fia-lacked-in-brazil/

*Edit just checked if the 5 second were applied retrospectively botas would be ahead of max (though im sure red bull will argue max would have pushed harder if he had known... so yeah its gonna be a big pissing contest i think)

Yip, gloves are off now, they're going to argue about everything. I posted something a day or so ago where Wolff basically said "there's no more gentleman's rules, gloves are off, we're going for everything now"

At the time, I said this could come back to bite Red Bull. If I was Wolff, I'd publicise everything now, no queries and appealing behind the scenes, all out in the open.

This could be (bloody) great

 

[ChaddyP]

I’m not sure the onboard footage makes much of a different, we know which way the steering wheel is going because we can see the wheels.

He broke late to counter Hamilton being ahead and couldn’t make the apex or stay on the track. If Max stayed on track and forced Hamilton off then I could understand the let them race argument. I don’t really see the relevance of whether it was intentional either, it’s a slam dunk of a 5 second penalty the more you see it.

An irrelevance in terms of Hamilton’s finish, but Bottas could have got within 5 seconds of Max, or would have at least forced extra wear on the engine parts.

just a quick note. I think he hit his braking mark but let go of the brake earlier than normal. This is why the car understeers so much as there is less weight on the front tyres and also much more entry speed due to early brake release.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

He's obviously not going to say 'yeah that's a penalty all day for me, that.'

I wouldn't expect him to. But the barefaced lie was a bit rich. Not even a hint of a wry smile.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Genuinely I can't remember when someone in sport has gotten under my skin so much. In Silverstone Lewis went in a bit hot, Max did nothing to avoid, Max goes off and Horner accuses Hamilton of putting his driver in the hospital. Here Max goes in waaaayyyy too hot, Lewis avoids the conctact and its "hard racing". Its probably the 5th or 6th such incident this season. Its terrible PR for him and RBR and honestly I think in the long term it will hurt Max because, unless Horner is giving him hell behind closed doors, Horner is enabling this behaviour in Max. My dearest hope is that both teams have decent cars next year and either Lewis or Russell put Max away for a few years.

Absolutely. His poor management is not helping max develop into an all round driver who doesn't try to crash his opponents off the track.

Although, if even the FIA are letting him get away with it then maybe he will never need to learn.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Horner and Max are the same (and as a result, I don't think they have any words with Max, they enable him).

It's always a racing incident or "let them race" principle when it's Max. Then they moan if Lewis holds/pushes his line.

I can understand stewards saying they couldn't penalise him to a certain extent yesterday without the front facing camera but I don't see why they can't keep chasing that (I think they are) and if appropriate, penalise him for the next GP.

SKY were saying it was frustrating their live feed switched to the rear facing just at the crucial moment. So what? That doesn't mean you switched the cameras off, the film is still there?

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021...g-camera-not-available-in-hamilton-move-call/

Interesting article. Thanks.

 

[Dan_F]

just a quick note. I think he hit his braking mark but let go of the brake earlier than normal. This is why the car understeers so much as there is less weight on the front tyres and also much more entry speed due to early brake release.

Thanks for correcting. It still applies that he’s been forced into an error by Hamilton getting ahead, and we all know he’d have taken a penalty if Hamilton didn’t get out of the way and there was contact.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Can they do that?

Normally that kind of incident is taken care of in the race (5 or 10 second penalty).

From what I saw i was surprised he didn't get a punishment.. and Lewis did well to avoid the accident

Not sure what tools are available to the fia but my gut feel is I'd be surprised to see them do anything in the next gp... perhaps retrospectively add 5 seconds to his time in Brazil so he still finished 2nd?

Wasn't Bottas 3.5 second behind him?

 

[sun_tzu]

Wasn't Bottas 3.5 second behind him?

yes I edited a post to change that but missed this one

*Edit just checked if the 5 second were applied retrospectively botas would be ahead of max (though im sure red bull will argue max would have pushed harder if he had known... so yeah its gonna be a big pissing contest i think)

 

[Fluctuation0161]

They not choose it per se but they will let play it out untill Dubai if they can, thats entertaining value will skyrocket for them even it means bending some rules for some drivers. This close battle all season has been entertaing, no way they gonna let it end right now.

I agree the way stewards handle this matter has been abysmal to say the least. I am all for hard driving but the rule is the limit, you should punish those who break them regardless who they are. And the excuse not having access to the footage?

I agree with you OK the footage. It's a joke.

It wouldn't have been entertaining if Mercedes were completely out of the title race. Which is what the punishments most likely outcome was, if nor for Hamiltons brilliance and the new engines pace. So it seems to me the motivation isn't to create more entertainment, but to crown Max as the second coming.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

In that case should they not have waited til end of race and all data was available. Surely they could have got some footage of him turning or not. Or some telemetry to show what happened.

If his weaving had kept Hamilton behind him. Would he still only have got black and white flags as them at doesn’t seem an appropriate punishment either. Not for something that can be incredibly dangerous

Totally agree.

Maxs constant dangerous weaving combined with running another driver off the track completely to hold position.

How he didn't get a single penalty seems very strange.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Brilliant! You can't even see the apex.

 

[fishfingers15]

Would be good if Verstappen starts at the bottom of the grid and makes his way up the track to finish 2nd after Hamilton. It would at least make up for an awful week of Manchester United football should we suck against Ranieri's watford.

 

[ChaddyP]

Thanks for correcting. It still applies that he’s been forced into an error by Hamilton getting ahead, and we all know he’d have taken a penalty if Hamilton didn’t get out of the way and there was contact.

Agreed here. Verstappen knew what he was doing imo and forced himself and Hamilton off track.

 

[WeePat]

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Translation

F1 race director Michael Massi acknowledges that they did not have access to Verstappen's onboards in the incident with Hamilton. After seeing them, he assures that the action was 100% punishable.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Can they do that?

Normally that kind of incident is taken care of in the race (5 or 10 second penalty).

From what I saw i was surprised he didn't get a punishment.. and Lewis did well to avoid the accident

Not sure what tools are available to the fia but my gut feel is I'd be surprised to see them do anything in the next gp... perhaps retrospectively add 5 seconds to his time in Brazil so he still finished 2nd?

He wouldn't Bottas only finished 3 secs behind him.

 

[Fully Fledged]

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Translation

F1 race director Michael Massi acknowledges that they did not have access to Verstappen's onboards in the incident with Hamilton. After seeing them, he assures that the action was 100% punishable.

Mercedes needs to appeal given new evidence. The process is there they should use it.

 

[RoadTrip]

I bloody well hope they make an appeal. The decision was a joke without the front camera or telemetry. I’m sure with it, it’ll be even more slam dunk. I feel Merc have been trying to take the high road all season. And I am supportive of that. And I don’t want them to become such twats that they start nearing Red Bull territory. But it’s time to get into the mud ring now.

 

[RoadTrip]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Translation

F1 race director Michael Massi acknowledges that they did not have access to Verstappen's onboards in the incident with Hamilton. After seeing them, he assures that the action was 100% punishable.

Who is this chap? And how reliable is this quote (I.e chances of Masi actually saying it?). Definitely lost some faith given he couldn’t spell his name right …

 

[Adam-Utd]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Translation

F1 race director Michael Massi acknowledges that they did not have access to Verstappen's onboards in the incident with Hamilton. After seeing them, he assures that the action was 100% punishable.

Does Masi really need a forward facing camera to tell that was way beyond a normal racing incident? Literally everybody can see from the helicopter view what happened. You don't need an onboard.

This guy is a complete buffoon. So many instances this year he's made mistakes with. I can't believe he agreed along with the red bull rep saying "let them race".

They've now made an even bigger can of worms for them. It's actually worse to give Max a 5 second penalty after the race as he has no chance to rectify it. What a mess.

 

[The Cat]

Be better now if they summon him next chance this week and tell him no more - any kind of that nonsense and there will be stern penalties see if that registers with him.

 

[sun_tzu]

Be better now if they summon him next chance this week and tell him no more - any kind of that nonsense and there will be stern penalties see if that registers with him.

It would have been incredibly easy for there to have been an accident... and if there had been a barrier or wall there would max have still pushed him wide

We will never know but I for one am not 100% ruling that out

I'm pretty sure he must have known what he was doing so I'm not sure a warning is sufficient

The fia have not made the situation easier by not investigating and resolving in the race to be honest

 

[The Cat]

It would have been incredibly easy for there to have been an accident... and if there had been a barrier or wall there would max have still pushed him wide

We will never know but I for one am not 100% ruling that out

I'm pretty sure he must have known what he was doing so I'm not sure a warning is sufficient

The fia have not made the situation easier by not investigating and resolving in the race to be honest

Yep agreed, only reason I suggest he gets pulled in and warned is I'm not really sure what they can do about it now. He's a danger in my view to himself and everyone else. His team won't or can't reign him in they just defend everything he does. Drivers have always pushed things at the top I get that but this guy looks to do it calculatedly which is the main reason I don't want him winning the championship until he learns responsibility.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Asked if the forward-facing on-board footage from Verstappen's Red Bull had been available when looking at the incident, Masi said: "It is only the cameras that are broadcast that are basically what we have access to throughout.

"It hasn’t been obtained yet. It has been requested.”

Put to him this footage is the "smoking gun" in this instance, Masi conceded: “It could be, absolutely.

"But we didn’t have access to it. It has been downloaded and once the commercial rights holder supplies it, we will have a look.

“Absolutely [I will look at it]. We’ve got the forward-facing, the 360…all of the camera angles that we don’t get live will be downloaded and we will have a look at them.”

Masi has confirmed Verstappen came close to receiving a black-and-white flag for the incident.

"It certainly came into my mind," conceded Masi. "I looked at it a few more times [and] it wasn't far off a black-and-white flag."

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/72217/verstappen-smoking-gun-the-fia-lacked-in-brazil/

That seems to be what he said. Saying that footage that he hasn't seen could be the smoking gun is far different that what is being said in the tweet. In that interview he wouldn't admit he had done anything wrong.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Who is this chap? And how reliable is this quote (I.e chances of Masi actually saying it?). Definitely lost some faith given he couldn’t spell his name right …

A quick google search doesn’t find any new quotes from Masi.

 

[GloryHunter07]

It would have been incredibly easy for there to have been an accident... and if there had been a barrier or wall there would max have still pushed him wide

We will never know but I for one am not 100% ruling that out

I'm pretty sure he must have known what he was doing so I'm not sure a warning is sufficient

The fia have not made the situation easier by not investigating and resolving in the race to be honest

Thats a bit much, i dont think Max wouldve run Lewis into a wall.

 

[WeePat]

Who is this chap? And how reliable is this quote (I.e chances of Masi actually saying it?). Definitely lost some faith given he couldn’t spell his name right …

F1 presenter in Spain. No idea about his reliability to be honest. Probably should have checked before posting.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yep agreed, only reason I suggest he gets pulled in and warned is I'm not really sure what they can do about it now. He's a danger in my view to himself and everyone else. His team won't or can't reign him in they just defend everything he does. Drivers have always pushed things at the top I get that but this guy looks to do it calculatedly which is the main reason I don't want him winning the championship until he learns responsibility.

100% agree.

I think a retrospective 5 second penalty or even a penalty for the next race are the only 2 viable options.

Yo be honest, how he didn't get a penalty in the first review is baffling.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Thats a bit much, i dont think Max wouldve run Lewis into a wall.

Fair enough, you can have your opinion. I think Max was willing for both cars to be taken out at that corner in Brazil because it would've given him a strategic advantage in the championship. Wall or no wall.