So they're satisfied with the crumbs Bayern throws at them? Got it!
It will be very interesting to see viewership numbers for this season.
FC Bayern München - 22/23 - No levers, no Lewy
- Thread starter Acrobat7
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It will be very interesting to see viewership numbers for this season.
This isn't the right thread for it but I think people overestimate how much viewership numbers would change if Bayern would be less dominant. Sure some people would watch the odd match more here and there, probably streamed illegally, but I reckon very few would go out of their way to pay to watch even if there were expectations of a genuine title race.
After all how many leagues can anyone realistically be interested in enough to pay more? Most outside attention is already on the PL and maybe Spain, not much room for anything else. Hypothetically I'd say even if Man City increase their dominance and Liverpool drop off, say after Klopp leaves or whatever, people would continue to watch anyway for the most part, or at least not just jump to the next best competitive league.
After all how many leagues can anyone realistically be interested in enough to pay more? Most outside attention is already on the PL and maybe Spain, not much room for anything else. Hypothetically I'd say even if Man City increase their dominance and Liverpool drop off, say after Klopp leaves or whatever, people would continue to watch anyway for the most part, or at least not just jump to the next best competitive league.
The Bundesliga has seen growing tv rights over the past decade.
The deal that was signed was slightly lower than the previous one, but that was purely because of Covid and every league that signed a new deal then had lower numbers because of the pandemic. Even the previous EPL domestic tv deal signed was lower than the one before that.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...-stability-and-perhaps-a-brighter-future/amp/
So to answer your question there hasn't been any reduction in viewership since Bayern started dominating. In the match between Bochum and Bayern, Bochum sold out their stadium. Now by the logic here no one in Bochum would want to go watch their team play Bayern knowing they would get hammered right? Yet football doesn't work that way.
Their series on amazon prime is fine, better than the others
That's is the issue, the only way to end Bayern supremacy is to go the Premier League way...which is sell clubs to some corrupt oligarch/sheik with blood in his hands.
Breaking the 50+1 rule is not gonna attract german multimillionaires, it's going to attract bloody sheiks and oligarchs looking to wash their image by pumping piles of cash in a football club, even using offshore accounts to fool the wage structure.
That's how Chelsea and City ended United supremacy in England, now we even have Newcastle too.
EPL officials would sell football clubs to mexican cartels and ISIS if they could find a cheeky loophole to do it without getting punished.
As much as i find Bundesliga super boring, better boring than dirty money all over the place.
Organized fans are against changing the ownership model regardless of who is buying the club.
Anyway. The clubs would be extremely attractive to (German) multimillionaires. Just look at Hannover, Hoffenheim and Hamburg. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Companies would also be potentially interested. The problem is, that these people are not going to invest enough to challenge Bayern. That's something that @do.ob (if I am not mistaken) frequently points out. There are plenty of "investors" in European top leagues. Out of all of them 4 stand out (if we ignore what happened pre2000). Chelsea, City, PSG and Newcastle.
When Roman took over Chelsea, they were a solid team, with a stadium in one of the richest cities in the world. Yet he still had to invest 1-2billion over ~19 years to be competitive. I don't know how much Mansour invested exactly, but if we include infrastructure probably a lot more than 2billion in ~ 15 years. PSG can afford to spend over 1b on just three players. There are only few people who are willing and able to commit at least 1-2b for the first 10-20 years and thats probably on the lower end of whats needed. You need people who have very strong non-monetary motivations and are also capable.
So which one do you pick?
Bayern dominance or Oligarch/Sheikh league
During the ESL the same posters trashing Bundesliga were looking at it as the model league.
The type of money that can challenge Bayern can only be given by a Sheikh not a businessman
Bayern dominance or Oligarch/Sheikh league
During the ESL the same posters trashing Bundesliga were looking at it as the model league.
The type of money that can challenge Bayern can only be given by a Sheikh not a businessman
It shouldn't be a dichotomy.
Let's know of the 3rd option
Going and distributing 100% of the tv money equally, instead of 50% would be a start.
Show us the current distribution and how much each club gets to compare with what happens in other leagues
Good start, but that won't make the likes of Hoffenheim,Schalke, or Wolfsburg challenge Bayern for the league.
In the late years the EPL has been picked by rich teams City,Chelsea, and Liverpool (teams that would be financially fine, even with unfair tv money distribution) not by Brighton, Southampton, or Leeds (who depend on tv right deals).
Leicester winning the PL was an anomaly, it won't happen again in decades.
The only money that can challenge Bayern mostly comes from sheiks and oligarchs who don't care about profits in Football, and have second intentions when buying a football club.
United supremacy in PL ended with Abramovich and Abu Dhabi, you need that kind of money to break the status quo.
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Would change nothing. The 3rd solution would be for Bayern to literally share their money with the rest of the league
Whataboutism is definitely not going to help.
It may or may not break Bayern's hegemony but it will make the league more competitive, as has happened with Serie A.
An extra 30m goes a long way if you are St Pauli for example.
That money wouldn't change anything for Bayern, and it would significantly weakne Dortmund, Leipzig, etc, who barely make any less than bayern under the current distribution. It's the commercial revenue for Bayern that killed the league, not the TV money
My point is one one hand what you've been saying: that no entity that defines success in monetary terms is going to invest anywhere close to what it's going to take to bridge the gap to Bayern. I think basic logic tells you that top four and access to CL money is a sweet spot in terms of investment and trying to gap the annual difference of €300 to €400m from there to Bayern would be financial insanity. Bundesliga is the only country with a 50+1 rule, you can look at the entirety of Europe to find examples of clubs that could challenge Bayern, who aren't either funded by blood money or were already huge clubs for decades. I'm still waiting for a certain user to name me a single one
.On the other hand we're already seeing clubs that aren't bound by 50+1, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg have basically no growth potential, they all have tiny stadiums, which they still can't fill - the former sold about 2/3 of their 30k tickets for their season opener, despite having actually finished top four, supposedly having a hopeful outlook for the season, their officials talking about aiming for silverware. German fans hate plastic, these clubs struggle immensely to grow their fan bases or sponsorship deals. They will never be in a position to challenge Bayern, because that wouldn't be profitable, they are like a turd that won't flush (because when they mess up, their parent company just injects some money) with regards to the CL/EL spots, taking away placements (and thus growth) away from clubs that might have to chance to turn into something bigger with continuous access to European football. They go against Bundesliga's marketing of full stadiums and fan culture and seeing the plastics clog up the upper third of the table or winning the cup hurts domestic fan enthusiasm maybe even as much as Bayern's dominance, since for example no one gives a feck if Wolfsburg or Leverkusen make top four or not (Sky had to adjust the rounding of their TV ratings, because the plasticos would frequently register at 0 viewers) - but for example Freiburg's or Frankfurt's last season draw people in.
Leipzig are a bit of an exception, since they run a global network of feeder clubs and (accidentally) settled in a football starved area, but so far it still looks like their main purpose is making life harder for Dortmund, rather than actually challenging Bayern and as far as domestic fans go, I think a lot of people would rather see Bayern win their n'th title in a row than see Leipzig win their first.
So when someone write "50+1" needs to go I'm pretty sure they are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
Yes, that's another ridiculously obvious fallacy. You'd think people, who are so focused on the title race, would realize that it doesn't make sense if they suggest that money be taken away from the very teams that they want to see challenge Bayern.
Looking at the 4 "plastic clubs" one can actually notice quite different situations.My point is one one hand what you've been saying: that no entity that defines success in monetary terms is going to invest anywhere close to what it's going to take to bridge the gap to Bayern. I think basic logic tells you that top four and access to CL money is a sweet spot in terms of investment and trying to gap the annual difference of €300 to €400m from there to Bayern would be financial insanity. Bundesliga is the only country with a 50+1 rule, you can look at the entirety of Europe to find examples of clubs that could challenge Bayern, who aren't either funded by blood money or were already huge clubs for decades. I'm still waiting for a certain user to name me a single one
On the other hand we're already seeing clubs that aren't bound by 50+1, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg have basically no growth potential, they all have tiny stadiums, which they still can't fill - the former sold about 2/3 of their 30k tickets for their season opener, despite having actually finished top four, supposedly having a hopeful outlook for the season, their officials talking about aiming for silverware. German fans hate plastic, these clubs struggle immensely to grow their fan bases or sponsorship deals. They will never be in a position to challenge Bayern, because that wouldn't be profitable, they are like a turd that won't flush (because when they mess up, their parent company just injects some money) with regards to the CL/EL spots, taking away placements (and thus growth) away from clubs that might have to chance to turn into something bigger with continuous access to European football. They go against Bundesliga's marketing of full stadiums and fan culture and seeing the plastics clog up the upper third of the table or winning the cup hurts domestic fan enthusiasm maybe even as much as Bayern's dominance, since for example no one gives a feck if Wolfsburg or Leverkusen make top four or not (Sky had to adjust the rounding of their TV ratings, because the plasticos would frequently register at 0 viewers) - but for example Freiburg's or Frankfurt's last season draw people in.
Leipzig are a bit of an exception, since they run a global network of feeder clubs and (accidentally) settled in a football starved area, but so far it still looks like their main purpose is making life harder for Dortmund, rather than actually challenging Bayern and as far as domestic fans go, I think a lot of people would rather see Bayern win their n'th title in a row than see Leipzig win their first.
So when someone write "50+1" needs to go I'm pretty sure they are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
Yes, that's another ridiculously obvious fallacy. You'd think people, who are so focused on the title race, would realize that it doesn't make sense if they suggest that money be taken away from the very teams that they want to see challenge Bayern.
Wolfsburg and Leverkusen both have a history of being workers clubs associated with the companies Bayer and VW. They actually are traditional clubs, just their financial resources are disproportional to their potential fan base. Nonetheless there is a good reason why they exist in that way.
Hoffenheim is essentially a village club who got lucky because a former player became a billionaire and just pushed his childhood team to the BL. It's the closest we have to an "oligarch club" in Germany and like the first two their growth potential is limited, but at least the investor ultimately chose them because of his youth ties (yes I know Hopp was in talks with bigger clubs first for big investment, but after that didn't work out he decided to his old mates and I think there is at least a nice "from rags to riches" story here).
Leipzig is the big exception. There are no traditional ties between RB and the club, and it is set up to circumvent the rules, while the other three have at least a reasonable case why they don't follow the 50+1 rule. They are an abomination and the sad thing is that they smartly went to a region where no top team existed so they have actually the potential to grow a fan base over time. That might some day allow them to actually vecome big enough to challenge, but I feel like they would actually need to not be so closely tied to RB to become interesting for more sponsors etc.
Bayern would probably welcome this, because it would weaken their competition, since this would only affect the top teams besides Bayern, because Bayern doesn't really need this money. Their main sources of income are others.
edit: damnit @do.ob , didn't see you already addressed this.
Sure, historically/legally that gives them a credible justification for their exemption from 50+1. But what does it matter for the present day? There aren't any factory workers in their teams, they are propped up several divisions beyond their natural habitat and if their parent company were to put them on their own feet, they'd probably end up like Bayer Uerdingen. If they were playing in the 3rd or 4th tier I wouldn't call them plastic, but in the here and now they a forced into top 6, because some chemical or car company wants them to.
I don't know what's nice or "rags to riches" about an entitled billionaire deciding he wants to see a random village club play in Bundesliga at the expense of literally the entire rest of the country. Achieveing it, by spending more than the entire rest of the competition combined in lower leagues.
Also: https://www.90min.com/posts/4987957...s-fifa-run-rule-over-29m-move-from-hoffenheim
They were so smart about it, they first went to Duisburg and St. Pauli (imagine that) about invensting in their club. And how can you call them an abomination and the other three fine? They are a company using their own football club for marketing purposes, just like Leverkusen or Wolfsburg. And just like Hopp they backdoored 50+1.
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In my eyes it would not even harm them most but is the only factor that really equals the differences between clubs with structural disadvantages that successfully overperform their situation to others that underperform even if they have more money from sponsors, stadium, fans.
People always forget that even if money is a big factor it is not the only one. Bayern will always be competitor for the title and would win 6 out of 10 even with worse performances like Bvb would get into the CL 9 of 10 years. But 10 out of 10 is connected with an exceptional run by them or a real bad run by other clubs...
4 weeks ago there were so many doubts about this season especially about the replacement of Lewy. Now when the offense functions this discussions start again.
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Maybe an actual example about the relationship of many Germans to plastic clubs...
Ottensen, a club from Regionalliga Nord plays in the first round of the DFB Cup against Rasenball Leipzig. The club comes from a district of Hamburg. They usually play on artifical ground - that is not allowed in the DFB Cup. Because of the special date (the Supercup was played on the Saturday of the Cup weekend and round one of the cup for this two terminated for next Tuesday and Wednesday) TV is broadcasting the match, too. As events like this are cash heaven for this small clubs they usually play this matches in bigger stadium anyways.
They could not find a stadium nearer to Hamburg than in Dessau. Clubs like e.g. St. Pauli openly said they would not let them play in their stadium because the opponent was RB Leipzig. Dessau is more than 300 km from Hamburg - just 70 km from Leipzig...
The situation right now is that they cannot use the stadium in Dessau because the gras is destroyed - unknown persons have put poison on it... Where and when the match can be played is open now...
Hopp, VW and Bayer all invested heavily in a "natural choice" - they were associated with the clubs for a long time. While it's still not great to have those teams due to their money/fan mismatch and therefore diminishing overall interest in the first league, it is still at least a case of clubs and investors being related for a long time and for reasons that aren't caused by marketing opportunities.
If they were just focused on that we would have Bayer Köln instead of Bayer Leverkusen or something like that.
RB Leipzig on the other hand were only created as a marketing device. There is no natural relation between Red Bull and SSV Markranstädt.
Swiss Ramble did their usual thorough work regarding Bayern‘s finances. Well worth a read since it shows the national Nd European peers.
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Is that why he plays like you only live once?
Hope he’s back to full health.
He’s obviously been a great keeper and I don’t watch him every game, but the fair share of games I do see Bayern in the UCL it always feels like he makes a mistake every match.
Do you guys want Ronaldo?
Siiiüüüüüüüü!
Bayern to deny any interest (again) in 3..2..1…
I think we have now reached a point in his career where Bayern doesn't even have to deny it because it is too absurd.
Please go back to being FC Hollywood again.
I cringe at the thought
I'm losing count, but I think that's the 3rd rejection from Bayern alone. One almost wants to feel for Ronaldo, but then one remembers what an insufferable prick he is.
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Weird decision even if he is bedding in and finding his feet. Still in all cups, made light work of PSG etc.
Holy shit that is big news!
He's got a win rate of 71%, beat PSG what more do they want ?
Another half season CL win for Tuchel on the cards
Win the Bundesliga more comfortably I expect.