Fergie - "I only ever had 4 world class players"

[SerenityValley]

Hello Leroy the Red. Did you put any money in bitcoin like I asked?

 

[Josh 76]

There isn't a single season in Giggs career where he reached Messi Best Pele levels.

There isn't a single player that reached Messi and Pele (Maradona) levels full stop.

What season are you referring to where George Best reached a level where Giggs never?

 

[Moby]

There isn't a single player that reached Messi and Pele (Maradona) levels full stop.

What season are you referring to where George Best reached a level where Giggs never?

The one where he was voted the best player in the world.

 

[Jezpeza]

One question these comments ask is how on earth Fergie thought the club could cope with losing 3 of the only 4 world class players he worked with, in quick succession, replacing them with the likes of Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Owen, Valencia et al?

Great point. Us losing Ronaldo and not immediately heavily investing in the squad, as oil rich owners bought other premier league teams and tv money meaning mid table teams could compete for players with us was the beginning of the mess we are in today in my opinion

 

[youngrell]

Just a personal opinion. Perhaps i should be clearer. He isn't worldclasss as a player but as a left winger, he probably reigns due to a lack of competition other than Nedved, Figo, Pires etc.

Fair enough. He does fit well within your definition of world class in your original post, though.

Out of interest, are you old enough to have watched Giggs his whole career? You can probably only count on one hand the amount of left wingers better than him since his debut.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Great point. Us losing Ronaldo and not immediately heavily investing in the squad, as oil rich owners bought other Premier League teams and tv money meaning mid table teams could compete for players with us was the beginning of the mess we are in today in my opinion

It does seem borderline negligent that we lost such invaluable players then let PL rivals make all really world class signings from that point onwards (Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Suarez etc)

Although tbf, I’m sure Fergie thought/hoped that players like Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Zaha and Kagawa would hit similar heights. As much a failure of our scouts as anything else.

 

[Josh 76]

The one where he was voted the best player in the world.

George Best never won world player of the year. It was only introduced in 1991.
I think you mean Best won an award that was also won by Oleg Blokhin in 1975.
So I take it Oleg was better than Giggs too?

 

[Moby]

George Best never won world player of the year. It was only introduced in 1991.
I think you mean Best won an award that was also won by Oleg Blokhin in 1975.
So I take it Oleg was better than Giggs too?

In terms of peak? Definitely.

 

[Brophs]

It does seem borderline negligent that we lost such invaluable players then let PL rivals make all really world class signings from that point onwards (Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Suarez etc)

Although tbf, I’m sure Fergie thought/hoped that players like Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Zaha and Kagawa would hit similar heights. As much a failure of our scouts as anything else.

This sort of thing reminds me of a thread I started quite a few years back about Fergie in the transfer market in the later years. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/did-fergie-lose-his-touch-in-the-transfer-market.391364/

For various reasons which have been done to death - and I reckon we can almost all agree that we were, in essence, trying to compete with one hand tied behind our back - we just ended up letting that side of things sort of drift and hoping we could find players that others hadn't spotted, or turn players into the finished article. However, due to the scouting and increased role data analytics plays in this sort of thing, recruitment has become a modern day arms race. Everybody is scouting everybody else now. So the ability to pick up those players who can train on well beyond themselves is reduced, because they'll usually have ended up at a big club long before they were anywhere near to being able to play at the sort of level to set themselves apart.

 

[Vidyoyo]

When you consider the amount of footballers out there, the level of those able to impact teams across the world is quite small. Most players we see playing week in and week out are indeed 'world class'. It's for that reason that I've never liked the phrase. It's elitist for the sake of elitism.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This sort of thing reminds me of a thread I started quite a few years back about Fergie in the transfer market in the later years. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/did-Fergie-lose-his-touch-in-the-transfer-market.391364/

For various reasons which have been done to death - and I reckon we can almost all agree that we were, in essence, trying to compete with one hand tied behind our back - we just ended up letting that side of things sort of drift and hoping we could find players that others hadn't spotted, or turn players into the finished article. However, due to the scouting and increased role data analytics plays in this sort of thing, recruitment has become a modern day arms race. Everybody is scouting everybody else now. So the ability to pick up those players who can train on well beyond themselves is reduced, because they'll usually have ended up at a big club long before they were anywhere near to being able to play at the sort of level to set themselves apart.

Yup. Been a real sea change in the way PL clubs recruit. Arsene Wenger being another victim, who never recovered from other clubs starting to compete for the cream of the young talent coming through in France. Ever since the Ronaldo sale we seem to have either been outbid for really obvious stars (e.g. Hazard) and out-scouted for the up and comers.

 

[gerdm07]

I would add Beckham with the others that have been mentioned. I'm surprised by the quote, but I guess world-class is defined differently by many.

 

[2cents]

This sort of thing reminds me of a thread I started quite a few years back about Fergie in the transfer market in the later years. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/did-Fergie-lose-his-touch-in-the-transfer-market.391364/

For various reasons which have been done to death - and I reckon we can almost all agree that we were, in essence, trying to compete with one hand tied behind our back - we just ended up letting that side of things sort of drift and hoping we could find players that others hadn't spotted, or turn players into the finished article. However, due to the scouting and increased role data analytics plays in this sort of thing, recruitment has become a modern day arms race. Everybody is scouting everybody else now. So the ability to pick up those players who can train on well beyond themselves is reduced, because they'll usually have ended up at a big club long before they were anywhere near to being able to play at the sort of level to set themselves apart.

Yup. Been a real sea change in the way PL clubs recruit. Arsene Wenger being another victim, who never recovered from other clubs starting to compete for the cream of the young talent coming through in France. Ever since the Ronaldo sale we seem to have either been outbid for really obvious stars (e.g. Hazard) and out-scouted for the up and comers.

I keep saying it, our last period of solid recruitment was 2005-06. VDS, Park, Vidic, Evra and Carrick. Since then our record in the market has been woeful and we're paying the price.

Some will argue that the 2007 summer was good, but if we consider that Nani and Anderson were probably intended to replace Giggs and Scholes, while Hargreaves was injured and Tevez fecked off, then it doesn't look so good. And don't even mention the years that followed.

 

[donkeyfish]

It does seem borderline negligent that we lost such invaluable players then let PL rivals make all really world class signings from that point onwards (Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Suarez etc)

Although tbf, I’m sure Fergie thought/hoped that players like Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Zaha and Kagawa would hit similar heights. As much a failure of our scouts as anything else.

The youth team was excellent around 2010-11 as well, wouldn't surprise me if he thought that would provide more first-team regulars than it has.

 

[Le Red]

More like "legendary for Man. Utd." rather than world class.
Also, Robin van Persie.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Everyone has a different criteria of what a world class player is. Fergie never was one to be too generous with praise and superlatives but he’s wrong on this one. By today’s standards you could probably make a list at least 10 genuine world class players he had in his time. Being ultra critical probably would bring that down to 6-8 but it’s definitely more than four

 

[shamans]

Everyone does have a different criteria. It's all just opinions.

 

[shamans]

More like "legendary for Man. Utd." rather than world class.
Also, Robin Van Persie.

Rooney is ten times more worthy than Van Persie. RVP had one incredible season. Rooney had an incredible decade with us.

 

[JohnnyKills]

The phrase world-class means different things to different people. Perhaps he means that the player has to be the best in the world in their position.

Or maybe he's applied an absolute standard to all footballers, based purely on their skill and talent, without taking position into account. In that case, it's hard to argue any defender is world-class as creative players will always be more skillful.

Still, it seems a weird comment to make. I'd certainly have said the following were world-class at some stage or other:

Ince
Keane
Stam
Schmeichel
Ferdinand
Robson

 

[RW2]

The reason why Ferguson left out Keane is sheer nastiness.

He says the others (Cantona, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo) changed matches.

Well United would not have won the 1999 Champions League without Keane. Fergie knows this but allows a spat with Keane to screen out his professionalism.

 

[Jezpeza]

It does seem borderline negligent that we lost such invaluable players then let PL rivals make all really world class signings from that point onwards (Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Suarez etc)

Although tbf, I’m sure Fergie thought/hoped that players like Nani, Anderson, Obertan, Zaha and Kagawa would hit similar heights. As much a failure of our scouts as anything else.

I agree with that. Nani was world class some days and a pub player the next. Infuriated me but ultimately if you can’t perform consistently what’s the point. Zaha has proved his quality at Palace now and I think we have him the boot too early he’d be a useful option on the right wing about now. But we have majorly missed out on other targets. I also question the scouting and some opinions that we want younger players. Players like Lenglet, Odriozola, Malcom all moved this summer for less than 100m combined and we didn’t even sniff at them. Didn’t even seem to be on our radar

 

[Himannv]

Just a personal opinion. Perhaps i should be clearer. He isn't worldclasss as a player but as a left winger, he probably reigns due to a lack of competition other than Nedved, Figo, Pires etc.

Pires isn't in his league and Figo is a right winger.

I do agree that he's one of the best LWs of all time though. Not many are better. Best, Gento, and Czibor are right up there and maybe Blokhin, Dzajic, and Nedved, but apart from that he doesn't have any competition IMO.

 

[billybee99]

What season are you referring to where George Best reached a level where Giggs never?

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There isn't a single player that reached Messi and Pele (Maradona) levels full stop.

What season are you referring to where George Best reached a level where Giggs never?

The one where he won the Balón D'or.

 

[mitchmouse]

Controversial...

we had the best keeper in the world at the time and one of the greatest of all time, but maybe keepers don't count! Plus Beckham was surely a world-class winger

 

[Hanky panky]

If Schmeichel wasn't world class, then there is no goalkeeper who is. Or maybe only Buffon? Schmeichel is top10 GK ever, maybe even top5 with Yashin, Buffon, Casillas and somebody fifth.

 

[Mal donaghy]

Jaap stam worlds best centre back between 98/01 easy.

 

[TsuWave]

Plus Beckham was surely a world-class winger

he wasn't

 

[Mal donaghy]

And omitting David Beckham suggest a bitterness, cause he was word class and some.

 

[Skills]

Well he's wrong, just by the definition that Rio, Vidic and Stam each were at some point the best CB on the planet while they played under him. Same for Schmeichel in the keeper position.

Even the harshest of critics can't make a criteria that manages to exclude any of them.

 

[The Cat]

The state of this thread.

90% of comments do not even know how he clarified what he was talking about in the book. He made it clear he was not talking about goalkeepers, defenders or holding midfielders. He had very specific criteria he was talking about.

 

[poleglass red]

The state of this thread.

90% of comments do not even know how he clarified what he was talking about in the book. He made it clear he was not talking about goalkeepers, defenders or holding midfielders. He had very specific criteria he was talking about.

been so long since I read that nonsense of a book, how exactly did he phrase it. I know in subsequent interviews he explained it by referring to players who made an impact in games, which makes his reference to Cantona strange over say players like Becks and Keane, as Eric for all his greatness never shone for us in Europe, whereas Becks and Keane shone for us in that competition.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Interestingly, Fergie mentioned Rooney as one of his world class players in 2005. Maybe the fall out changed his mind.

Bit of a disservice there to some of the world class defenders he’s had also. A big part of why we didn’t need a traditional DM as such in 2008 was because we had a fantastic defence who could hold their own individually. What Jose would do to have defenders like that today...

 

[Cee90]

Love SAF, but it’s fair to say he is talking bollocks here.

 

[Rossa]

I agree with Fergie, there is the generic world class term and there is actual world class.

Scholes Giggs Ronaldo and Cantona were street levels above the rest. Vidic Rio Peter Evra were the best at that specific time but I wouldn't not put the close to Messi Best Pele. I think that's what Fergie is trying to define, untouchable players.

But big Pete is at least the goalie that Giggs is the winger in the history of the game.

 

[reddaz71]

Must mean 4 legendary players because Van Nistelrooy, Giggs, Schmeichel,Blanc and a multitude of others were absolutely world class in Ferguson's time as manager.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Context!
~ SAF is talking about creative attacking/attacking creativity that can made huge differences, often always the deciding factor in us winning games. Those 4 players in his eyes are the best at this and stood out the most than the rest of the many fantastic players he have managed, which is fair. Let's face it -- those 4 are so genius in making unpredictable attacking plays in many games.

Also tbh, those 4 are the players he most fond of, and we know if we have good memory and feeling of players we usually rate them better. I mean we know how Heinze and Tevez are being rated before and after they made those "problems". As does Rooney for staying too long becoming a villain in the end in the eyes of many vocal fans.

Context!
So many harsh criticisms geez just because fav players are not included by SAF.
Classic example of misinterpreting few words taken out of context, SAF explained it plenty enough.

Again.. Context!
It's a single specific criteria -- attacking creativity that naturally make huge influence in winning games.
\_a fitting way of seeing considering we know how he sees football as his teams are build on this idea, the focus/playstyle is to create and attack.

That said, I am interested to know whom our players SAF thinks are world class in a more general overall criteria, not just the attacking players.

 

[Sandikan]

I think sir fergie meant "most influential attacking players i haven't fallen out with".

Which explains not only why an all time great like schmeichel doesn't get in there, or best in generation defenders like ferdinand and stam.
Similar with keane and robson.

Also explaining why beckham rooney and van nistelrooy don't get in the picture.
Although beckham is criminally underrated due to not staying as long as scholes and giggs.
I defy anyone to say beckham wasn't top class when viewing the treble season video.
Still the best crosser most of us have ever seen

 

[MC89]

Andy( better then schmeichel) goram was 100% world class, best goalkeeper ever seen, absolutely despise the prick but what a goalie

Henrik...... enough said

 

[afrocentricity]

Fits in with the idea that he never used superlatives to praise his players, only a simple "well done" in almost all scenarios. He set an exceptionally high bar but it's interesting that Cantona stands above Keane, Beckham and Rooney.

Not sure about the last one actually. Do most people think Cantona was better than Rooney?

Yes.

 

[Irwin99]

I generally like it when people use a more narrow and exclusive definition of World class as it's used too much these days but SAF's choice/criteria is a little ...off. Cantona and Ronaldo are obvious, being the stars of the 94 and 08 teams. But if Scholes and Giggs make the grade then Keane, Rio, Stam and even Rooney should be there too.