FIFA end their ban on Russia's U17 boys and girls national football teams

[OldTrevil]

Banning Russian athletes of any kind has been utterly stupid and simply a daily reminder of the hypocritical and authoritarian nature of western dominated institutions.
If the same rules were to be applied, no athlete from NATO members would be allowed on any international competition after the multitude of countries destroyed and millions of men, women and children that have been killed by NATO's invasion and supported invasions. Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan just to name a few of the infamous ones.

 

[VorZakone]

Banning Russian athletes of any kind has been utterly stupid and simply a daily reminder of the hypocritical and authoritarian nature of western dominated institutions.
If the same rules were to be applied, no athlete from NATO members would be allowed on any international competition after the multitude of countries destroyed and millions of men, women and children that have been killed by NATO's invasion and supported invasions. Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan just to name a few of the infamous ones.

NATO invasion of Yugoslavia? Or was it an intervention to stop Serbian military actions?

 

[Raoul]

It's the actions of the Russian society. They are part of it. Don't make that one man crap talk. The support is overwhelming and they don't back down. Ukranian kids can't have a normal life but we want to normalize Russian kids lives. That's why that country and society never changes.

Russia is a dictatorship of one person, so no it’s not the actions of the society. Their government is imposed on them, which is how autocracies generally work. Elections are rigged and perceptions of this being some sort of all of Russia effort are not grounded in reality. One man is responsible for all of this along with his domestic security and propaganda apparatus.

The kids have nothing to do with any of it and if they are willing to abide by guidelines of not promoting the war during tournaments then there’s no valid reason to exclude them, the same way Russian tennis players compete as long as they remain within guidelines.

 

[Sly]

It's infuriating to me to read some of the stuff written here and in other websites. But it doesn't compare with the daily anguish and suffering of my wife. This normalization has taken a toll on her. She senses that things are about to take an even worse turn for her country. She feels that western Ukrainian support is waning and it's a question of one or two years for the collapse of her country and that only western Ukraine will survive. I think it's a very pessimistic view but how can I blame her. It will start with russian kids but it will snowball into complete normalization. It's not like Ukraine hasn't been betrayed before.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

Seems pretty logical to me to allow minors that don't have voting rights (to the best of my knowledge) to participate in sport.

 

[maniak]

It's infuriating to me to read some of the stuff written here and in other websites. But it doesn't compare with the daily anguish and suffering of my wife. This normalization has taken a toll on her. She senses that things are about to take an even worse turn for her country. She feels that western Ukrainian support is waning and it's a question of one or two years for the collapse of her country and that only western Ukraine will survive. I think it's a very pessimistic view but how can I blame her. It will start with russian kids but it will snowball into complete normalization. It's not like Ukraine hasn't been betrayed before.

I have an ukrainian friend and she feels exactly the same, it's a matter of time before the west normalizes this war as "oh well it's the way it is", people grow tired of it by season 4 or 5 and move on.

 

[DickDastardly]

In before the lock!

 

[Sly]

Russia is a dictatorship of one person, so no it’s not the actions of the society. Their government is imposed on them, which is how autocracies generally work. Elections are rigged and perceptions of this being some sort of all of Russia effort are not grounded in reality. One man is responsible for all of this along with his domestic security and propaganda apparatus.

The kids have nothing to do with any of it and if they are willing to abide by guidelines of not promoting the war during tournaments then there’s no valid reason to exclude them, the same way Russian tennis players compete as long as they remain within guidelines.

The society stands behind Putin and there is a concrete Russian mindset. Read the disgusting things Navalny writes about Ukraine. Read what the so called Russian opposition says about Ukraine.

I don't need political theory explanations. I know and understand what an autocratic regime is. I also know that there are certain countries, with specific circunstances and mindsets.

Look I respect and agree with most of your views. I this case we will have to agree to disagree. It's only my opinion but I hold all russian society accountable.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

I have an ukrainian friend and she feels exactly the same, it's a matter of time before the west normalizes this war as "oh well it's the way it is", people grow tired of it by season 4 or 5 and move on.

This idea isn't true. I'm from the west and I will never forget Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I won't forgive Russia either. Everyone I know feels the same way.

 

[klsv]

Banning Russian athletes of any kind has been utterly stupid and simply a daily reminder of the hypocritical and authoritarian nature of western dominated institutions.
If the same rules were to be applied, no athlete from NATO members would be allowed on any international competition after the multitude of countries destroyed and millions of men, women and children that have been killed by NATO's invasion and supported invasions. Libya, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan just to name a few of the infamous ones.

Why are you making it all about the west? The FA's of several eastern European countries, most affected by the Russian imperialism, have said they won't participate in any tournaments featuring the Russian team and won't play against them.

 

[maniak]

This idea isn't true. I'm from the west and I will never forget Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I won't forgive Russia either. Everyone I know feels the same way.

I know plenty of people (who don't really follow current events beyond watching the evening news) who now look at the war in ukraine as they look at what happens in syria, yemen, etc. It's just something that is and if there were a referendum, I bet most would vote to give the russians some land and put an end to the whole thing.

 

[Raoul]

The society stands behind Putin and there is a concrete Russian mindset. Read the disgusting things Navalny writes about Ukraine. Read what the so called Russian opposition says about Ukraine.

I don't need political theory explanations. I know and understand what an autocratic regime is. I also know that there are certain countries, with specific circunstances and mindsets.

Look I respect and agree with most of your views. I this case we will have to agree to disagree. It's only my opinion but I hold all russian society accountable.

Sorry but Navalny has nothing to do with this. The invasion wouldn’t have happened if not for the actions (miscalculations) of one man. Russians are bombarded with 24/7 hyper nationalist propaganda, so naturally this influences a segment of the population. This of course has nothing to with teenagers playing in football tournaments, just like Russian tennis players being allowed to play at Wimbledon hasn’t in any way emboldened Putin.

We have to stop vilifying people who don’t have any say in the matter.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

I know plenty of people (who don't really follow current events beyond watching the evening news) who now look at the war in ukraine as they look at what happens in syria, yemen, etc. It's just something that is and if there were a referendum, I bet most would vote to give the russians some land and put an end to the whole thing.

That's exactly why referendums rarely occur. There's a reason why a representative democracy has been shown to be the best form of government.

 

[maniak]

That's exactly why referendums rarely occur. There's a reason why a representative democracy has been shown to be the best form of government.

I gave that as an example of public sentiment, which was what we were talking about. If you think people a continent away from ukraine will feel this war as something really important for along time, you haven't been paying attention to human history.

 

[Sly]

I know plenty of people (who don't really follow current events beyond watching the evening news) who now look at the war in ukraine as they look at what happens in syria, yemen, etc. It's just something that is and if there were a referendum, I bet most would vote to give the russians some land and put an end to the whole thing.

Correct. The idea is to stop the suffering and prevent world War 3. The reality it's a hassle dealing with inflation, cost of living and fuel prices. When I ask them about ukranian people in occupied territories, they just shrug. When I ask them on why should we trust Russia on anything as I mention Ukranian nuclear weapons agreement, minsk agreement, russian continuous imperialist policies, they quickly change the subject to something else.

 

[adexkola]

That's exactly why referendums rarely occur. There's a reason why a representative democracy has been shown to be the best form of government.

I don't think this has been shown, no.

 

[That_Bloke]

It's a way to put further pressure on the people who did. It's like saying there's no point having economic sanctions against Russia.

It never worked in the past and it never will. Not with autocracies. Only the normal folks will suffer, without changing anything to the rest of the situation. I thought people would be wiser by now.

Banning the kids was pure PR and a daft decision.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

I gave that as an example of public sentiment, which was what we were talking about. If you think people a continent away from ukraine will feel this war as something really important for along time, you haven't been paying attention to human history.

I get your point. However, people in my country which is Canada are being impacted by the invasion of Ukraine. That impact will implore some portion of Canadians to take action.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

For a couple of decades I believe.

For 3 decades (1962-1992). South Africa returned to the Olympic movement just in time for Barcelona 1992.

Have we learned feck all from that lenghty ban? If such decision is a necessary evil to force change no matter how long it will take, then why not? I'm only glad that the IIHF has shown far more balls than FIFA did, even we know the rich heritage that Russian ice hockey has.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

I don't think this has been shown, no.

What form should government take then?

 

[maniak]

I get your point. However, people in my country which is Canada are being impacted by the invasion of Ukraine. That impact will implore some portion of Canadians to take action.

May I ask how they're being impacted?

 

[Sly]

Sorry but Navalny has nothing to do with this. The invasion wouldn’t have happened if not for the actions (miscalculations) of one man. Russians are bombarded with 24/7 hyper nationalist propaganda, so naturally this influences a segment of the population. This of course has nothing to with teenagers playing in football tournaments, just like Russian tennis players being allowed to play at Wimbledon hasn’t in any way emboldened Putin.

We have to stop vilifying people who don’t have any say in the matter.

Of course Navalny has to do with this. It illustrates Russian mindset towards Ukraine, or Georgia for example, and why the Russian society needs to be held accountable. They will continue to be vilified by me because they are pretty confortable and support what's happening in Ukraine. Don't take it the wrong way but I think you are extremely naive in what concerns Russian society and their imperialist mindset. They treat people from former Soviet countries like trash and think they are superior. They don't give a damn about Ukraninans. I won't give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually do something to change the status quo.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

May I ask how they're being impacted?

Ukrainian refugees are entering Canada, whether good or bad this will have an impact. The price of bread has increased at a rate 3 times that of inflation partly because of the invasion of Ukraine. I could go on. Natural gas prices, oil prices, etc.

 

[That_Bloke]

Good point. There are Russian tennis players who can compete a Wimbledon as long as they promise to not express support for the invasion and sign statements to affirm their neutrality. These kids have done nothing beyond the misfortune of where they happened to be born.

Exactly. As long as they don't use tournaments as platform to support the invasion, there's absolutely no reason to ban russian athletes from international competitions.

 

[maniak]

Ukrainian refugees are entering Canada, whether good or bad this will have an impact. The price of bread has increased at a rate 3 times that of inflation partly because of the invasion of Ukraine. I could go on. Natural gas prices, oil prices, etc.

Ok I get it, but for the people having their daily lives affected by it, why wouldn't they want the war to end as soon as possible, even if it implied giving russia some land? If they're only worried about it ending, then how it ends is secondary.

 

[Raoul]

Of course Navalny has to do with this. It illustrates Russian mindset towards Ukraine, Georgia and why the Russian society needs to be held accountable. They will continue to be vilified by me because they are pretty confortable and support what's happening in Ukraine. Don't take it the wrong way but I think you are extremely naive in what concerns Russian society and their imperialist mindset. They treat people from former Soviet countries like trash and think they are superior. They don't give a damn about Ukraninans. I won't give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually do something to change the status quo.

Navalny’s mindset is largely based around Crimea being Russian, which is a broadly held view among many Russians and even people who lived in Crimea pre-2014. I visited Simferopol a few years before and found this out first hand. Everyone was pro-Russian.

Navalny has been predictably critical of Putin’s actions from 2014 onwards.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/wo...porters-to-protest-russias-actions-in-ukraine

 

[Thom Merrilin]

Ok I get it, but for the people having their daily lives affected by it, why wouldn't they want the war to end as soon as possible, even if it implied giving russia some land? If they're only worried about it ending, then how it ends is secondary.

Perhaps a person of below average intelligence would think that. My perspective is more aligned with the phrase "give them an inch and they'll take a mile".

 

[adexkola]

What form should government take then?

I'm disputing the idea that representative democracy has been shown to be the best form of government. It has great and awful examples.

I like the idea of a benevolent dictatorship (think Singapore under LKY), but I wouldn't say it's been shown to be the best. People are stupid and democracies have to cater for this unfortunately.

 

[maniak]

Exactly. As long as they don't use tournaments as platform to support the invasion, there's absolutely no reason to ban russian athletes from international competitions.

There are trillions of articles and papers explaining how russia uses sports as political propaganda. In dictatorships, you can't separate politics from sports, they are a tool for the regime.

 

[Sly]

Exactly. As long as they don't use tournaments as platform to support the invasion, there's absolutely no reason to ban russian athletes from international competitions.

Yes because they would never do that.

 

[maniak]

Perhaps a person of below average intelligence would think that. My perspective is more aligned with the phrase "give them an inch and they'll take a mile".

I wouldn't put it down to intelligence, it's just a normal human mechanism. Are you as angry with saudi arabia for bombing civilians in yemen as you are with russia for doing the same to ukrainians? If you are, you are part of a very small minority.

After a while, people tend to care about what's close to them and affects them daily. Ukraine being invaded had the initial shock value with 24 hour a day coverage. That's fading away...

 

[That_Bloke]

Yes because they would never do that.

Then ban this guy. But as long as they abide to the rules, I don't see why they should be punished for something not only they didn't do but also where they absolutely have no control or say about.

Collective punishment has been proven throughout history to be one of the most inefficient methods to get people to do something and tends to achieve the exact opposite.

 

[maniak]

We have to stop vilifying people who don’t have any say in the matter.

Where do you draw the line? Should a farmer be punished by sanctions? Or a factory worker? A mcdonalds cashier? A tourist? Do any of these people have any control over government policies in russia?

 

[maniak]

Then ban this guy. But as long as they abide to the rules, I don't see why they should be punished for something not only they didn't do but also where they absolutely have no control or say about.

If things like sports go back to normal, doesn't that help the regime sell the idea to their people that the way they're leading the country is also normal?

 

[Sly]

Navalny’s mindset is largely based around Crimea being Russian, which is a broadly held view among many Russians and even people who lived in Crimea pre-2014. I visited Simferopol a few years before and found this out first hand. Everyone was pro-Russian.

Navalny has been predictably critical of Putin’s actions from 2014 onwards.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/wo...porters-to-protest-russias-actions-in-ukraine

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/3/4/why-ukraine-is-wary-of-the-russian-opposition

It's not only about Crimea. I've already told you about the particular Russian mindset. Read what Navalny said about Georgia. It was the specific reason why I mentioned it in my previous post. There's a reason why Ukrainians single out and don't trust Navalny. He supposedly represents the opposition and this is where he stood.

 

[That_Bloke]

There are trillions of articles and papers explaining how russia uses sports as political propaganda. In dictatorships, you can't separate politics from sports, they are a tool for the regime.

You're punishing people, who I repeat have no hand in what's happening, not the regime. If you can't see how unfair what you're suggesting is, then there's absolutely nothing else to say.

 

[maniak]

You're punishing people, who I repeat have no hand in what's happening, not the regime. If you can't see how unfair what you're suggesting is, then there's absolutely nothing else to say.

Where do you draw the line? Should a farmer be punished by sanctions? Or a factory worker? A mcdonalds cashier? A tourist? Do any of these people have any control over government policies in russia?

 

[RedSky]

Nah feck this. You've got Ukrainian children that have been murdered, raped, had life altering injuries, parents killed and will no doubt carry the effect of this invasion for decades but a few Russian children can't play International football and it's unfair? feck that.

Every Russian should be banned from all sports as far as I'm concerned until the War is resolved. If Russians get upset, blame the man responsible.

 

[That_Bloke]

If things like sports go back to normal, doesn't that help the regime sell the idea to their people that the way they're leading the country is also normal?

No, it doesn't. And even if it did, it wouldn't change anything to the matter.

I've been born and raised under an authocracy, survived a civil war and was at the wrong end of these so called sanctions y'all are supporting. You have no idea how much these measures are akin to pissing in the sand for these regimes. They just don't give a feck.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

I'm disputing the idea that representative democracy has been shown to be the best form of government. It has great and awful examples.

I like the idea of a benevolent dictatorship (think Singapore under LKY), but I wouldn't say it's been shown to be the best. People are stupid and democracies have to cater for this unfortunately.

I actually agree. Benevolent dictatorship has been shown to work really well, another example is El Salvador. However that still has the word "dictator" in its title and we've also seen how terrible that can be. A government must be sustainable and a dictatorship isn't by definition.