If they could survive more than 5 minutes of having people kicking lumps out of them.
Football in the olden days (pre-1990's) was crap, discuss.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Think people are confusing the standard of football vs. the excitement gleaned from it - the standard is at its best but watching two evenly matched teams successfully passing to eachother over an extended amount of time isn't exciting. Mistakes, quick passes and dribbling are what brings excitement to the game (at least for most people) and with the level of preparation and advancements at its highest ever, those elements are rarer.
With the standard of athleticism being apportioned out across the board, only the truly gifted can utilise dribbling skills to get pass their opponent. I honestly think if you plonked the modern day Messi (or at least the 2010 version) in a game in the 60s, he'd probably get 5+ goals by simply getting the ball on the halfway line and dribbling past everyone. I'm basing that on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but it's just what I reckon.
With the standard of athleticism being apportioned out across the board, only the truly gifted can utilise dribbling skills to get pass their opponent. I honestly think if you plonked the modern day Messi (or at least the 2010 version) in a game in the 60s, he'd probably get 5+ goals by simply getting the ball on the halfway line and dribbling past everyone. I'm basing that on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but it's just what I reckon.
I don't think there's any doubt that football is played to a higher standard than it used to be. Players are fitter, stronger, faster for all the reasons that have already been mentioned. However, what I will say is that professional sports in general is a form of entertainment and as far as I'm concerned football was much more bloody entertaining "when I were a lad." Today I think the game is far too predictable, almost sterile at times. There is a dearth of, for want of a better terminology, "characters" in the game. I remember watching Barcelona sometimes (circa 2009-10) and I know deep down that what they were doing as far as football was concerned may well have been at a level that nobody else has ever reached. Thing is, they played that way week in, week out and eventually the tiki-taka approach although aesthetically pleasing just got old for me. It may be that I'm just an auld arse, yearning for a bygone era, but when I was young I'd get so excited just anticipating United playing on a Saturday afternoon. It's not the same now, and I miss it.
I think he'd trudge through the 6 inches of mud, get hacked down by the first big burly CB that came near him, and then give the whole thing up as a bad job.
they probably wouldn't have been able to dribble it 15 yards due to the pitches being proverbial tettie fields never mind half the pitch, and if they want past one or two players the 3rd would have hoofed them 20 foot into the air for nothing more than a free kick
I'd go one further and say regardless of how 'good' their play was in 09/10 it was downright tedious, and for me personally almost unwatchable.
Skill wise he'd be great but would he have the mentality to get hacked down over and over, game after game? That is what you have to appreciate about the old generation as well. That combined with the fact that any injury could be the end of your career back then. While there are some poor defending at times it would be brutal and effective otherwise in a way it could never be these days.
After all you are watching mostly compilations of greats, which is the one moment they ridicule the defenders the most. If you watch full games you'd see the times when the defending was good as well.
Are Ronaldo and Messi better in 2017 than they were in 2010? surely they should be better now because footballing is on a continuous upwards curve and medicine is advancing all the time, so they should be fitter now than they were in 2010.
Is the football in 2017 better quality than the football we saw in 2008 across the spectrum.
Is the football in 2017 better quality than the football we saw in 2008 across the spectrum.
The quality of the football in the 63 Final posted doesn't seem that bad. The goalkeepers are rubbish, granted, but you'd get the same watching a Simon Mignolet compilation. And the pitch looks pretty good, especially compared to the first picture. I understand the sentiment though, quite often I might see some old highlights and there's acres of space in midfield and an awful quality of football on show. I don't think that Final video or those of Pele and Cruyff show that at all though.
I hear that defenders lobbed grenades at those too fleet footed to axe down. Simpler times.
Depends how far back you go, but to say guys like Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer etc couldn't hack it in the modern game is ludicrous. Special talents like that would adjust tear up any era.
I don't think these burly defenders would get any where near him to kick him down though. Nothing suggests Messi would shirk dribbling if he did get mauled down by these mythical burly men, he gets mowed down at greater speeds by finely tuned athletes each game and never has. I'm not saying it's the same as back in the day, the tackles back then could be horrendous, I just doubt many of them would get close enough to him.
I am watching football ince mid-late 90s. All i can say is that the 2010 WC and the last 2 Euros are the worst things that my eyes have seen. Judging by these, then in my eyes football, as an entertainment, has regressed. Maybe this is down to nostalgia, or to the extremely boring barca and spanish tiki taka and the united of 2013-2016, but i just dont feel the same about football anymore, i think is getting more boring every year. But i am still hopeful. We are far more entertaining now, and thats why i ll support jose even without cl, and teams like monaco are in the top playing free flow attacking football coached by a manager famous for being defensive. Maybe the boring era that began with tiki taka will come to an end.
Baddiel and Skinner used to have a feature on fantasy football called "old football was rubbish". In 20 years people will say the premier league was dire compared to the intergalactic World Series sponsored by Budweiser that we'll be playing in then.
Think it's worth remembering our recent game away to Rostov when it comes to thinking about what players feel comfortable/able to do with a ball at their feet on terrible surfaces. I'd say, going by pictures and general footage from decades gone by, that the pitch we played on in Rostov would not have been uncommon in the 60/70/80s. It was also a pitch that our players openly admitted afterwards that they couldn't even attempt to dribble on.
For players like Pele, Best and Cruyff to routinely pick up the ball and carry it the way did on those pitches, with those balls, and - most notably - with defenders going for them as much as the ball, that takes both guts and skills in equal measure. For them to be able to make it look relatively effortless and easy, which seems to be the main issue the OP has with some of the clips posted, is also the reason why they were so incredible. Football by them was easy and effortless and fun and dynamic when everything pointed towards a brand of football that couldn't be. Why did defenders look unable to contend with it competently? Because they basically had 3 red cards by todays standards in terms of what they could get away with per game and they weren't used to facing that sort of attack on a regular basis.
For players like Pele, Best and Cruyff to routinely pick up the ball and carry it the way did on those pitches, with those balls, and - most notably - with defenders going for them as much as the ball, that takes both guts and skills in equal measure. For them to be able to make it look relatively effortless and easy, which seems to be the main issue the OP has with some of the clips posted, is also the reason why they were so incredible. Football by them was easy and effortless and fun and dynamic when everything pointed towards a brand of football that couldn't be. Why did defenders look unable to contend with it competently? Because they basically had 3 red cards by todays standards in terms of what they could get away with per game and they weren't used to facing that sort of attack on a regular basis.
Cannot stop laughing at the fact that it had to be a Chelsea fan to come up with this.
To be fair by the time I got to that part I was being more than a little tongue in cheek, but the point wasn't about individual players anyway it was about the overall standard of the game.
It's also the age factor. You were considered a little boy at 25-30. These guys they rolled out were in their 50's. They had a totally different concept of age back then. You watch John Wayne on the movies and you wonder why the hell he's in relationships with 18 year old women when he's 56 years himself. That was the norm regarding superstars back then.
I think it's an interesting topic and I wrote a little piece on it in the Sir Bobby Charlton thread.
60 Years ago today Sir Bobby played his 1st game for Utd
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/60-...ed-his-1st-game-for-utd.422477/#post-19891382
I think it's an interesting topic and I wrote a little piece on it in the Sir Bobby Charlton thread.
60 Years ago today Sir Bobby played his 1st game for Utd
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/60-...ed-his-1st-game-for-utd.422477/#post-19891382
Because it's more predictable eh.
You are not talking about the same type of game.
And it's that, and that alone, which tells me Pele would be rubbish in the modern game.
Is that video supposed to help your case?
What do you mean here? People didn't learn how to hit a baseball better in the last 20 years, they just benefited from modern sports science (and steroids) to break the home run records. And is Tom Brady's technique in throwing really better than Joe Montana? I don't see other sports advanced very much in technique at all either, and if you listen to some old school basketball coaches, they might say actual shooting technique in basketball has regressed with the focus on dunking in modern times.
Back in the day the players were ordinary people and it was about scoring not keeping a clean sheet. It was so much more entertaining. If the players of old had the same benefits as those of today they would be just as good. Entertainmentwise it was so much better so to me it was better in the old days
I prefer todays football. I remember in the 70's how games could be killed off by the pass back to the goal keeper who was allowed to pick it up. It was awful. If a team went up 1-0 in the first 10 minutes we would sometimes have to watch 80 minutes of the keeper picking the ball up and holding it for a while after his own striker had sent a long ball back to him. Entertainment wise I prefer today. (and George Best wasnt an ordinary person...)Back in the day the players were ordinary people and it was about scoring not keeping a clean sheet. It was so much more entertaining. If the players of old had the same benefits as those of today they would be just as good. Entertainmentwise it was so much better so to me it was better in the old days
Pele is the most overrated footballer of all time. You look at the footage of him playing and you wonder if it's football you're watching. They kick the ball and it looks like they've just kicked a rotten fruit. I've seen poor children in Africa have better equipment. If you'd put Pele on the pitch today in a premiership match (him obviously being young) he'd look like a person stepping out of the pub at 02:15am (any given day).
These fifa 17 ratings gives me a head ache. 95??? Are you fecking kidding me? I'd like to invent a sport and then call myself the best in the world at it mainly because nobody else have had the time to play it. That's how things were. Back then you'd be a premiership player if you had a pair of shoes and could hit the ball (and I mean actually hit the ball!). Accuracy and such things were not even heard of. It was a flipper game and all you could do was hope that the ball would somehow end up in that rectangular box - hopefully the oppositions box.
People would probably not be able to understand the low standards they had. An artist was someone who could move the "ball" from one foot to the other - once. Fitness as we know it didn't exist at all. Players wanted to be masculine. A guy like Giggs and his hairy chest had been great stuff. A mustache was preferred to 6 pack. They didn't even know how to train properly. They had these jokes that you see on tv at times. Like WHAAAT.
Yeah, you try to figure out the results they received in the "gymnastic room".
So to me these guys like Bobby, Pele etc are just a big yawn.
Pele is the most overrated footballer of all time. You look at the footage of him playing and you wonder if it's football you're watching. They kick the ball and it looks like they've just kicked a rotten fruit. I've seen poor children in Africa have better equipment. If you'd put Pele on the pitch today in a premiership match (him obviously being young) he'd look like a person stepping out of the pub at 02:15am (any given day).
These fifa 17 ratings gives me a head ache. 95??? Are you fecking kidding me? I'd like to invent a sport and then call myself the best in the world at it mainly because nobody else have had the time to play it. That's how things were. Back then you'd be a premiership player if you had a pair of shoes and could hit the ball (and I mean actually hit the ball!). Accuracy and such things were not even heard of. It was a flipper game and all you could do was hope that the ball would somehow end up in that rectangular box - hopefully the oppositions box.
People would probably not be able to understand the low standards they had. An artist was someone who could move the "ball" from one foot to the other - once. Fitness as we know it didn't exist at all. Players wanted to be masculine. A guy like Giggs and his hairy chest had been great stuff. A mustache was preferred to 6 pack. They didn't even know how to train properly. They had these jokes that you see on tv at times. Like WHAAAT.
Yeah, you try to figure out the results they received in the "gymnastic room".
So to me these guys like Bobby, Pele etc are just a big yawn.
Sometimes ignorance is just the funniest thing to witness
The rise in free throw percentage over the years kills that myth.
Some proper tackles in those old clips. That's how I still play.
I'd love to see Sergio "peek-a-boo" Busquets play in the 70s
I'd love to see Sergio "peek-a-boo" Busquets play in the 70s
I agree it was pretty shit, although I've only watched those old matches which are shown on sky sports or sky one, it just looks really clumsy.
Those who say Pele and co would have been worldies today with the pitches and diets... How do you know? Would they have had the dedication?
Comparing the 2 is difficult, but if you had the choice of modern football to watch week in and week out, or classic football week in and week out (as in that style but all live obviously) which would you choose?
I never really get why Pele and maradonna are always in these super dream teams. It's like asking if you would make a car out of the materials today because they're the best that we have ever had, or make a car out of parts from the past because they were the best at their time.
Game has evolved too much to say with confidence the old era would outplay the new generation. All we can go off is what we have seen and you could probably make a highlight reel of an average player in their position from this generation, and a highlight video of the old generation and I'd say the new kids would look much better.
40 years time people will be discussing this again and messi and ronaldo might look like bang average players.
Those who say Pele and co would have been worldies today with the pitches and diets... How do you know? Would they have had the dedication?
Comparing the 2 is difficult, but if you had the choice of modern football to watch week in and week out, or classic football week in and week out (as in that style but all live obviously) which would you choose?
I never really get why Pele and maradonna are always in these super dream teams. It's like asking if you would make a car out of the materials today because they're the best that we have ever had, or make a car out of parts from the past because they were the best at their time.
Game has evolved too much to say with confidence the old era would outplay the new generation. All we can go off is what we have seen and you could probably make a highlight reel of an average player in their position from this generation, and a highlight video of the old generation and I'd say the new kids would look much better.
40 years time people will be discussing this again and messi and ronaldo might look like bang average players.
Some of the tackles. This is one of my favourites. Two men try to hack Cannigia down, the third makes sure he gets the job done. In this day and age that'd be such a clear red card there'd be no debate. Here the commentator says "I'm sure the referee will do something about that".
He gets sent off, but only because of a second yellow. Lols.
This is what attackers had to deal with.
He gets sent off, but only because of a second yellow. Lols.
This is what attackers had to deal with.
Would you rather watch LVG's United or United from 1993/94.. or Busby's United 1967.
Or to make it easier, Mourinho's United v Fergies 2006-2008 vintage.
8 years difference.. has there been a progression, an evolution? Is the football played by Jose's side, so futuristic that it is incomprehensible that anyone would yearn for the good old days of 2008.
When Pele played it was like Kobe playing basketball. The defenders or tactics just weren't nearly as good as him. I mean for a period he played in a 2-3-5 formation. You have to fast forwards to the mid-80's to see proper defensive tactics evolve to the point that the attackers couldn't do that much. Rule changes opened up the game and so the tactics had to change.
The overall standard gets better. Young players get better coaching and so you've got more good players. You think Iceland just got a lucky genration? No, we got better coaching and now we're actually able to train in the winter on pitches that aren't outside or made of gravel.
OP has a point. He's not shitting on Pele or Cruyff, he's shitting on the players that were up against them. Today you can't get by on talent alone, you need to be professional. That's mentality that's not for everyone.
The overall standard gets better. Young players get better coaching and so you've got more good players. You think Iceland just got a lucky genration? No, we got better coaching and now we're actually able to train in the winter on pitches that aren't outside or made of gravel.
OP has a point. He's not shitting on Pele or Cruyff, he's shitting on the players that were up against them. Today you can't get by on talent alone, you need to be professional. That's mentality that's not for everyone.
Build a time machine and bring 27 year old Pele, get him on a PL match and he will definitely look average at best or get 1 year old Pele to 1991, let him develop in the modern football era and watch him become a world class star again.
Good for you! I prefer United when it used to be attack attack attack. And I prefer when teams (managers) tried to win 5-4 instead of 1-0. But each to their own and no doubt todays players are better athletes but that goes for most work. Where I work now some people used to be on the piss while working. It's all down to day and age.
Europa League a better standard of competition to the old UEFA cup? I dont think so! Would Hughes and Robson get into the United team today? Definitely! I think if Maradona, Best, Gullit or Platini had played under the current tackling rules and abolition of the back pass which used to kill games they would have set records nobody would beat
Funny but back when the keeper was allowed to pick up a back pass was when we saw lots of 1-0 wins.
Helenio Herrera says Hi
Not enough. The rule of the game. Different offside rule. More tolerance for tackler = attackers are tougher mentally & could stand their own. The ball, the pitch, the condition of travel, media coverage, scouting opponent... For them to be where they were in the history, arguably they had it tougher. And being pioneer is different than having reference with ease as media has developed much since.
And here I thought, what a surprisingly good OP after the provocative thread title
Not even talking about Pele or Cruyff, how many players today can replicate that kind of performance? Not sure that anyone else bar Messi or Hazard can control the ball in such fashion (and I'm not even counting an godawful pitch and a heavy rigid ball). And it's not like it was some historical performance by Finney, he was injured and didn't play to his full strength
What separates todays football are:
But the talent stays the same, the technique isn't improving, and it's amazing to watch some all-time greats performing
- tactics
- physical condition of the players
Very flaw logic. You know in the past you can make tackle from behind as long as ref doesn't see it as foul. Watch how tough & dangerous tackle in old football games. Messi may score 5+ goals in one game or he could be floored & had his career ended in one game if he couldn't toughen himself & adapt to the rule & condition of the game back then.
As rule of thumb, when the condition for play is not ideal, teams often play more scrappy & physical. To pull off dribble in such condition requires both different physical & mind set from nowadays dribbler (don't forget tackle from behind being allowed). You have deal with more unexpected possibilities.
And he's trying to kick another Argentine player when they ref went to check Canigia
.Many of these would be red or booking by intention alone nowadays, and it's mostly let go until a foul (deemed by refs) actually committed (not sure all the outcome, but many not get sent off especially the Korean match).
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The game started to become more globalized in the mid 80s.
Before then Italian teams could only play one non-Italian passport holder. In Spain and Germany the maximum number of non-nationals was two.
English team had few players outside of the UK and Ireland.
Now clubs have more access to South American,Eastern European,Asian and African players.
This alone has made European club football much in the bigger leagues. On the other hand if you come from South American or Eastern Europe you mightn't be too happy with it.
Before then Italian teams could only play one non-Italian passport holder. In Spain and Germany the maximum number of non-nationals was two.
English team had few players outside of the UK and Ireland.
Now clubs have more access to South American,Eastern European,Asian and African players.
This alone has made European club football much in the bigger leagues. On the other hand if you come from South American or Eastern Europe you mightn't be too happy with it.