Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

VAR - Love or Hate?


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UncleBob

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What the feck I’m saying UncleBob is the current rule on handball is shite and that we should revert back to when it was not a pen/free kick if it was deemed unintentional.

What we have seen is penalties given for ridiculous handball decisions and then a lack of consistency in following that.

A change back to the previous rules on handball imo would make it easier for the refs to decide no penalty and not have VAR overrule that decision.
The rules have only changed for the attacking team, where a handball, no matter how minimal the contact is or how unintentional it is, will be deemed a free kick if there's a goal. For the defenders the rules are the same as they've been for ages. Stop talking bollox.
 

RUCK4444

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The rules have only changed for the attacking team, where a handball, no matter how minimal the contact is or how unintentional it is, will be deemed a free kick if there's a goal. For the defenders the rules are the same as they've been for ages. Stop talking bollox.
Ok smart arse, why then have many penalties, especially at the beginning of the season been given when it’s clear ball to hand??

Regardless of when the change was made and who it affects VAR has been ruling for pathetic penalties through unintentional handball, hence the outcry in the Pool v City game when the TAA call wasn’t given (as much harsher pens have already been given.)

Your precious VAR taking every rule to the extreme and then having no consistency.

The same inconsistency we had prior to the magic fix VAR.

Wind your neck in anyway lad, you don’t agree with me then ignore me and live in denial enjoying action replays of marginal offsides.
 

sullydnl

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Ok smart arse, why then have many penalties, especially at the beginning of the season been given when it’s clear ball to hand??

Regardless of when the change was made and who it affects VAR has been ruling for pathetic penalties through unintentional handball, hence the outcry in the Pool v City game when the TAA call wasn’t given (as much harsher pens have already been given.)

Your precious VAR taking every rule to the extreme and then having no consistency.

The same inconsistency we had prior to the magic fix VAR.

Wind your neck in anyway lad, you don’t agree with me then ignore me and live in denial enjoying action replays of marginal offsides.
Actually the PL is less likely to give a handball against a defender than the CL, for example. Expressly so.
 

UncleBob

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Ok smart arse, why then have many penalties, especially at the beginning of the season been given when it’s clear ball to hand??

Regardless of when the change was made and who it affects VAR has been ruling for pathetic penalties through unintentional handball, hence the outcry in the Pool v City game when the TAA call wasn’t given (as much harsher pens have already been given.)

Your precious VAR taking every rule to the extreme and then having no consistency.

The same inconsistency we had prior to the magic fix VAR.

Wind your neck in anyway lad, you don’t agree with me then ignore me and live in denial enjoying action replays of marginal offsides.
First of all, it's blindingly obvious that you have no understanding of the rules whatsoever, nor am i fan of the way VAR is being used in England.

The Arnold situation is a funny one. Oliver should have signalled for a penalty and then VAR would've overruled it because it comes off Silva's hand.
 

RUCK4444

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Actually the PL is less likely to give a handball against a defender than the CL, for example. Expressly so.
You don’t think this season there has been a clear increase in what people what usually class as a very harsh handball?? VAR has clearly influenced these calls.
 

RUCK4444

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First of all, it's blindingly obvious that you have no understanding of the rules whatsoever, nor am i fan of the way VAR is being used in England.

The Arnold situation is a funny one. Oliver should have signalled for a penalty and then VAR would've overruled it because it comes off Silva's hand.
I’m just stating what I’ve watched in actual games. There have been clear ‘ball to hand’ instances where these have been given as penalties.

It’s been a fecking talking point for much of the season and one of people’s main gripes is the lack of consistency, this being one of the case in points.
 

sullydnl

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You don’t think this season there has been a clear increase in what people what usually class as a very harsh handball?? VAR has clearly influenced these calls.
Well because of the rule change even accidental handball by an attacker is enough to rule out a goal. So that's been a pretty obvious change this season.

In terms of handballs against defenders though, I don't think so. By my quick count VAR has only overturned a decision and awarded handball against a defender once in the PL this season, which was the penalty Martial missed against Norwich. Any other handball calls were ones the ref made initially anyway. Hardly seems an excessive impact.
 

Bearded One

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Dont know why City cannot get over the tight calls made the other day. They should blame their leaky defense for their woes more than anything else.
 

UncleBob

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I’m just stating what I’ve watched in actual games. There have been clear ‘ball to hand’ instances where these have been given as penalties.

It’s been a fecking talking point for much of the season and one of people’s main gripes is the lack of consistency, this being one of the case in points.
Learn the rules.
 

Chipper

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The rules have only changed for the attacking team, where a handball, no matter how minimal the contact is or how unintentional it is, will be deemed a free kick if there's a goal. For the defenders the rules are the same as they've been for ages. Stop talking bollox.
The laws have recently changed for defenders too. Specific mention of players making their body unnaturally bigger, and for handball to be the decision when they do was written in for the first time this season. So was saying that should a player touch the ball with their hand above shoulder height that it will be classed as handball.

It's in the IFAB Summary of Main Changes Laws of the Game document for 2019/20

It's in the Premier League's website where it talks about handball rule changes for this season


It's on the Bundesliga's website talking about rule changes

You will find it in the full laws of the game for 2019/20
(Law 12, fouls and misconduct, Handling the ball, page 104 of the pdf)

You will find no mention of such a thing in the 2018/19 laws of the game (Law 12, fouls and misconduct, Handling the ball, page 102)

A prototype of these rules were put in place for the Champions League knock out stages last season, hence there being a fair number of handballs that people disagreed with. The term 'natural silhouette' started to get mentioned for the first time before it was eventually worded 'unaturally bigger'. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47471380 & https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stricter-handball-rules-in-champions-league-warns-uefa-6hh0gs38n

One of the very first tournaments to officially use these the new set of laws was the Women's World Cup as it started a few days after the changes were put in practice. Again, many people thought they were being too harsh when giving penalties in incidents like the first goal from this video, and that without VAR/the re-written law that they wouldn't be:
 
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RUCK4444

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Learn the rules.
See @Chippers reply above, then you learn the rules or better yet just watch the games.

There’s been a clear increased harshness of handball calls for both defenders and attackers.

This goes back to my initial point regarding this example, that VAR is taking rules to the nth degree.

To quote a good article I read:-
“The point here is not even really which decisions were right or wrong, but that the whole thing is completely and utterly baffling for everyone involved: fans do not know what is right or wrong, offside or onside, handball or no handball, and nor do pundits, managers, players, ex-pros, seemingly even the officials themselves who lurch from one decision to another.”

VAR has complicated what we’re pretty simple rules to begin with. They are now overcompensating and the consistency is being affected, not to mention the turgid watch each review forces on fans and how it affects fan reaction/emotion when a goal is scored.

Klopp admitted he didn’t react to one of their goals vs City because he wanted to wait for VAR. That in a nutshell is why I hate it and why I wanted no technology interference with the flow and emotion of the game.
 

atticus finch

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Hawk-Eye Innovations (owned by Sony) holds the patent for VAR and they use TV broadcasters footage. So who really gains from intensive scrutiny of TV replays? Who now has a unique and powerful advantage over those actually attending the game by having their product shown over and over again every time something exciting or controversial happens? Who has ploughed billions of £s into the game and now wants to gain more control in return for their investment? If the TV companies couldn't show replay after replay and ultra HD slow motion of all the action, to cause controversy, why would people pay so much to subscribe to the likes of Sky?
 

UncleBob

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The laws have recently changed for defenders too. Specific mention of players making their body unnaturally bigger, and for handball to be the decision when they do was written in for the first time this season. So was saying that should a player touch the ball with their hand above shoulder height that it will be classed as handball.

It's in the IFAB Summary of Main Changes Laws of the Game document for 2019/20

It's in the Premier League's website where it talks about handball rule changes for this season


It's on the Bundesliga's website talking about rule changes

You will find it in the full laws of the game for 2019/20
(Law 12, fouls and misconduct, Handling the ball, page 104 of the pdf)

You will find no mention of such a thing in the 2018/19 laws of the game (Law 12, fouls and misconduct, Handling the ball, page 102)

A prototype of these rules were put in place for the Champions League knock out stages last season, hence there being a fair number of handballs that people disagreed with. The term 'natural silhouette' started to get mentioned for the first time before it was eventually worded 'unaturally bigger'. - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47471380 & https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stricter-handball-rules-in-champions-league-warns-uefa-6hh0gs38n

One of the very first tournaments to officially use these the new set of laws was the Women's World Cup as it started a few days after the changes were put in practice. Again, many people thought they were being too harsh when giving penalties in incidents like the first goal from this video, and that without VAR/the re-written law that they wouldn't be:
No, rules haven't really changed for defenders, what they've done is make it clearer how situations should be interpreted. IFAB call it a re-writing for greater clarity.

Deliberate handball remains an offenc
The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• the ball touches a player’s hand/arm which has made their body unnaturally bigger
• the ball touches a player’s hand/arm when it is above their shoulder (unless the player has deliberately played the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The following will not usually be a free kick, unless they are one of the above situations:
• the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player who is close/near
• the ball touches a player’s hand/arm which is close to their body and has not made their body unnaturally bigger
• if a player is falling and the ball touches their hand/arm when it is between their body and the ground to support the body (but not extended to make the body bigger)
• If the goalkeeper attempts to ‘clear’ (release into play) a throw-in or deliberate kick from a team-mate but the ‘clearance’ fails, the goalkeeper can then handle the ball

Greater clarity is needed for handball, especially on those occasions when ‘nondeliberate’ handball is an offence. The re-wording follows a number of principles:
• football does not accept a goal being scored by a hand/arm (even if accidental)
• football expects a player to be penalised for handball if they gain possession/control of the ball from their hand/arm and gain a major advantage e.g. score or create a goal-scoring opportunity
• it is natural for a player to put their arm between their body and the ground for support when falling.
• having the hand/arm above shoulder height is rarely a ‘natural’ position and a player is ‘taking a risk’ by having the hand/arm in that position, including when sliding
• if the ball comes off the player’s body, or off another player (of either team) who is close by, onto the hands/arms it is often impossible to avoid contact with the ball
• When the GK clearly kicks or tries to kick the ball into play, this shows no intention to handle the ball so, if the ‘clearance’ attempt is unsuccessful, the goalkeeper can then handle the ball without committing an offence

The main changes are for the attacking team, where the slightest touch in even the most absurd situations will result in a free kick.

For defenders:

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed.

From 2013:

Regarding handball they now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.

So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?

If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.

Most people will see that the re-write just further clarifies what has always been the case, if anything the clarification of the rules give defenders more leeway, quite the opposite of what the likes of Ruck4444 thinks.
 

UncleBob

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See @Chippers reply above, then you learn the rules or better yet just watch the games.

There’s been a clear increased harshness of handball calls for both defenders and attackers.

This goes back to my initial point regarding this example, that VAR is taking rules to the nth degree.

To quote a good article I read:-
“The point here is not even really which decisions were right or wrong, but that the whole thing is completely and utterly baffling for everyone involved: fans do not know what is right or wrong, offside or onside, handball or no handball, and nor do pundits, managers, players, ex-pros, seemingly even the officials themselves who lurch from one decision to another.”

VAR has complicated what we’re pretty simple rules to begin with. They are now overcompensating and the consistency is being affected, not to mention the turgid watch each review forces on fans and how it affects fan reaction/emotion when a goal is scored.

Klopp admitted he didn’t react to one of their goals vs City because he wanted to wait for VAR. That in a nutshell is why I hate it and why I wanted no technology interference with the flow and emotion of the game.
No, the increased harshness is for attackers, there's nothing whatsoever in the rules that introduces a harsher interpretation of the rules for defenders, nothing, if anything the clarifications for the referees allow defenders more leeway than before.

I suppose the article was written for morons.

feck fan reaction, and Klopp for that matter. If your interpretation of flow and emotion is that obvious offsides should result in goals because the linesman on that day misjudged the situation, or a goal gets flagged off for offside even though the player was onside, then by all means. I disagree.
 

RUCK4444

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No, the increased harshness is for attackers, there's nothing whatsoever in the rules that introduces a harsher interpretation of the rules for defenders, nothing, if anything the clarifications for the referees allow defenders more leeway than before.

I suppose the article was written for morons.

feck fan reaction, and Klopp for that matter. If your interpretation of flow and emotion is that obvious offsides should result in goals because the linesman on that day misjudged the situation, or a goal gets flagged off for offside even though the player was onside, then by all means. I disagree.
OK so poor fan reaction means nothing and experts who have made it to the top level of the game who question VAR are all wrong because UncleBob from the CAF said so.

Nobody, and I don’t believe even you really, likes to watch shite replays of the most extreme scrutiny instead of the fast paced fluid and most importantly ENTERTAINING sport that we all fell in love with.

I remember when offside used to pass the benefit of doubt to the attacking player, this should be how the game is played to keep it high scoring, it’s the same for both teams after all.

Let’s leave it there eh, I hope you enjoy VAR - somebody has to.
 

UncleBob

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OK so poor fan reaction means nothing and experts who have made it to the top level of the game who question VAR are all wrong because UncleBob from the CAF said so.

Nobody, and I don’t believe even you really, likes to watch shite replays of the most extreme scrutiny instead of the fast paced fluid and most importantly ENTERTAINING sport that we all fell in love with.

I remember when offside used to pass the benefit of doubt to the attacking player, this should be how the game is played to keep it high scoring, it’s the same for both teams after all.

Let’s leave it there eh, I hope you enjoy VAR - somebody has to.
Michael Owen is an expert that's made it to the top level of the game.
 

Mb194dc

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https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/3989620/var-in-the-premier-league-referees-wont-change-policy-on-pitchside-monitors

Level of delusion in this article is extreme...

"accuracy of decisions on key match-changing incidents had been improved from 82% last season to 91%"

"But calls for a change in policy have been rejected because "the pace and tempo of Premier League football remains an important focus for clubs."

Indeed who cares about the integrity of the competition eh?

Anecdotally watching games.. The refereeing and with VAR, it's the worst the officiating has ever been. Having VAR and it being so rubbish compared to everywhere else just makes it all the more frustrating to watch.
 

Rafaeldagold

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See @Chippers reply above, then you learn the rules or better yet just watch the games.

There’s been a clear increased harshness of handball calls for both defenders and attackers.

This goes back to my initial point regarding this example, that VAR is taking rules to the nth degree.

To quote a good article I read:-
“The point here is not even really which decisions were right or wrong, but that the whole thing is completely and utterly baffling for everyone involved: fans do not know what is right or wrong, offside or onside, handball or no handball, and nor do pundits, managers, players, ex-pros, seemingly even the officials themselves who lurch from one decision to another.”

VAR has complicated what we’re pretty simple rules to begin with. They are now overcompensating and the consistency is being affected, not to mention the turgid watch each review forces on fans and how it affects fan reaction/emotion when a goal is scored.

Klopp admitted he didn’t react to one of their goals vs City because he wanted to wait for VAR. That in a nutshell is why I hate it and why I wanted no technology interference with the flow and emotion of the game
.
This is crucial & anyone who supports VAR honestly I question how much love for the actual game they have as it all seems to be about ‘ there’s too much money in football now’ or ‘we need to review everything’ they can’t see that VAR is destroying the game itself & will over time either put people off it or just make it less enjoyable. It’s just such a worthless addition to the game yet people will defend it to the hilt
 

RUCK4444

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This is crucial & anyone who supports VAR honestly I question how much love for the actual game they have as it all seems to be about ‘ there’s too much money in football now’ or ‘we need to review everything’ they can’t see that VAR is destroying the game itself & will over time either put people off it or just make it less enjoyable. It’s just such a worthless addition to the game yet people will defend it to the hilt
Yes exactly, I think an element of it is pig headedness where people who were adamant we needed it are too proud to change their opinion (a bit like Brexit :wenger:)

I agree that people still claiming it’s good probably didn’t have the same connection to the sport in the first place, I cannot see how they could possibly have had that connection and still think it’s been a good addition.

I just don’t believe there was an overwhelming need for it in the first place, I think anybody saying there was is exaggerating.

Even if it had been implemented better I still wouldn’t want the fan reaction and atmosphere affected at any cost.

It really has taken something away from the game.
 

Snow

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I think the number is low as for September. These are only the 4 incidents that are 100% wrong. It's also not counting the times that VAR should have overruled the ref and didn't.
 

The Stain

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VAR room just keeps agreeing with the refs initial decision. Fredericks should've been sent off for his reckless challenge on Son.
 

arthurka

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VAR room just keeps agreeing with the refs initial decision. Fredericks should've been sent off for his reckless challenge on Son.
No . It was a tackle which he won, the follow through did the damage. Never a red card.
 

UncleBob

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VAR incorrectly overruled decisions four times - Premier League referees' chief Mike Riley

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50517096
Riley told a meeting of the 20 top-flight clubs that on those occasions VAR had overruled perfectly good decisions by the on-field officials.
"We are far from perfect and we have to improve the way we do things," he said.

Riley added: "Part of the balance of understanding 'clear and obvious' [the terminology used to determine when an on-field error should be overturned] is that there will be times when we don't intervene and everyone thinks we should.
"But that is a better place to be than intervening and everyone saying 'you shouldn't have done that'.


"There are significant things we can do to improve, including better consistency in decision-making as VARs and the timings so we get minimum interference."

Christ he annoys me. Riley has bottled the introduction of VAR to such an extent that it's bizarre he's not facing a lot more criticism
 

sullydnl

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Clearly a foul on Jones. A legal shoulder charge cannot use arms and elbows. Not sure how VAR missed that.
If the ref says "I saw it but didn't think it was a foul" then that's the end of it as it wasn't so obviously Jones not being muscled off the ball that VAR would intervene. Looking at the contact below, I wouldn't say that interpretation is an obvious error.

 

OneUnited24

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We’re in deadman’s land. Referees think VAR will bail them out if they got it wrong but VAR doesn’t want to overrule the on field refs.

get rid of linesman and tel the guy in the middle to only deal with throwins and fouls in the middle Of the park. The rest is up to var
 

TheReligion

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Yet again another weekend of calamity with VAR. First the Palace Liverpool game now twice with Sheff United and United.

The issue is the referees. You can have as much technology as you like but it matters not when they are incompetent.
 

Buchan

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Why are the VAR officials so reluctant to overrule the on-field referees?

It’s an abysmal implementation of VAR and it’s making a mockery of the Premier League’s (self) title of the best in the world.
 

One Night Only

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The age of Liverpool's success and the age of the var lads all adds up. It's stupid. It's a shit system, everything this season has favoured Liverpool. Not just favouring them, but smashing us. I'm done with football now. It's shit. A system which should make it "correct" does everything but.
 

NinjaFletch

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Absolutely awful.

Foul on Jones. Hits his arm for the third.
Hardly, Jones was weak as piss.

Also perfectly happy with that not being given as hand ball, top of the arm was always fine in my understanding.

The problem is it's another example where they've been inconsistent with how they've applied it earlier in the season.
 

awop

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Absolutely awful.

Foul on Jones. Hits his arm for the third.
The only thing that's awful is your judgment on those 2 calls. Never ever a foul, he drops like a 10y old child and that's not handball...
 

sullydnl

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Correct call on the handball.

To disallow, they need to be sure it hit the hand rather than the shoulder or chest. They aren't, they can't be, so they don't disallow.
 

acnumber9

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Making the rules up depending on whether they want to make an unpopular decision or not. It blatantly hits his arm so either apply the rules or change the rules back.
 

RK

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It hit his upper bicep. Thought that was clear from the zoomed freeze frame.

Just highlights how it's wrong or at best still comes down to subjective calls. Get rid of VAR it's not worth it.
 

Dan_F

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Correct call on the handball.

To disallow, they need to be sure it hit the hand rather than the shoulder or chest. They aren't, they can't be, so they don't disallow.
I agree. I desperately wanted it to hit an arm, but it looked like shoulder/chest from 2 angles.