Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[cyberman]

I thought his criticism was fair and balanced. He said quite clearly that Pogba has everything needed, right now, to be a top class attacking midfielder, and that he would have hated being up against him playing in that role. He also said that Pogba didn't have the defensive nous, the positional sense and ability to recognise danger, to be as effective in the deeper lying 'Pirlo' role.

This chimes with what many people have been saying here in the Cafe all season, and with the criticism levelled at Mourinho for his use of Pogba.

He wasn't though. He was questioning his ability as a top class defensive midfielder..he actually used those words..that's been a moot point since Paul has become an attacking midfielder as he always should have been.
Consistency was always the problem with Paul but thats many big game since last Christmas alone when he's been the best midfielder, if not player, on the pitch.

 

[noodlehair]

I forgot about the bit where he randomly started claiming that Pogba thinks he's Pirlo

He started off with his usual can be a class player but lacks discipline (was a fair point the first 500 times he mentioned it) mantra, then something seemed to just set him off on some tangent of inventing bizarre straw arguments to attack Pogba with. You can see that he's genuinely angry as well. What a weirdo. It's like he thinks his world is caving in because people don't want to agree with him.

 

[SteveJ]

Not impressed with his comment about David Johnson* either.


*See the Richard Keys thread.

 

[RochaRoja]

Is it racism?

Why does he he hate Pogba?

Probably bitterness that Souness feels he was as good/better than Pogba but never earned a fraction of his wages and won’t be appreciated as a top player by younger generations because his career was pre Sky and YouTube.

Souness basically resents modern players in general and Pogba is the epitome of a modern player to a lot of yer da types (along with Neymar). Part of the stems from what I said above and part of it was his failed managerial career where he tried to be a disciplinarian and had no idea how to man manage free thinking players who didn’t go along with everything he said.

I wouldn’t rule out the racial element either. Often when middle aged white men resent younger guys for being flash, rich and indisciplined, being black can often be the cherry on the top of the cake.

 

[SteveJ]

being black* can often be the cherry on the top of the cake.

*and/or foreign.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Probably bitterness that Souness feels he was as good/better than Pogba but never earned a fraction of his wages and won’t be appreciated as a top player by younger generations because his career was pre Sky and YouTube.

Souness basically resents modern players in general and Pogba is the epitome of a modern player to a lot of yer da types (along with Neymar). Part of the stems from what I said above and part of it was his failed managerial career where he tried to be a disciplinarian and had no idea how to man manage free thinking players who didn’t go along with everything he said.

I wouldn’t rule out the racial element either. Often when middle aged white men resent younger guys for being flash, rich and indisciplined, being black can often be the cherry on the top of the cake.

This is an astute comment, especially since during the segment Souness explained that modern managers can no longer cross a line when talking to players.

 

[RochaRoja]

You're right about Sky wanting the drama. Every time Souness is doing a Utd match, Pogba is always the main topic of discussion. Souness is just a sad, bitter man so he'll bite every time, but I don't think he's aware that the presenters are just baiting him to embarrass himself over and over again. It's not really what I want in post-match analysis. Their job is to discuss the game, not to try and become part of the story.

To be honest, Pogba will always be the main topic of discussion. He’s United’s star player, most expensive player in the PL and the face of Manchester United around the world.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Probably bitterness that Souness feels he was as good/better than Pogba but never earned a fraction of his wages and won’t be appreciated as a top player by younger generations because his career was pre Sky and YouTube.

Souness basically resents modern players in general and Pogba is the epitome of a modern player to a lot of yer da types (along with Neymar). Part of the stems from what I said above and part of it was his failed managerial career where he tried to be a disciplinarian and had no idea how to man manage free thinking players who didn’t go along with everything he said.

I wouldn’t rule out the racial element either. Often when middle aged white men resent younger guys for being flash, rich and indisciplined, being black can often be the cherry on the top of the cake.

Good post, can see that being the case here yeah.

 

[Canagel]

His bitterness knows no bounds

 

[Jeppers7]

Perhaps trying to hide feelings for Paul ?

 

[Irwin99]

I'm not defending him totally as I do think he's too harsh on Pogba but I think old school midfielders/managers place a massive emphasis on keeping it simple and it can frustrate to see a player with such ridiculously good technique lose possession in a really cheap way. You can lose the ball with the odd misplaced pass but just hanging on to it too long or running down a blind alley is far more frustrating to witness.

Personally though, i'd rather just take the good with the (occasionally) bad with Pogba at this point because he can do things other players can only dream of. Jose's biggest mistake was trying to turn him into a different type of player. Pogba has a flair and a swagger that probably shouldn't be restricted and I'd rather just see him express himself like he is in this system.

 

[Steven7290]

He gotta be just playing a character now. Surely? Maybe?

 

[roonster09]

What a bitter fool this guy is. He is completely in some imaginary world where he thinks Pogba should be the player he is assuming.

All of a sudden brought Pirlo for no reason, then sort of implied Pogba was lying. Sky should get rid of these clowns. It's more like they just want to promote him for comedy and memes.

Redknapp was spot on and made so many valid points.

 

[ice-bionic red]

Any one pick him up saying (as the teams walked out!) “We don’t know what Manchester United will turn up” ?! Huh?

Does he realise we changed the manager or is he just that much of a thick cnut?

 

[Ekeke]

I think its simple. Souness believes a midfielder has a responsibility to help defend. In a United shirt at least, thats always been Pogba's weakness. He's had occasional games where he did a decent/good job of that but 9 times out of 10 he left a lot of work to do for his midfield partners.

Against Spurs he actually played on average further up the pitch than Lingard :

In Pogba's interview he talked about Frank Lampard and goals from midfield. The reason why is thats how far forward he is playing. Our 3rd furthest forward player against Spurs, behind Rashford and Martial. Its not really midfield is it? He became one of the front three and Lingard was more the player who helped Ander and Matic, much like with the goal and his interception to start it off. Pogba made 1 tackle 0 interceptions, which is exactly the same as Rashford and Martial. Lingard made 2 tackles and 1 interception. It was almost like a role reversal.

Lingard probably started higher up the pitch, but came backwards to help us keep the ball and try to win it. Pogba started a bit deeper but ended up further forward on average and had the defensive responsibilities of 1 of the front 3

 

[Jeppers7]

I think its simple. Souness believes a midfielder has a responsibility to help defend. In a United shirt at least, thats always been Pogba's weakness. He's had occasional games where he did a decent/good job of that but 9 times out of 10 he left a lot of work to do for his midfield partners.

Against Spurs he actually played on average further up the pitch than Lingard :

In Pogba's interview he talked about Frank Lampard and goals from midfield. The reason why is thats how far forward he is playing. Our 3rd furthest forward player against Spurs, behind Rashford and Martial. Its not really midfield is it? He became one of the front three and Lingard was more the player who helped Ander and Matic, much like with the goal and his interception to start it off. Pogba made 1 tackle 0 interceptions, which is exactly the same as Rashford and Martial. Lingard made 2 tackles and 1 interception. It was almost like a role reversal.

Lingard probably started higher up the pitch, but came backwards to help us keep the ball and try to win it. Pogba started a bit deeper but ended up further forward on average and had the defensive responsibilities of 1 of the front 3

Young was further forward than the midfield , what's the difference in position with Pogba Lingard ? About 2 yards. But yeah Lingard did a defensive job and Pogba didn't.....obviously

 

[Ekeke]

Young was further forward than the midfield , what's the difference in position with Pogba Lingard ? About 2 yards. But yeah Lingard did a defensive job and Pogba didn't.....obviously

Thats always the case with fullbacks. They end up level or sometimes beyond the midfield, but for some reason we dont say we have 5 in midfield

 

[Jeppers7]

Thats always the case with fullbacks. They end up level or sometimes beyond the midfield, but for some reason we dont say we have 5 in midfield

Clearly they aren't doing their job defensively

 

[Ferguson]

I think it is a hard thing to have original opinions week to week on the telly, especially if you aren't a deep thinker and behind the times.

It is much easier just to give the same opinions about Pogba or Arsenal or whatever over and over again.

Unfortunately for Souness, he is finally being proven wrong about Pogba and now he doesn't know what to say, so he just repeats himself.

 

[Ekeke]

Clearly they aren't doing their job defensively

With Young thats certainly true

 

[Adisa]

I actually enjoy it. The man is suffering.

 

[montpelier]

I don't think those average position things prove that much but they can be quite interesting.

If Young is ''pushed on'' then it tells us Spurs weren't playing a forward on that side really more than anything else.

He has to push into the space that's in front of him.

Or if Utd were playing 4-4-2 supposedly. That shape gets corrupted in a different way I would imagine.

You can't just stand there can you? Because it's your position.

 

[kouroux]

Bitterness embodied. I hope I do not age like that

 

[montpelier]

Souness remains a 'strange one.' I don't want to passionately argue against what most of you are saying but I sometimes think he's just very. very pissed off with how he isn't a star player anymore who people worship and/or as 2nd choice a top Manager - you can see why that didn't work out?

And then Pogba in particular fits into his personal resentments map. And is playing for United.

At other times (occasionally anyway) he's intelligent, articulate & doesn't hammer players that are simply not good enough - I've seen him work quite hard to avoid this.

As a Manager though - with players not doing what he says, it's a disaster waiting to happen innit?

 

[montpelier]

Bitterness embodied. I hope I do not age like that

Yeah, I think he resents getting old. Just generally, even before anything else starts with him.

 

[Ekeke]

I don't think those average position things prove that much but they can be quite interesting.

If Young is ''pushed on'' then it tells us Spurs weren't playing a forward on that side really more than anything else.

He has to push into the space that's in front of him.

Or if Utd were playing 4-4-2 supposedly. That shape gets corrupted in a different way I would imagine.

You can't just stand there can you? Because it's your position.

It doesnt tell us that. In attack Delli Alli was pulling onto the back post each time Spurs got the ball wide, Young didnt do a good job defensively against him. Look on the other side, Trippier is even further forward for Spurs than Young for us.

Does that mean Pogba, Martial and Shaw didnt cause problems for them coming from the left side? No. It just means he got forward and someone else had to bail him out defensively if hes not busting a gut to get back. Pogba and Martial were threatening in that space where he wasnt doing a great job defending. Likewise Spurs were threatening at the back post where Alli was pulling on crosses

 

[montpelier]

It doesnt tell us that. In attack Delli Alli was pulling onto the back post each time Spurs got the ball wide, Young didnt do a good job defensively against him. Look on the other side, Trippier is even further forward for Spurs than Young for us.

Does that mean Pogba, Martial and Shaw didnt cause problems for them coming from the left side? No. It just means he got forward and someone else had to bail him out defensively if hes not busting a gut to get back. Pogba and Martial were threatening in that space where he wasnt doing a great job defending. Likewise Spurs were threatening at the back post where Alli was pulling on crosses

 

[montpelier]

It's average position though innit?

Not just average position in a defensive context. I presume we did have the ball for somewhere near 1/2 the game.

Mentioning Alli gives me an opportunity to criticise the whole thing really. He starts right & drifts left & forward doesn't he?

Which is reflected quite well & explains why both Trippier & Young are where they are?

You can't just say x & y are out of position because the team shape on the overall basis isn't quite as nice as you'd like it to be.

 

[montpelier]

Let me try & put it another way.

He has to go & meet Trippier - or Trippier is just gonna be receiving in space & flinging crosses in all afternoon.

Maybe there is space left behind occasionally but that's just how it is for me. He (Young) can't be everywhere, given the Utd set-up is fairly narrow too.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I love English punditry. There are so many that cannot for the life of them get past their bias and just find every little nitpickety thing to hammer on about. Conversely, there are those that don't want to seem biased so badly, that they just slag of their past club constantly in a desperate attempt to seem neutral.

I love it

 

[stepic]

He’s just stubborn. Unfortunately a common trait for old people. He’s made his dislike of the player well known and there’s nothing Pogba can do now that will change his mind. I hope I don’t end up like that when I’m old.

 

[kafta]

Bitter old man.

Everyone was praising pogbas pass and comes out complaining that he took two touches before getting his pass out. Talk about knitpicking

 

[Charlie Roberts]

This might be controversial but I actually think he's one of the better pundits, but he clearly has a blind spot when it comes to pogba, which I don't understand.

 

[Cassidy]

Bitter old man.

Everyone was praising pogbas pass and comes out complaining that he took two touches before getting his pass out. Talk about knitpicking

I don't think he was complaining, think he was making his usual point about Pogba usually overplaying.

 

[ice-bionic red]

Just watched the post match from yesterday! What a cnut he is but it’s clear as day sky want this. All the talk is about Pogba and they want this old prick to rant about him.

 

[Cockney Phil]

Sourness is just another boring Scouse pundit like Hansen before. Yesterday on Sky with Redknapp, the crown prince of idiots, it was like a pantomime. Roy Keane, I think, said he was an excellent pundit, which had to be in jest. Sourness plays the senior wise head quite well but is depressing when he goes on about modern clothes and other peripheral crap. He thinks the game has forgotten that he dressed like a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime in the 70/80s and was a thug on the pitch. His best part on TV was in Boys from the Black Stuff. He should hang up his microphone.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Sky push Souness for quotes on Pogba because they know it creates a social media buzz but f*ck me their post match coverage was unwatchable yesterday.

 

[mitchmouse]

to be fair (and boy do I hate Souness-era Liverpool), he is right to an extent bout Pogba. He cannot do the dirty work: the defensive stuff. He is n't good enough to be a box-box players like Keane or Robson. There again, Souness was allowed to hack people to shreds in his day and that helped the defence

 

[Jeppers7]

to be fair (and boy do I hate Souness-era Liverpool), he is right to an extent bout Pogba. He cannot do the dirty work: the defensive stuff. He is n't good enough to be a box-box players like Keane or Robson. There again, Souness was allowed to hack people to shreds in his day and that helped the defence

It's not about ability.....he isn't the same type of player as those two players. Robson is the reason I started supporting United, Keane played the most consistently brilliant three consecutive seasons I've ever seen from a footballer, but neither of them could play THAT pass yesterday. Because they weren't good enough ?

 

[VeevaVee]

I think Souness particularly resented him being so showboaty without delivering, but took it to a weird bitter, obsessed level. Now he just hates him and looks for whatever he can to put him down.