Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

Righteous Steps

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For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.
Great post as always
 

Falcow

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Carragher will be putting his on a coffee table, putting him in the debate is just to back up Souness.
Carragher is a sly pr1ck whose only agenda is the constant promotion of Liverpool FC.

How is scum and the spitting incident is the proof of it. Scouse through and through.
 

Nickelodeon

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Since when, before Pogba’s injury, has that ever been held as some sort of requirement for injured players? When was the last time, if ever, a conversation was started because an injured player was not in the stadium?

How many games have you seen Rashford at since January? How many Eric Bailly before that? How many Harry Kane? It’s a non-story, just an ever-shifting goalpost regarding Pogba.

Him posting himself shooting hoops or at his brother’s wedding can only possibly be a problem or even a story if he were not supposed to be there. In and of themselves, the act of shooting a basketball or attending a wedding are obviously not ‘bad’ things. In this context, they can only possibly be made ‘bad’ if the player was not permitted to do it at the time. There hasn’t been even the slightest suggestion that this is the case. If he was permitted to do it, then he’s obviously permitted to post it, as he can post what he wants on his page about his life.

As I said in my longer rant, would there have been a problem if he posted himself playing with his cute dogs? Alexis’ constant posting of his dogs on his Instagram (despite committing the crime of not playing well) has never led to a question of his focus, not once. In fact, it’s been used to discuss a ‘depth’ or whatever to him as a man if anything.

Why on earth would Fergie have ‘booted Pogba out’ for playing Basketball or dancing at a wedding?!!
I am not saying what you mentioned in your longer post is incorrect and that Pogba has been scrutinized far more than any other player. And like another poster has mentioned, I'm not downplaying Souness' obsession with Pogba. He has shown as much agenda in his 'punditry' as I've seen from anyone.

But my only point here is (you can disagree if you want to), that if Pogba is 100% committed to the club and his agent spouts nonsense against the same club where he was a world record signing and is made one of the highest paid players in the world, and he doesn't make a statement (social media or otherwise) to showcase him commitment, then he doesn't deserve unconditional backing from our supporters as well.

Yes, Souness is an a**hole and has unfairly and repeatedly targeted Pogba in the past. But as much as I dislike him, his comments on Pogba in this year are irrefutable.
 

Art Vandelay

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I am not saying what you mentioned in your longer post is incorrect and that Pogba has been scrutinized far more than any other player. And like another poster has mentioned, I'm not downplaying Souness' obsession with Pogba. He has shown as much agenda in his 'punditry' as I've seen from anyone.

But my only point here is (you can disagree if you want to), that if Pogba is 100% committed to the club and his agent spouts nonsense against the same club where he was a world record signing and is made one of the highest paid players in the world, and he doesn't make a statement (social media or otherwise) to showcase him commitment, then he doesn't deserve unconditional backing from our supporters as well.

Yes, Souness is an a**hole and has unfairly and repeatedly targeted Pogba in the past. But as much as I dislike him, his comments on Pogba in this year are irrefutable.
I know this is not what the main thrust of your post is about, but this whole thing where Souness has an agenda and unfairly targeted Pogba is being overly defensive. He doesn't like him and doesn't rate him as a player, that is perfectly fine you're allowed an opinion and football is all about them. If everyone had the same opinion then every manager would try to play the same way, every team would be built in the same fashion. Football is about diverse opinions and we can all see what appeals to us in it.

Souness not liking Pogba and not rating him isn't an issue, he's a high profile player and the record signing at the biggest team in the land so he's going to get talked about. The issue has been the reaction to that with people going on about agendas and making it into a whole thing to the point his pay masters goad him and prod him into saying more things about Pogba to get more reactions. Would Souness have even cared about that whole thing yesterday without being prodded and goaded by Sky/Carragher? I doubt it. He's a cantankerous old arsehole who says what he thinks and they've found a way to get social media hits out of this so are basically just using him and getting him to say more and more things.

Souness isn't the problem, he's entitled to not like or rate players. People reacting to that and then Sky/papers he writes for milking it for hits is the problem and now it's all snowballed into something somehow far larger than "Man doesn't like player." It's turned into us versus them and the only people profiting from the stupidity of it all is Sky.
 

Feed Me

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Come on man. They still had to beat out good sides. 2 of those trophies were won by City last year and were seen as a great achievement. They were the best "cup side" domestically that year.

They beat Roma that season who went on to win Serie A. They beat Barcelona also. Beat Arsenal in the FA Cup final and Leeds early on.

Can't dismiss winning that many trophies in a season.

Liverpool finished 3rd in that season so were a top side with Gerrard in the midfield and he also won PFA Young player of the year, made the EPL Team of the season and won the PFA fans player of the year in midfield

Benitez is his own man and how he decides to set up is his own business but it isn't gospel.
Perhaps I am being a touch harsh but my general point remains. Gerrard was never a top class midfield player over a prolonged period and there are plenty of instances of his limitations being exposed. I think he played the best football of his career under Benitez, when he was not shackled by defensive responsibilities. There’s no shame in not being a behemoth like Keane or Vieira, not many players are.
 

Feed Me

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No idea why you're bringing Gerrard to the discussion about Souness and Pogba, but your post is silly. "Gerrard belongs nowhere the likes of Keane and Vieira". That's just hyperbole. Of course they won more than him due to playing in better teams, but Gerrard was clearly on their level, just a very different player. Similar energy level and determination, better offensively, less tactical discipline. He's very underrated on this forum (unsurprisingly). There's a reason Mourinho tried to sign him for three clubs, and Ferguson wanted to replace Keane with him. Ferguson said this about him back in 04:

"He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. Not that Vieira lacks anything, but Gerrard does more."

Also, a bit fun to read the thread from here back when he was linked to you guys: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ferguson-says-gerrard-is-better-than-keane-and-vieira.48711/
Another Liverpool fan... :rolleyes:

Gerrard was an outstanding player, albeit not on the level of Keane or Vieira. He also played his best football outside of the midfield engine room.

Bold bit of your post is very interesting to me. So basically, you could well be describing Paul Pogba. An outstanding talent who has been playing in one of the worst United teams in decades.

I only bought Gerrard into the debate because the original poster (a Dipper) randomly used Keane and Vieira as a yardstick to beat Pogba with.
 

Adisa

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For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.
Brilliant post and well articulated. Last week, I posted a story about Klopp judging Mane's character because he dressed like a "rapper" and decided not to sign him. I was told there was nothing to it. I didn't respond because I hate these racial discussions with a passion.
People don't bother to understand that is is almost exclusively black players that are discussed this way.
Pogba is the only player on this club that simply can't be inconsistent. Its either he's good or he doesn't care enough and can't be bothered. Maybe not the only player. The other player that gets that kind of shit thrown at him also happens to be black.
 

Rozay

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I am not saying what you mentioned in your longer post is incorrect and that Pogba has been scrutinized far more than any other player. And like another poster has mentioned, I'm not downplaying Souness' obsession with Pogba. He has shown as much agenda in his 'punditry' as I've seen from anyone.

But my only point here is (you can disagree if you want to), that if Pogba is 100% committed to the club and his agent spouts nonsense against the same club where he was a world record signing and is made one of the highest paid players in the world, and he doesn't make a statement (social media or otherwise) to showcase him commitment, then he doesn't deserve unconditional backing from our supporters as well.

Yes, Souness is an a**hole and has unfairly and repeatedly targeted Pogba in the past. But as much as I dislike him, his comments on Pogba in this year are irrefutable.
I think the sentiment of what you said is entirely reasonable, I just disagree with it if you are qualifying it by his attendance record at games whilst injured, or his social media posts - both of which you referenced as justifiable grounds for criticism. I don’t think they are, and never are for other players.

Concerns about his commitment due to the obvious fact that he is yet to sign a new contract, and his agent basically implying that he won’t necessarily do so, is entirely valid and normal - for Pogba and any other football player.
 

Rozay

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Brilliant post and well articulated. Last week, I posted a story about Klopp judging Mane's character because he dressed like a "rapper" and decided not to sign him. I was told there was nothing to it. I didn't respond because I hate these racial discussions with a passion.
People don't bother to understand that is is almost exclusively black players that are discussed this way.
Pogba is the only player on this club that simply can't be inconsistent. Its either he's good or he doesn't care enough and can't be bothered. Maybe not the only player. The other player that gets that kind of shit thrown at him also happens to be black.
Thank you sir.

I also saw the quotes from Klopp recently and thought they were ill-advised tbh, but I also, believe it or not, try to avoid race debates typically!

I’ve said similarly over the last year that Pogba, Martial (who of course is the other player you were referring to) and Fred are always never more than a game or two away from mass criticism and everyone turning on them. With Martial, it is even broken down into 10 minute spells let alone one game to the next! I think they are the players who have had real ‘attitude’ and commitment accusations levelled at them the most, and they are not really entitled to have just tried but not played well. Every bad game is ‘disinterest’ etc. Fred has been brilliant every game pretty much, but despite the new country, settling in disclaimer - there were also the predictable conversations about attitude and commitment last year. Lukaku got similar, and I must say, this season I have at times felt a little uncomfortable with how he gets spoken about in general. The language used towards him is typically unwarranted, and he’s not a United villain in anyway, just a former player.

I don’t rate Lingard as a player at all, and am not shy in saying so, but off the field, I have no problems with him either.

I’ve said before, this is a lot deeper than football. It happens in all professions. A ‘worrying attitude’ label is never too far away for many young black pros.

I won’t even start with the other stereotypes. The amount of times I’ve read on here over the years that Bailly, Ighalo or Partey have ‘surprisingly good’ technique is another conversation altogether!
 

Craig Ward

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Brilliant post and well articulated. Last week, I posted a story about Klopp judging Mane's character because he dressed like a "rapper" and decided not to sign him. I was told there was nothing to it. I didn't respond because I hate these racial discussions with a passion.
People don't bother to understand that is is almost exclusively black players that are discussed this way.
Pogba is the only player on this club that simply can't be inconsistent. Its either he's good or he doesn't care enough and can't be bothered. Maybe not the only player. The other player that gets that kind of shit thrown at him also happens to be black.
I disagree, i dont think Pogba's criticism is anything to do with race and leaning towards suggesting people dislike his footballing abilities because of race is lazy and rude and quite disrespectful to a lot of people who have valid opinions.

Phil Jones and Luke Shaw are absolutely hammered by fans, Jones in particular. Is that acceptable because they are white or would people only take offence if they were black? I'll answer - it's the same because people are entitled to opinions regardless of race.

You cant just have a blanket rule and blame race as an undertone for people's opinions.

Pogba does divide opinion, but if he was white it'd be exactly the same. He'd still be the same person. It's not about race unless someone suggests it is
 

Inter Yer Nan

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I'd rather have Pogba's medal collection, future, bank account and general happiness than Souness'. Souness acts like he's about 13. Pogba handled that the perfect and probably honest way.
 

Stacks

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Brilliant post and well articulated. Last week, I posted a story about Klopp judging Mane's character because he dressed like a "rapper" and decided not to sign him. I was told there was nothing to it. I didn't respond because I hate these racial discussions with a passion.
People don't bother to understand that is is almost exclusively black players that are discussed this way.
Pogba is the only player on this club that simply can't be inconsistent. Its either he's good or he doesn't care enough and can't be bothered. Maybe not the only player. The other player that gets that kind of shit thrown at him also happens to be black.
FFS I hate shite like that. It's like black culture = bad and you have to conform to white western standards or something. Hip-Hop = bad, as if it is all about bitches and hoes etc.

such a b**** move but kind of shows what some are up against. Like one has to hide oneself and not be "too black."

What if he dressed indie or rock n roll? would he have been signed or is it shirt and tie at all times?
 
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Inter Yer Nan

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I disagree, i dont think Pogba's criticism is anything to do with race and leaning towards suggesting people dislike his footballing abilities because of race is lazy and rude and quite disrespectful to a lot of people who have valid opinions.

Phil Jones and Luke Shaw are absolutely hammered by fans, Jones in particular. Is that acceptable because they are white or would people only take offence if they were black? I'll answer - it's the same because people are entitled to opinions regardless of race.

You cant just have a blanket rule and blame race as an undertone for people's opinions.

Pogba does divide opinion, but if he was white it'd be exactly the same. He'd still be the same person. It's not about race unless someone suggests it is
I think a lot of what they said is right in the way black players are often portrayed and stereotypes though I tend to agree our fans don't tend to fall into that trap with Pogba, Lingard etc; It's a media thing and it's strategic IMO. Dinosaurs like Souness go along with it because that's his generations and he has certain insecurities.
 

amolbhatia50k

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The "disappointment" regarding is Pogba is more out of the fact that he hasn't performed like the Balon Dor winner people though he was. Souness wasn't at that level either. Pogba has clearly been unfortunate to be at a struggling club for the last 4 years. His Juve and France achievements are fanatastic.
 

Rozay

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I disagree, i dont think Pogba's criticism is anything to do with race and leaning towards suggesting people dislike his footballing abilities because of race is lazy and rude and quite disrespectful to a lot of people who have valid opinions.

Phil Jones and Luke Shaw are absolutely hammered by fans, Jones in particular. Is that acceptable because they are white or would people only take offence if they were black? I'll answer - it's the same because people are entitled to opinions regardless of race.

You cant just have a blanket rule and blame race as an undertone for people's opinions.

Pogba does divide opinion, but if he was white it'd be exactly the same. He'd still be the same person. It's not about race unless someone suggests it is
I don’t think you have read the posts at all. Firstly, majority of what we have discussed have been about personality and attitude, and secondly - Paul Pogba frankly isn’t the footballing equivalent of the white players you have mentioned anyway.

There is no point taking one of the best players in the country, and certainly one of the best midfield players, and then taking players who can’t even get into their national squad and using that as some sort of ‘see, both players are criticised’ point’.

Find me a white player of comparable level to Paul Pogba and then we can discuss any differences in how they are critiqued.
 

Fingeredmouse

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The "disappointment" regarding is Pogba is more out of the fact that he hasn't performed like the Balon Dor winner people though he was. Souness wasn't at that level either. Pogba has clearly been unfortunate to be at a struggling club for the last 4 years. His Juve and France achievements are fanatastic.
Souness was the best midfielder in a dominant side both domestically and in Europe. He should have been a Balon D'Or contender and there were some funny voting practices going on then (note: Keegan winning the year he transferred to Hamburg).
Pogba is a very good player indeed and he certainly may eclipse Souness by his career end (let's hope so) but let's not down play how exceptional Souness was.
 

devilish

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I guess having a 66 year old former player and former manager challenging a 27 year old in a medal counting context is pretty mature indeed. I wonder what would happen if Gaz uses that same criteria next time Scholes vs Gerrard argument get debated.
 

njred

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He was a dirty hatchet man and some of his tackles were beyond disgusting. He'd be found out in the modern game where he wouldn't get away with that.
First choice on team sheet. Ran the team like Keane but with obviously more talent. Yes a tough player in a tougher league but the best at the time.
 

christinaa

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Souness was a highly skilled and accomplished footballer with a brilliant passing range and technique as well as being a fecking maniac. He was, by no stretch of even the most fevered imagination, simply a "leg-breaker who was lucky to be part of a good team".
Let's not let his bizarre pseudo-feud with Pogba result in revisionist nonsense.
Must have been seeing another player.
 

christinaa

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I'd rather have Pogba's medal collection, future, bank account and general happiness than Souness'. Souness acts like he's about 13. Pogba handled that the perfect and probably honest way.
Exactly!
 

Righteous Steps

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Another Liverpool fan... :rolleyes:

Gerrard was an outstanding player, albeit not on the level of Keane or Vieira. He also played his best football outside of the midfield engine room.

Bold bit of your post is very interesting to me. So basically, you could well be describing Paul Pogba. An outstanding talent who has been playing in one of the worst United teams in decades.

I only bought Gerrard into the debate because the original poster (a Dipper) randomly used Keane and Vieira as a yardstick to beat Pogba with.
Don’t agree Pogba hasn’t reached the standards (at United)Gerrard did even as a CM.

He was already a world class player as a CM before Benitez came as well, Ferguson said as much.
 

Righteous Steps

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Thank you sir.

I also saw the quotes from Klopp recently and thought they were ill-advised tbh, but I also, believe it or not, try to avoid race debates typically!

I’ve said similarly over the last year that Pogba, Martial (who of course is the other player you were referring to) and Fred are always never more than a game or two away from mass criticism and everyone turning on them. With Martial, it is even broken down into 10 minute spells let alone one game to the next! I think they are the players who have had real ‘attitude’ and commitment accusations levelled at them the most, and they are not really entitled to have just tried but not played well. Every bad game is ‘disinterest’ etc. Fred has been brilliant every game pretty much, but despite the new country, settling in disclaimer - there were also the predictable conversations about attitude and commitment last year. Lukaku got similar, and I must say, this season I have at times felt a little uncomfortable with how he gets spoken about in general. The language used towards him is typically unwarranted, and he’s not a United villain in anyway, just a former player.

I don’t rate Lingard as a player at all, and am not shy in saying so, but off the field, I have no problems with him either.

I’ve said before, this is a lot deeper than football. It happens in all professions. A ‘worrying attitude’ label is never too far away for many young black pros.

I won’t even start with the other stereotypes. The amount of times I’ve read on here over the years that Bailly, Ighalo or Partey have ‘surprisingly good’ technique is another conversation altogether!
You are 100% correct, it’s so embedded into peoples fabric that they even do it without realising many a time.
 

christinaa

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Sorry but it’s actually true, Souness was a better player technically than Keane, although technically neither were as good as Pogba so it’s not the be all and end all, there are other qualities which make the sum of a player.
I respect your opinion but beg to disagree.

Souness is a despicable chap who managed to insert despicable comments on TV about Pogba even when the same Pogba was not playing!
What kind of a pundit is that?!
He's a sad Cnut. :mad:
 

Lee565

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This is getting beyond ridiculous with souness's hatred for pogba, that medals in the table thing from souness was embarrassing, it feels like it's at a point where I am genuinely expecting souness to slip up soon and mention the n word on camera during another one of his obsessive rants about pogba.
 

RoyH1

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Souness' obsession with Pogba is borderline pathological. Pogba' s reply to him was brilliant and he doesn't need to do more. No one outside the British Isles or committed football fans (like the people in the Caf) know who Souness is. Save few exceptions(think Maradona in 86), medal counts are irrelevant in collective sports.
 

Sandikan

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Souness was the best midfielder in a dominant side both domestically and in Europe. He should have been a Balon D'Or contender and there were some funny voting practices going on then (note: Keegan winning the year he transferred to Hamburg).
Pogba is a very good player indeed and he certainly may eclipse Souness by his career end (let's hope so) but let's not down play how exceptional Souness was.
Presume you're about 45 or upwards?
i'd imagine the only footage most early 40s and down have seen of Sourness is exceptionally cowardly late challenges.

My favourite is the one where he overuns the ball and studs someone's calf and then crouches on his knees screaming at the ref pointing at an imaginary dot on his leg
 

Sandikan

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Souness' obsession with Pogba is borderline pathological. Pogba' s reply to him was brilliant and he doesn't need to do more. No one outside the British Isles or committed football fans (like the people in the Caf) know who Souness is. Save few exceptions(think Maradona in 86), medal counts are irrelevant in collective sports.
Life moves on. Teens now won't remember tv and stuff we loved. It's before their time.

Unless you expect players to be watching hours of videos of every good team ever, what Pogba said was perfectly normal and respectable.

I got into football in 90 but only mildly and i was young.
So i remember United a bit but i wouldn't say remember Hansen and Lawrenson but I've obviously heard their names since
 

Feed Me

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Don’t agree Pogba hasn’t reached the standards (at United)Gerrard did even as a CM.

He was already a world class player as a CM before Benitez came as well, Ferguson said as much.
Pogba was a key component in a World Cup winning side, playing a disciplined midfield role in the process.

As it happens, I think the same about Pogba as I do Gerrard – both excellent players who are best when not given defensive responsibilities.

I am not sure why me saying Gerrard was not on Keane or Vieira’s level has proven to be so contentious. Gerrard was nowhere near as well rounded and his leadership credentials were not as strong either.

For the record, nor do I think Pogba can be spoken about in the same breath as the aforementioned duo.

Anyway, back on topic – Sourness is a cnut.
 

Righteous Steps

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Are you feeling feverish, mate?

Bloody ‘ell!
It’s a valid opinion, I don’t think many people are aware of how talented Souness was, he’s not Scholes level of technical ability, but yes he was better than Keane in that respect.
 

Craig Ward

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I don’t think you have read the posts at all. Firstly, majority of what we have discussed have been about personality and attitude, and secondly - Paul Pogba frankly isn’t the footballing equivalent of the white players you have mentioned anyway.

There is no point taking one of the best players in the country, and certainly one of the best midfield players, and then taking players who can’t even get into their national squad and using that as some sort of ‘see, both players are criticised’ point’.

Find me a white player of comparable level to Paul Pogba and then we can discuss any differences in how they are critiqued.
Its irrelevant if players are comparable in terms of ability - the fact is the bulk of players get criticism but your bringing race into it as a sub context.

Jones is much more of a laughing stock than Pogba, but race isnt brought into that discussion because Jones is white? If Jones was black, would you have more of an issue and blame peoples culture?

Its simple - man uts fans dont get on pogbas back because he is of colour, they do it because his performances have been way below what he is capable of and his agent and family have been been negative about the club. He's hardly been a good professional since he's been here.

Maybe fans are irked at his social media, but honestly when you put yourself in the limelight so much you will be heading for more critique when you dont perform. He's not performed. End of

If Boris Johnson had gone to a wedding and posted all over social media instead of being a professional we'd all have something to say. Not exactly comparable but my point is when your acting up on social media when your not even trying to do a good job for your employers, your opening the door for criticism.
 

Rozay

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Its irrelevant if players are comparable in terms of ability - the fact is the bulk of players get criticism but your bringing race into it as a sub context.

Jones is much more of a laughing stock than Pogba, but race isnt brought into that discussion because Jones is white? If Jones was black, would you have more of an issue and blame peoples culture?

Its simple - man uts fans dont get on pogbas back because he is of colour, they do it because his performances have been way below what he is capable of and his agent and family have been been negative about the club. He's hardly been a good professional since he's been here.

Maybe fans are irked at his social media, but honestly when you put yourself in the limelight so much you will be heading for more critique when you dont perform. He's not performed. End of

If Boris Johnson had gone to a wedding and posted all over social media instead of being a professional we'd all have something to say. Not exactly comparable but my point is when your acting up on social media when your not even trying to do a good job for your employers, your opening the door for criticism.
It really isn’t, but as you were.

People don’t get on his back because of his performances. They get on his back about pretty much every part of his existence.

And part of my point is your closing section that has been repeated so much to the point where I am sure you assume it to be fact that he does not try to do a good job. It has been concluded, by some, that every time the player has a good game it can be simplified to ‘because he feels like it’ - and every poor game is down to ‘disinterest’. It’s all nonsense. You bang on about performances about a player who has typically been one of our better performers.

If you had read my post, you will also see me question the process behind those concluding he is ‘acting up on social media’. ‘Acting up’ according to who? I don’t consider him to be acting up on social media. Which one of us is wrong, and why? Is it because you think his dancing at his brother’s wedding was ‘inappropriate’? If so, why?


And I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat - Pogba has far more ‘good‘ games than bad games for United. That is pretty much fact.

And it is not irrelevant to me that the players are not comparable in terms of quality. It is a stupid comparison to use a rubbish player, who is criticised for being rubbish as validation for directing the same level of criticism towards a good player. You cannot show me a good player whose game is obsessed about as much as Pogba’s, who is, I’m afraid, a ‘good player’. You cannot show me another good player whose poor games, poor passes become such topics of conversation. Why is a good player so reluctantly praised, ever? Why would people turn around and call those who defend the football of one of the better footballers some sort of ‘fanboy’? Basically, ‘what you guys should be doing is slating this man’.

Ultimately, if you had read my initial post, it had very little to do with Pogba’s football anyway. Any adult who has a problem with another posting clips from his brother’s wedding, to the point where his attitude to work is called in to question, needs to have a word with themselves.
 
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