Greatest player of all time (Forget longevity)

JSArsenal

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Messi and C. Ronaldo are freaks who managed to stay relatively fit for 12+ seasons. Other footballers weren't as lucky. Van Basten and L Ronaldo come to mind. Others didn't have the discipline of those two like Ronaldinho.

Leaving aside longevity and taking a peak of say 2-3 seasons, does that change who the best player of all time is? I mean you can take so many different eras of Messi for a thread like this, the same for Cristiano.

I'd say it's still Messi from 2009 - 2011 or so. Whenever Guardiola's last CL win was.
 
Messi 2011 - 2014

Still had his explosiveness and his goalscoring started to increase totally dominating teams with his plays.

I remember el clasico in 2014 when Barca won 4-3 in Madrid. He totally dominated the whole game being everywhere on the pitch.

I think it was the highest level of football I ever seen.
 
Messi. If you were to choose the best ever dribblers, playmakers, and goalscorers, he will be top 3 of alltime if not the outright best in all 3 categories.
 
Well if only count their very peak players like Maradona (who nevertheless is a consensus top 3 of all time) , George best and l Ronaldo fair better.
 
Jesse Lingard Nov 28th 2017 - Jan 1st 2018
 
I know that if I'll need to pick someone to play against aliens in a Space Jam scenario, I'd pick Maradona.

Peak Messi is obviously up there, I'd say him and Ronaldo 96-98 would make up my top-3.

Other than that it's the usual suspects with an odd inclusion of someone like George Best & Ronaldinho.
 
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Messi 10-13
R9 96-98
Ronaldo 11-14
Ronaldinho 04-06
Henry 03-06


Those are the best 2-3 years peak I’ve ever seen from any footballers.

Never watched Maradona, Cruyff, Pele or Best for 2-3 years, so I couldn’t comment. But I guess they would be right up there to the very top too.
 
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RedRonaldo said:
Messi 10-13
R9 96-98
Ronaldo 11-14
Ronaldinho 04-06
Henry 03-06


Those are the best 2-3 years peak I’ve ever seen from any footballers.

Never watched Maradona, Cruyff, Pele or Best for 2-3 years, so I couldn’t comment. But I guess they would be right up there to the very top too.
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I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
 
Best to stick with "best player I've seen".

It's Messi 10-15 followed by Messi's later years at number 2, probably. Then Ronaldo 07-12 I guess. Then, Zidane back in the day. Finally Ronaldhinio around 04-06 (?).

Yeah I'm not good at remembering individual seasons.
 
Daydreamer said:
I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
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:lol: Sorry but this did crack me up
 
Daydreamer said:
I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
Click to expand...
Damn that cheered me up
 
Daydreamer said:
I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
Click to expand...
  • Made sure that the Salah, Mane & Firmino trio could focus on their goalscoring, breaking multiple records
 
In an Earth vs Aliens one season only death match, Maradona + Messi + R9 would be my strike force. Matthaus + Cruyff + Xavi for midfield, Cafu/Maldini/Nesta/Beckenbauer for defence and Buffon as keeper
 
Messi
Ronaldinho
R9

never found ronaldo that brilliant, he has just been scoring for so long.
 
Messi at his peak is the best I've seen.
R9 and Ronaldinho would also be up there.
Phil Neville in that game against Arsenal.
 
harms said:
  • Made sure that the Salah, Mane & Firmino trio could focus on their goalscoring, breaking multiple records
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I'm aware that this is you (alongside the majority, it seems) mocking me... but yeah. That actually is my point.

Liverpool's team shouldn't have worked. They played a 4-3-3 with wingbacks. Mane and Salah were freed to cause havoc because they both had width outside them to interchange with and rack up assists. I haven't seen any teams have this as their primary tactic even against top opposition. Hell, even Barca tended to overload with only one fullback at a time.

Fabihno was their best midfielder and even he wasn't a world-beater. Their midfield was particularly great at keeping possession and dictating play. It was trio defined by a crazily high press. The forwards pressed high, the fullbacks pressed high, the midfielders pressed high.

The CBs were basically left to fend for themselves. And van Dijk never had a partner anywhere near his level, unlike every other great CB I've seen (my knowledge only goes as far back as watching Football Italia on Channel 4, so I can't talk about Beckenbauer etc.)

If you replace Mane with, for example, Diaz during that period, you have a drop-off. But without van Dijk the entire system would have broken down, as it did when his ACL went.

I notice that I was the first person to suggest a defender. In fact, it was the first suggestion who wasn't a forward. And I get that a United forum probably isn't the most fertile ground for an impromptu Virgil van Dijk Appreciation Society. But I think he was the most irreplaceable part of side that won it all and was the only competition for the most domestically dominant side I've seen in the PL.
 
Lay said:
Messi at his peak is the best I've seen.
R9 and Ronaldinho would also be up there.
Phil Neville in that game against Arsenal.
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I also agree wholehearted with this. Phil Neville, Park ji-Sung, John O'Shea... growing up it felt like you had a group of players who you kept in cold storage purely for games against us.
 
Daydreamer said:
I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
Click to expand...
I actually agree. VVD was that good that attackers didn’t even bother running near him for a year or two.
 
Van Dijk had a good season that year, but if you're going to pick a Dutch CB to add to a list like this, and use literally every single argument you've put forward, then you pick the guy who won a treble, beating the absolute cream of Europe along the way, while playing alongside Ronny Johnsen, Henning Berg and David May.
 
Daydreamer said:
I'm aware that this is you (alongside the majority, it seems) mocking me... but yeah. That actually is my point.

Liverpool's team shouldn't have worked. They played a 4-3-3 with wingbacks. Mane and Salah were freed to cause havoc because they both had width outside them to interchange with and rack up assists. I haven't seen any teams have this as their primary tactic even against top opposition. Hell, even Barca tended to overload with only one fullback at a time.

Fabihno was their best midfielder and even he wasn't a world-beater. Their midfield was particularly great at keeping possession and dictating play. It was trio defined by a crazily high press. The forwards pressed high, the fullbacks pressed high, the midfielders pressed high.

The CBs were basically left to fend for themselves. And van Dijk never had a partner anywhere near his level, unlike every other great CB I've seen (my knowledge only goes as far back as watching Football Italia on Channel 4, so I can't talk about Beckenbauer etc.)

If you replace Mane with, for example, Diaz during that period, you have a drop-off. But without van Dijk the entire system would have broken down, as it did when his ACL went.

I notice that I was the first person to suggest a defender. In fact, it was the first suggestion who wasn't a forward. And I get that a United forum probably isn't the most fertile ground for an impromptu Virgil van Dijk Appreciation Society. But I think he was the most irreplaceable part of side that won it all and was the only competition for the most domestically dominant side I've seen in the PL.
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Not often I'd agree with a Gooner about Scousers but I think you have made some valid points, VVD, whether we United fans like it or not, was the best CB in the PL by far at the time, and the comment about Mane is proving to be pretty accurate this season
 
Daydreamer said:
I'm aware that this is you (alongside the majority, it seems) mocking me... but yeah. That actually is my point.

Liverpool's team shouldn't have worked. They played a 4-3-3 with wingbacks. Mane and Salah were freed to cause havoc because they both had width outside them to interchange with and rack up assists. I haven't seen any teams have this as their primary tactic even against top opposition. Hell, even Barca tended to overload with only one fullback at a time.

Fabihno was their best midfielder and even he wasn't a world-beater. Their midfield was particularly great at keeping possession and dictating play. It was trio defined by a crazily high press. The forwards pressed high, the fullbacks pressed high, the midfielders pressed high.

The CBs were basically left to fend for themselves. And van Dijk never had a partner anywhere near his level, unlike every other great CB I've seen (my knowledge only goes as far back as watching Football Italia on Channel 4, so I can't talk about Beckenbauer etc.)

If you replace Mane with, for example, Diaz during that period, you have a drop-off. But without van Dijk the entire system would have broken down, as it did when his ACL went.

I notice that I was the first person to suggest a defender. In fact, it was the first suggestion who wasn't a forward. And I get that a United forum probably isn't the most fertile ground for an impromptu Virgil van Dijk Appreciation Society. But I think he was the most irreplaceable part of side that won it all and was the only competition for the most domestically dominant side I've seen in the PL.
Click to expand...
You're overestimating van Dijk's influence which is quite an impressive feat to achieve, considering how truly influential he was for Liverpool.

Their midfield was what helped with the fullbacks issue first and foremost — it was an extremely worksmanship-like unit with Fabinho, Henderson (whose role of covering for Trent would be the most obvious example of this support) and Wijnaldum. That system started to struggle when Klopp introduced Thiago — individually a superior player to any of the previous trio but someone who is more focused on keeping possession and leading the game instead of covering for overlapping fullbacks. Van Dijk's pace and positional play also helped them out a lot but he wasn't the only thing keeping that team together — which is evident by how poor they were at times lately even with him recovered from his injuries. There's Alisson, there's Henderson, there's team cohesiveness and an insane level of fitness — every part of it played a huge role. Would it've fallen apart without van Dijk? Yes. But it would've fallen apart without other crucial details too, just like it did.

And as someone who've seen a lot of other GOAT-level defenders, he doesn't really stand out in comparisons with them. He's probably the best defender of the past 10-15 years, at least in terms of his peak, but that's about it. And Baresi & Beckenbauer were simply better.
 
Daydreamer said:
I'd agree with this. I might add Van Dijk 18-20. His presence:
  • Allowed for an otherwise suicidal high line
  • Made up for his CB partner not being at his level
  • Allowed both FB to push up and get a ridiculous amount of assists
  • Meant that the midfield could focus on relentless pressing
  • Provided accurate long balls for the forwards when needed
Click to expand...
You have some great points here and I will explain later. Personally, I rate Van Dijk as one of the best peaks from the CB position in 80 years( not overall career). As I've seen a lot of great/goat defenders throughout my life, I can say that he does not have the best peak ever but is still one of the best in terms of the peak( Beckenabuer is the best in terms of peak and overall career) form for sure. For me, his peak standout in my eyes.

Tbf, I will make it clear. His peak(VVD) belongs to the top 5-15 in my eyes. Does he belong in the top 3 peaks of this position discussion, I'm one of those who don't think that.
 
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I mean vvd was world class that season no doubt but even just considering the past 20 years the likes of Nesta and Ferdinand had seasons that equals that or even tops it so to even bring it up in a discussion about all time greats which includes the likes of baressi, Bobby Moore and Beckenbauer is ridiculous.
 
harms said:
You're overestimating van Dijk's influence which is quite an impressive feat to achieve, considering how truly influential he was for Liverpool.

Their midfield was what helped with the fullbacks issue first and foremost — it was an extremely worksmanship-like unit with Fabinho, Henderson (whose role of covering for Trent would be the most obvious example of this support) and Wijnaldum. That system started to struggle when Klopp introduced Thiago — individually a superior player to any of the previous trio but someone who is more focused on keeping possession and leading the game instead of covering for overlapping fullbacks. Van Dijk's pace and positional play also helped them out a lot but he wasn't the only thing keeping that team together — which is evident by how poor they were at times lately even with him recovered from his injuries. There's Alisson, there's Henderson, there's team cohesiveness and an insane level of fitness — every part of it played a huge role. Would it've fallen apart without van Dijk? Yes. But it would've fallen apart without other crucial details too, just like it did.

And as someone who've seen a lot of other GOAT-level defenders, he doesn't really stand out in comparisons with them. He's probably the best defender of the past 10-15 years, at least in terms of his peak, but that's about it. And Baresi & Beckenbauer were simply better.
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Yeah, I think I haven't made my point clearly. That Liverpool side was a finely tuned machine where every part was operating at it's optimum level. I'm just saying that van Dijk was the least replaceable part. He was also the player who had the least support from his partner(s).

I intentionally left out Baresi and Beckenbauer because I never watched them play. Was Maldini a better defender than van Dijk? Yes, I would say so. But it's probably easier keeping a clean sheet playing alongside Nesta / Stam / Cafu than Robertson / Matip / Alexander-Arnold.
 
Messi for me 2010-2014

The champions league performance where he destroyed Arsenal, completely embarrassed Almunia, a hat trick before half time.



This Messi was obscene.

The CL semi against Real Madrid. So many notable performances in that window.

The year after the WC with MSN started the playmaker growth too.

Prime Messi is the best I've seen in general, R9 was a freak but Messi with his passing, pace, dribbling I can't fathom a better player.

Maradona 86 WC too.
 
Red the Bear said:
I mean vvd was world class that season no doubt but even just considering the past 20 years the likes of Nesta and Ferdinand had seasons that equals that or even tops it so to even bring it up in a discussion about all time greats which includes the likes of baressi, Bobby Moore and Beckenbauer is ridiculous.
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I thought the entire point of the thread was about an individual's peak leaving longevity out of the equation. I haven't watched many of Baresi's, Moore's or Beckenbauer's games (as I suspect is the case for most people) but I've watched a lot of Ferdinand's and Nesta's. The teams they played in relied on their individual brilliance much less and protected them far more. Milan and United dominated games in a very different way and had much better defenders in their back line. Once again, you could definitely argue that both Nesta and Ferdinand were better players than van Dijk throughout their careers. But that isn't premise of this thread. Unless I've misunderstood it - which is very possible.
 
Rightnr said:
Ronaldinho, pure entertainment
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Correct.
AndySmith1990 said:
Messi
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Hernandez - BFA said:
Messi’s peak was obscene.
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TheNewEra said:
Messi for me 2010-2014

The champions league performance where he destroyed Arsenal, completely embarrassed Almunia, a hat trick before half time.



This Messi was obscene.

The CL semi against Real Madrid. So many notable performances in that window.

The year after the WC with MSN started the playmaker growth too.

Prime Messi is the best I've seen in general, R9 was a freak but Messi with his passing, pace, dribbling I can't fathom a better player.

Maradona 86 WC too.
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And yet Chelsea kept Messi quiet almost everytime. Terry, Carvalho, Nesta, Maldini, Gattuso couldn’t keep up with Dinho. Chelsea and Milan were the best teams with best defence during his peak.
 
kaku06 said:
Correct.



And yet Chelsea kept Messi quiet almost everytime.
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Anecdotal evidence.

They won 3 champions leagues in that period, dominated everything.

He also won 5 Balon d'ors in that period, he was head and shoulders above every player.
 
TheNewEra said:
Anecdotal evidence.

They won 3 champions leagues in that period, dominated everything.

He also won 5 Balon d'ors in that period, he was head and shoulders above every player.
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Nobody could stop Ronaldinho. Name me a player or a team that had Ronaldinho in their pocket. Chelsea did that to Messi. The picture of Ronaldinho running rings around that great Milan midfield at San Siro never left me. That is the same midfield who we couldn’t even touch whenever we played Milan.
 
Peak Ronaldinho was out of this world. Nobody came close to this level of footballing genius.
 
kaku06 said:
Nobody could stop Ronaldinho. Name me a player or a team that had Ronaldinho in their pocket. Chelsea did that to Messi. The picture of Ronaldinho running rings around that great Milan midfield at San Siro never left me. That is the same midfield who we couldn’t even touch whenever we played Milan.
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Ronaldinho was fun to watch, but he wasn't as effective or devastating.
 
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