Harry Kane | Bayern Munich player

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
You say hypotheticals are pointless but in the same post say Kane couldn't do the business in a world cup final. A theoretical point.

You're picking and choosing to suit your argument.
Please try and understand what I'm saying. This is the second person to claim I said this. I'm not talking specifically about the World Cup final. I'm talking about any huge game where the world is watching. Like the Euros final, for example. Kane cannot do what Mbappe did in that game and we know this because he has never done it and he's had several chances. There's nothing hypothetical about it.
 

Mourinhonista

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
1,038
Location
Munich
Mbappe scored 4 goals in the final 3 were penalties, you think Kane will have a problem scoring these when penalties are his strong point. Likely one of the best PK shooters around
He missed the second one against France when the team needed it most. So yeah, you see the problem.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
He missed the second one against France when the team needed it most. So yeah, you see the problem.
Thank you. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

It's all academic anyway. Kane has failed in big spots his whole career but he could have more opportunities coming up if England go Deep in the Euros and Bayern get to the business end of the CL (a team that's better than Spurs so there are no excuses). Let's see how he does.
 

kaiser1

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
1,890
Supports
Bayern Munich
He missed the second one against France when the team needed it most. So yeah, you see the problem.
Kane missed 1 at the World cup quarter which knocked his team out
Mbappe missed one at the Euro quarters vs Swiss which knocked his team out

Mbappe scored PKs at the world cup final
Kane scored PK at the Euro final

Both have never won a CL only played 1 final
 

Ish

Lights on for Luke
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
31,900
Location
Voted the best city in the world
I would love to have him right now at Real Madrid. I think it's a shame he spent so much time at Tottenham and he was also unlucky in the sense that a lot of the top teams already had good strikers on their prime.
Yeah, absolutely. And Levi would have made it very difficult for him to move to a local club (see his City attempted move 2 years ago etc.). His only outside and realistic options were your lot, Bayern, Barca & potentially PSG - though I never saw him choosing PSG myself.

Partly it's also on him for spending so much time at Spurs tbh. He had tons of loyalty and some even doubted if he'd ever have the ambition to leave - so on all counts, I'm glad he's done it.
 

Marwood

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Messages
4,212
Please try and understand what I'm saying. This is the second person to claim I said this. I'm not talking specifically about the World Cup final. I'm talking about any huge game where the world is watching. Like the Euros final, for example. Kane cannot do what Mbappe did in that game and we know this because he has never done it and he's had several chances. There's nothing hypothetical about it.
I'm not claiming you said it, you did say it. Dodging questions when they don't suit your argument doesn't create much of a debate.

Anyway, your logic on this takes you down several rabbit holes.

England haven't won anything since '66, so your argument means Shearer, Lineker, Rooney, Owen, Robson etc were all lesser players as a result.

Mbappe doing nothing in a Champs League final means he's a lesser player.

Conversley when Kane suddenly starts winning trophies, as he now will, he's suddenly overnight become a better player at 30?

None of that makes sense and that's the problem with judging individuals by a teams results or by how they perform in one off games.
 
Last edited:

Trezeguet17

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
297
I wonder why Bayern did not buy Eder instead of Kane. He proved that he is a man that can produce in the big moments with his goal in the Euro Final.

By caf standards he is not only the better player but also had a better career than Kane because of that goal.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
I'm not claiming you said it, you did say it. Dodging questions when they don't suit your argument doesn't create much of a debate.

Anyway, your logic on this takes you down several rabbit holes.

England haven't won anything since '66, so your argument means Shearer, Lineker, Rooney, Owen, Robson etc were all lesser players as a result.

Mbappe doing nothing in a Champs League final means he's a lesser player.

Conversley when Kane suddenly starts winning trophies, as he now will, he's suddenly overnight become a better player at 30?

None of that makes sense and that's the problem with judging individuals by a teams results or by how they perform in one off games.
OK, so you don't understand what I said. No biggie. Let's address some of the other things you said:

England haven't won anything so a bunch of names are lesser players. Well, yes, essentially. Who is the greatest ever England player? A lot of people are claiming the late Bobby Charlton was. Why do they say that? If you make a list of the 100 best players of all time, where do the players that you've listed rank? By those standards, England have had very few elite players.

Your problem is that you are judging Kane by premier league or local standards. I'm judging him by world and historical standards.

'Conversely, when Kane starts winning trophies as he now will'

Will he? Let's see how he's done so far. Super cup? Lost. Cup? Knocked out. League? Not even top of the table as things stand. Now Bayern could win the league of course because they win it every year, but will Kane lead them to a CL win, which is what they bought him for? Doubtful. Will he lead England to a Euros win? I have my doubts but we'll see.
 

Marwood

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Messages
4,212
OK, so you don't understand what I said. No biggie. Let's address some of the other things you said:

England haven't won anything so a bunch of names are lesser players. Well, yes, essentially. Who is the greatest ever England player? A lot of people are claiming the late Bobby Charlton was. Why do they say that? If you make a list of the 100 best players of all time, where do the players that you've listed rank? By those standards, England have had very few elite players.

Your problem is that you are judging Kane by premier league or local standards. I'm judging him by world and historical standards.

'Conversely, when Kane starts winning trophies as he now will'

Will he? Let's see how he's done so far. Super cup? Lost. Cup? Knocked out. League? Not even top of the table as things stand. Now Bayern could win the league of course because they win it every year, but will Kane lead them to a CL win, which is what they bought him for? Doubtful. Will he lead England to a Euros win? I have my doubts but we'll see.
So the only way Kane can prove himself to you as one of the best is if Bayern win the Champs League or England win the Euros? Just to clarify.

And just to double check the logic further, Mbappe's domestic record means he's not top level right? Because they haven't won the Champions League and like Bayern, will win league's with or without him.
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
12,546
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München
The sequel to the much beloved Not-the-Jamal-Musiala-thread, "Not-the-Harry-Kane-thread: Attack of the Mbappe fanboys"
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
So the only way Kane can prove himself to you as one of the best is if Bayern win the Champs League or England win the Euros? Just to clarify.

And just to double check the logic further, Mbappe's domestic record means he's not top level right? Because they haven't won the Champions League and like Bayern, will win league's with or without him.
Question one - one of the best what? This is what I'm talking about, there are levels to this. Is Kane one of the best strikers in the world? Yes. Is he the best striker in the world? Not for me. Is he one of the greatest strikers of all time? Again, not for me. One of the best PL strikers for sure, but that's a small pond which the UK tends to think of as the be all and end all.

Again, it's not just how many goals you score (although that matters), it's when you score them and who you score them against. That's what the difference in levels is. For a guy to get to age 30 and have not a single trophy to his name is bad. Name another player in history who is one of the greats for whom that is the case? 'bu-but Spurs' - is it the law that he has to play for Spurs? Where's his ambition? Even assuming that it is absolutely impossible to win with them, which I don't accept at all.

Question two - dude, Mbappe won the French league with Monaco. Probably best not to use him in any respect to try and prove that Harry Kane is the guy you think he is.
 

Selbourne

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
990
Kane if you have watched him is an elite passer of the ball and obviously an even more elite goal scorer. feck the americanism's that's been plagued online football discusssion the last few years, footballers shouldn't be defined by trophies... but with how well we judge them when watching.
 
Last edited:

MoskvaRed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
5,230
Location
Not Moskva
Defining footballers by trophies makes no sense in a team sport, particularly football where there is no one dominant position akin to QB in NFL. It’s all about the context of the team, otherwise you end up concluding that all United’s glory years players were better than the likes of Robson, McGrath and Buchan, which is obviously false. Kane has only played in two big finals, one of which where he should not gave been selected on fitness grounds. He did fade in the Euro final in 2021 but the entire team was being pushed back for the last 60 minutes of normal time because England’s midfield was being outplayed (and Southgate is unable to respond to in game developments).
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
Kane if you have watched him is an elite passer of the ball and obviously an even more elite goal scorer. feck the americanism's that's been plagued online football discusssion the last few years, footballers shouldn't be defined by trophies... but with how well we judge them when watching.
If you really think Kane is an 'elite passer' then your bar for elite passing must be very low. This is exactly the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about. Is Kane a good passer for a striker? Yes, he's obviously worked a lot on that side of his game. Have I ever watched Kane and mistaken him for Andres Iniesta? Uh, no.

Also, the judgment is more specifically on his performances in the biggest games. Performing well in these greatly increases your chances of silverware. If you've seen loads of examples of this from Kane, then I'm all ears.
 

Pascal Quiff

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 8, 2022
Messages
295
Supports
Liverpool
If you really think Kane is an 'elite passer' then your bar for elite passing must be very low. This is exactly the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about. Is Kane a good passer for a striker? Yes, he's obviously worked a lot on that side of his game. Have I ever watched Kane and mistaken him for Andres Iniesta? Uh, no.

Also, the judgment is more specifically on his performances in the biggest games. Performing well in these greatly increases your chances of silverware. If you've seen loads of examples of this from Kane, then I'm all ears.
Judging players on whether they scored or not in the final of a competition that they likely played a key part in helping their team to get to is a bit daft. I thought that it was a universally accepted truth that Kane is one of the few elite strikers in world football - are you arguing this because he missed a penalty? I'm not including the fact that he ruined Spurs' chances in the CL final....he blatantly was not fit to play, but I'm sure that we can all understand his reasoning for wanting to make it onto the pitch.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
Judging players on whether they scored or not in the final of a competition that they likely played a key part in helping their team to get to is a bit daft. I thought that it was a universally accepted truth that Kane is one of the few elite strikers in world football - are you arguing this because he missed a penalty? I'm not including the fact that he ruined Spurs' chances in the CL final....he blatantly was not fit to play, but I'm sure that we can all understand his reasoning for wanting to make it onto the pitch.
I've been through this so many times but here we go again. The CL final. The couple of EFL finals. The Euros final. The Nations League semi final. The World Cup semi final. Etc etc. Bagels in all. Not even the odd consolation goal in a loss.

It's not about him not scoring in ONE GAME, it's a pattern of repeated failure in the biggest spots. I think the stat is that he's played in 13 finals or semi finals in his career and scored 3 goals. It's not good enough. Many people blame it on Spurs or England or both. I prefer not to do that.
 

FortunaUtd

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2023
Messages
472
Location
Rhineland
Will he? Let's see how he's done so far. Super cup? Lost. Cup? Knocked out. League? Not even top of the table as things stand. Now Bayern could win the league of course because they win it every year, but will Kane lead them to a CL win, which is what they bought him for? Doubtful. Will he lead England to a Euros win? I have my doubts but we'll see.
I could point out to you that both the Supercup loss and the Pokal loss were exactly two games in which Kane did not play, but you seem to be resolved to die on that hill eh
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
I could point out to you that both the Supercup loss and the Pokal loss were exactly two games in which Kane did not play, but you seem to be resolved to die on that hill eh
False. He played in the Super Cup game, came on as a sub. Obviously I watch him more than you do, hence my greater understanding of his extreme case of not-the-guy-for-the-big-moment-itis.

I brought those things up not to claim they were big games that he flopped in (they obviously were not) but rather to counter the supposed inevitability (mooted by another Kane apologist in the thread) of him winning trophies at his new home. I was jokingly pointing out that he's already missed multiple opportunities, in typical Kane style :D

He'll probably get there, but he's taking his sweet time about it. And I don't think he'll lead them to the CL or England to the Euros, but we'll see.
 

padr81

Full Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
11,833
Supports
Man City
I think Kane is so prolific he must have at some stage scored on Andrades missus, given the level disrespect the man has for him.
 

kaku06

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2022
Messages
2,235
False. He played in the Super Cup game, came on as a sub. Obviously I watch him more than you do, hence my greater understanding of his extreme case of not-the-guy-for-the-big-moment-itis.

I brought those things up not to claim they were big games that he flopped in (they obviously were not) but rather to counter the supposed inevitability (mooted by another Kane apologist in the thread) of him winning trophies at his new home. I was jokingly pointing out that he's already missed multiple opportunities, in typical Kane style :D

He'll probably get there, but he's taking his sweet time about it. And I don't think he'll lead them to the CL or England to the Euros, but we'll see.
Where do you rank Thierry Henry? Based on your logic he wasn’t very good too.
 

ayushreddevil9

Foootball hinders the adrenaline of transfers.
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
10,142
Jesse Lingard > Harry Kane because he scored the winner in the FA cup final, la.
 

FortunaUtd

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2023
Messages
472
Location
Rhineland
False. He played in the Super Cup game, came on as a sub. Obviously I watch him more than you do, hence my greater understanding of his extreme case of not-the-guy-for-the-big-moment-itis.

I brought those things up not to claim they were big games that he flopped in (they obviously were not) but rather to counter the supposed inevitability (mooted by another Kane apologist in the thread) of him winning trophies at his new home. I was jokingly pointing out that he's already missed multiple opportunities, in typical Kane style :D

He'll probably get there, but he's taking his sweet time about it. And I don't think he'll lead them to the CL or England to the Euros, but we'll see.
Yes, he came on in the second half at the score of 0-2 after having joined the club literally the same morning.. what a bottler eh.

Your argumentation is so fixated and idiotic, and your tone so ostentatiously arrogant that honestly at this point I have to assume your wumming, so let us leave it at that.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
Yes, he came on in the second half at the score of 0-2 after having joined the club literally the same morning.. what a bottler eh.

Your argumentation is so obviously fixated and idiotic and your tone so ostentatiously arrogant that honestly at this point I have to assume your wumming, so let us leave it at that.
I know you like others are heavily invested in making excuses for his failures. I get it.

The other guy said he didn't play in that game, I was merely pointing out that he did and also making a wry comment on the supposed inevitability of Kane automatically winning trophies now he is at Bayern (because of course it is literally impossible to win anything with Spurs). Try and read what I actually wrote before making dumb comments about my 'argumentation'. He vanishes in the biggest games. That's my actual argument. Prove me wrong. Sadly, you can't.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
29,781
Supports
Everton
Kane has a crap record in knockout games of competitions. It's not really up for debate, it's fact. That doesn't mean he's a top forward but it does mean when you stack him up against the best of the best in the world, it stands against him because his individual exploits (in other games) end up counting for nothing. Bayern gives him a chance to rectify that.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
35,277
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
Kane has a crap record in knockout games of competitions. It's not really up for debate, it's fact. That doesn't mean he's a top forward but it does mean when you stack him up against the best of the best in the world, it stands against him because his individual exploits (in other games) end up counting for nothing. Bayern gives him a chance to rectify that.
Agree with this - I think context is also important in that in important games, tactics might have played against him?

What I mean is that I feel Southgate goes very negative whenever he's up against good opposition, which makes Kane's job more difficult in that situation. I can't really remember his performances or his team's performances in Spurs's big games, so I can't really speak for that.

Although, mitigating the above, his performance in the semi in 2018 against Croatia was downright poor - England should've been 2 or 3-0 up at half time, and it was his selfishness and performance that was a big reason for them not taking advantage of the domination.
 

ayushreddevil9

Foootball hinders the adrenaline of transfers.
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
10,142
Every top forward Kane is being compared to has/is playing with a world class squad. Given that he spent his entire career at Spurs and still manages to be a part of this debate provides enough evidence that he will score if he has enough support.

England under Southgate? Leave Kane aside, not even other outfield players manage to score a non-setpiece goal due to his cowardly tactics. It's not like he was playing for Argentina, France or Brazil who create a lot of chances.

If the argument is that Kane basically has to do all the work by himself then its the most idiotic argument I will ever read in this regard.

Let the season pan out and see what he does with Bayern. This myth of him disappearing in big games will be addressed I believe.
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
5,727
Supports
Hannover 96
Every top forward Kane is being compared to has/is playing with a world class squad. Given that he spent his entire career at Spurs and still manages to be a part of this debate provides enough evidence that he will score if he has enough support.

England under Southgate? Leave Kane aside, not even other outfield players manage to score a non-setpiece goal due to his cowardly tactics. It's not like he was playing for Argentina, France or Brazil who create a lot of chances.

If the argument is that Kane basically has to do all the work by himself then its the most idiotic argument I will ever read in this regard.

Let the season pan out and see what he does with Bayern. This myth of him disappearing in big games will be addressed I believe.
People who don't like him will turn this against him just the other way - "it wasn't a big game for Bayern because they are so far ahead of <insert whatever team they meet in the CL (semi)final>"
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,242
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
I've been through this so many times but here we go again. The CL final. The couple of EFL finals. The Euros final. The Nations League semi final. The World Cup semi final. Etc etc. Bagels in all. Not even the odd consolation goal in a loss.

It's not about him not scoring in ONE GAME, it's a pattern of repeated failure in the biggest spots. I think the stat is that he's played in 13 finals or semi finals in his career and scored 3 goals. It's not good enough. Many people blame it on Spurs or England or both. I prefer not to do that.
On one hand I don't think anyone gives a feck about the Nations League semi-final and when, like the CL final a few days earlier, he was clearly unfit. But on the whole I'd agree his big-game record for England needs work - he's the anti-Lineker in many ways. Both were top scorers with 6 in their first World Cup - Kane scored all of his in the first half of the tournament, Lineker's all came in the second half. In the quarter-finals of their second World Cups - with England about to crash out - both have two penalties to salvage the game. Lineker puts both of his away, Kane misses one of his. Lineker then scores a massive goal late in the semi-final.
 
Last edited:

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Scout
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
22,104
Location
Inside right
I find the backlash against @Andrade quite OTT. He's barely saying anything controversial and is also caveating his posts, which seems to be swept under the rug by those replying.

At every level of the sport, the measure of a player is how well they perform on the stages presented to them; how they handle individual moments of great pressure - career defining moments. Nobody should act like this isn't the case, unless you've never entered or seen a discussion about footballing greatness, you already know this to be the case. Even Messi and Ronaldo are scrutinised by this measure, which tells you no player is exempt from it. And it's not at all new, not new at all - players always have to do something special at special moments to be in the running for individual awards, for example. Gerd Muller is seen as the absolute gold standard of strikers because of these measures - he excelled on every available platform, his record is flawless, which is why he's always top 3 (at a bare minimum, usually he, Ronaldo and Van Basten vying for #1) in any all-time striker discussion.

Kane's never seen as a bad player or average or merely good, but if he's going to be defined as great or, in particular, the greatest of his era or the best in the entire world, he is going to be held to the scrutiny of his performances on the greatest stages presented to him. At the level being talked about, amassing a vast number of goals is a given; it's what gets him to the table to be discussed in this class in the first place, so people shouldn't act like the prerequisites aren't accepted - only a fool would say Kane isn't scoring enough goals to be considered special. What is up for discussion at this level is how he has performed at key junctures in his own career to date: key moments in the biggest games for club and country; his impact, performance and effectiveness therein. You don't need to caveat anything with but it's Spurs/England, Kane has had opportunities to decide key games for both, he absolutely has. In those instances someone like Benzema has shown his mettle and exceeded his performance level in the lesser games of the season. This isn't about the star-spangled squads they do or do not play for, rather than how they as individuals play in that moment on that stage with the kind of pressure added to the game that doesn't come around during the regular parts of the season, where strikers of this calibre tally for fun. It doesn't even necessarily revolve around winning the trophy at the end of the tournament - but that's another discussion - as there are countless examples of great forwards being given the plaudits for their performances and exploits even in defeat in these key games, Mbappe in the WC final being an easy example to cite, but players like Cruyff, Puskas, Baggio or Robben over numerous World Cups where their teams did not win the trophy.

Cut away the chaff and assess Kane for those key games; was his performance level the same, lesser or better than usual? That's the crux of discussion and it doesn't really need a politician's answer or skirting to something else for the whys and wherefores. The only one accepted is injury, anyway, as it is for literally any player who is at that level where they're even being grouped as the best of the best. These are the games that define them; the reminder tell you that they have it about them to be part of the discussion in the first place. You don't have to have anything at all against Kane to question his performances in these kind of games, which is where it feels @Andrade is being attacked for scrutinising the player in the manner he should and will be if he's being elevated to literal best in class.

Kane still has a fair few years to make the impression some are saying he has already left on the club and international game. I don't think anyone is reticent to give him his plaudits once they are due should he crossover from a consistent scorer in lower pressure affairs to the man for the bigger occasions like everyone at the top of these classes is or was.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
29,781
Supports
Everton
Agree with this - I think context is also important in that in important games, tactics might have played against him?

What I mean is that I feel Southgate goes very negative whenever he's up against good opposition, which makes Kane's job more difficult in that situation. I can't really remember his performances or his team's performances in Spurs's big games, so I can't really speak for that.

Although, mitigating the above, his performance in the semi in 2018 against Croatia was downright poor - England should've been 2 or 3-0 up at half time, and it was his selfishness and performance that was a big reason for them not taking advantage of the domination.
I find the backlash against @Andrade quite OTT. He's barely saying anything controversial and is also caveating his posts, which seems to be swept under the rug by those replying.

At every level of the sport, the measure of a player is how well they perform on the stages presented to them; how they handle individual moments of great pressure - career defining moments. Nobody should act like this isn't the case, unless you've never entered or seen a discussion about footballing greatness, you already know this to be the case. Even Messi and Ronaldo are scrutinised by this measure, which tells you no player is exempt from it. And it's not at all new, not new at all - players always have to do something special at special moments to be in the running for individual awards, for example. Gerd Muller is seen as the absolute gold standard of strikers because of these measures - he excelled on every available platform, his record is flawless, which is why he's always top 3 (at a bare minimum, usually he, Ronaldo and Van Basten vying for #1) in any all-time striker discussion.

Kane's never seen as a bad player or average or merely good, but if he's going to be defined as great or, in particular, the greatest of his era or the best in the entire world, he is going to be held to the scrutiny of his performances on the greatest stages presented to him. At the level being talked about, amassing a vast number of goals is a given; it's what gets him to the table to be discussed in this class in the first place, so people shouldn't act like the prerequisites aren't accepted - only a fool would say Kane isn't scoring enough goals to be considered special. What is up for discussion at this level is how he has performed at key junctures in his own career to date: key moments in the biggest games for club and country; his impact, performance and effectiveness therein. You don't need to caveat anything with but it's Spurs/England, Kane has had opportunities to decide key games for both, he absolutely has. In those instances someone like Benzema has shown his mettle and exceeded his performance level in the lesser games of the season. This isn't about the star-spangled squads they do or do not play for, rather than how they as individuals play in that moment on that stage with the kind of pressure added to the game that doesn't come around during the regular parts of the season, where strikers of this calibre tally for fun. It doesn't even necessarily revolve around winning the trophy at the end of the tournament - but that's another discussion - as there are countless examples of great forwards being given the plaudits for their performances and exploits even in defeat in these key games, Mbappe in the WC final being an easy example to cite, but players like Cruyff, Puskas, Baggio or Robben over numerous World Cups where their teams did not win the trophy.

Cut away the chaff and assess Kane for those key games; was his performance level the same, lesser or better than usual? That's the crux of discussion and it doesn't really need a politician's answer or skirting to something else for the whys and wherefores. The only one accepted is injury, anyway, as it is for literally any player who is at that level where they're even being grouped as the best of the best. These are the games that define them; the reminder tell you that they have it about them to be part of the discussion in the first place. You don't have to have anything at all against Kane to question his performances in these kind of games, which is where it feels @Andrade is being attacked for scrutinising the player in the manner he should and will be if he's being elevated to literal best in class.

Kane still has a fair few years to make the impression some are saying he has already left on the club and international game. I don't think anyone is reticent to give him his plaudits once they are due should he crossover from a consistent scorer in lower pressure affairs to the man for the bigger occasions like everyone at the top of these classes is or was.
Good posts and agree with both.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
35,277
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
I find the backlash against @Andrade quite OTT. He's barely saying anything controversial and is also caveating his posts, which seems to be swept under the rug by those replying.

At every level of the sport, the measure of a player is how well they perform on the stages presented to them; how they handle individual moments of great pressure - career defining moments. Nobody should act like this isn't the case, unless you've never entered or seen a discussion about footballing greatness, you already know this to be the case. Even Messi and Ronaldo are scrutinised by this measure, which tells you no player is exempt from it. And it's not at all new, not new at all - players always have to do something special at special moments to be in the running for individual awards, for example. Gerd Muller is seen as the absolute gold standard of strikers because of these measures - he excelled on every available platform, his record is flawless, which is why he's always top 3 (at a bare minimum, usually he, Ronaldo and Van Basten vying for #1) in any all-time striker discussion.

Kane's never seen as a bad player or average or merely good, but if he's going to be defined as great or, in particular, the greatest of his era or the best in the entire world, he is going to be held to the scrutiny of his performances on the greatest stages presented to him. At the level being talked about, amassing a vast number of goals is a given; it's what gets him to the table to be discussed in this class in the first place, so people shouldn't act like the prerequisites aren't accepted - only a fool would say Kane isn't scoring enough goals to be considered special. What is up for discussion at this level is how he has performed at key junctures in his own career to date: key moments in the biggest games for club and country; his impact, performance and effectiveness therein. You don't need to caveat anything with but it's Spurs/England, Kane has had opportunities to decide key games for both, he absolutely has. In those instances someone like Benzema has shown his mettle and exceeded his performance level in the lesser games of the season. This isn't about the star-spangled squads they do or do not play for, rather than how they as individuals play in that moment on that stage with the kind of pressure added to the game that doesn't come around during the regular parts of the season, where strikers of this calibre tally for fun. It doesn't even necessarily revolve around winning the trophy at the end of the tournament - but that's another discussion - as there are countless examples of great forwards being given the plaudits for their performances and exploits even in defeat in these key games, Mbappe in the WC final being an easy example to cite, but players like Cruyff, Puskas, Baggio or Robben over numerous World Cups where their teams did not win the trophy.

Cut away the chaff and assess Kane for those key games; was his performance level the same, lesser or better than usual? That's the crux of discussion and it doesn't really need a politician's answer or skirting to something else for the whys and wherefores. The only one accepted is injury, anyway, as it is for literally any player who is at that level where they're even being grouped as the best of the best. These are the games that define them; the reminder tell you that they have it about them to be part of the discussion in the first place. You don't have to have anything at all against Kane to question his performances in these kind of games, which is where it feels @Andrade is being attacked for scrutinising the player in the manner he should and will be if he's being elevated to literal best in class.

Kane still has a fair few years to make the impression some are saying he has already left on the club and international game. I don't think anyone is reticent to give him his plaudits once they are due should he crossover from a consistent scorer in lower pressure affairs to the man for the bigger occasions like everyone at the top of these classes is or was.
Good posts and agree with both.
While I agree with the jist of this, I would caveat it by saying that I do believe Andrade is being slightly too harsh with Kane. We're not only talking about Kane's theoretical legacy and standing of the game in general, but more about right now. And I'm not quite sure he gives Kane the recognition he deserves, from the few posts I have read. Not that it particularly matters, though.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,571
Kane is far from the only elite level no.9 who doesn't score in finals or semi finals. One's just won a treble doing it.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
29,781
Supports
Everton
Kane is far from the only elite level no.9 who doesn't score in finals or semi finals. One's just won a treble doing it.
Yeah, but then for almost all forwards you can level that at to (Such as Haaland, Lewa etc.) they have the trophies and individual records broken to back up their scoring achievements through the season.

Haaland for example was top scorer in both the PL and CL last season, scored twice in the German Cup final he won with Dortmund etc.

As said before though, I do expect Kane to rectify that this season.
 

Andrade

Rebuilding Expert
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,460
I find the backlash against @Andrade quite OTT. He's barely saying anything controversial and is also caveating his posts, which seems to be swept under the rug by those replying.

At every level of the sport, the measure of a player is how well they perform on the stages presented to them; how they handle individual moments of great pressure - career defining moments. Nobody should act like this isn't the case, unless you've never entered or seen a discussion about footballing greatness, you already know this to be the case. Even Messi and Ronaldo are scrutinised by this measure, which tells you no player is exempt from it. And it's not at all new, not new at all - players always have to do something special at special moments to be in the running for individual awards, for example. Gerd Muller is seen as the absolute gold standard of strikers because of these measures - he excelled on every available platform, his record is flawless, which is why he's always top 3 (at a bare minimum, usually he, Ronaldo and Van Basten vying for #1) in any all-time striker discussion.

Kane's never seen as a bad player or average or merely good, but if he's going to be defined as great or, in particular, the greatest of his era or the best in the entire world, he is going to be held to the scrutiny of his performances on the greatest stages presented to him. At the level being talked about, amassing a vast number of goals is a given; it's what gets him to the table to be discussed in this class in the first place, so people shouldn't act like the prerequisites aren't accepted - only a fool would say Kane isn't scoring enough goals to be considered special. What is up for discussion at this level is how he has performed at key junctures in his own career to date: key moments in the biggest games for club and country; his impact, performance and effectiveness therein. You don't need to caveat anything with but it's Spurs/England, Kane has had opportunities to decide key games for both, he absolutely has. In those instances someone like Benzema has shown his mettle and exceeded his performance level in the lesser games of the season. This isn't about the star-spangled squads they do or do not play for, rather than how they as individuals play in that moment on that stage with the kind of pressure added to the game that doesn't come around during the regular parts of the season, where strikers of this calibre tally for fun. It doesn't even necessarily revolve around winning the trophy at the end of the tournament - but that's another discussion - as there are countless examples of great forwards being given the plaudits for their performances and exploits even in defeat in these key games, Mbappe in the WC final being an easy example to cite, but players like Cruyff, Puskas, Baggio or Robben over numerous World Cups where their teams did not win the trophy.

Cut away the chaff and assess Kane for those key games; was his performance level the same, lesser or better than usual? That's the crux of discussion and it doesn't really need a politician's answer or skirting to something else for the whys and wherefores. The only one accepted is injury, anyway, as it is for literally any player who is at that level where they're even being grouped as the best of the best. These are the games that define them; the reminder tell you that they have it about them to be part of the discussion in the first place. You don't have to have anything at all against Kane to question his performances in these kind of games, which is where it feels @Andrade is being attacked for scrutinising the player in the manner he should and will be if he's being elevated to literal best in class.

Kane still has a fair few years to make the impression some are saying he has already left on the club and international game. I don't think anyone is reticent to give him his plaudits once they are due should he crossover from a consistent scorer in lower pressure affairs to the man for the bigger occasions like everyone at the top of these classes is or was.
Thank you sir. I'm not saying anything bizarre , I don't know why people are pretending that I am. It's all about levels. I never said that Kane is an average or bad player and I defy anyone to find any post where I said that.