I don't understand this thread
Has Ronaldo just settled current generation's GOAT debate?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Exactly
Its such a fanboyism argument. If you think Ronaldo is better...then thats fine. But to say he is better on the basis of this match is just ridiclous.
A captain's job is to lead. Lead their team to victory. He damn well look like he was leading the entire competition to me.
This is the worst thread I've ever seen on redcafe, and that includes the building a wall thread.
Ronaldo proved he was better than Messi because Portugal won a game he didn't play in where the winning goal was scored by some guy who couldn't get in the Swansea team? This should not compute anywhere outside of the mind of Glen Hoddle.
Perhaps Messi is even better than Ronaldo because Ronaldo merely led Portugal to victory whilst not playing, while Messi led them to victory whilst not even being Portugese. A much more impressive fete.
Perhaps Messi is even better than Ronaldo because Ronaldo merely led Portugal to victory whilst not playing, while Messi led them to victory whilst not even being Portugese. A much more impressive fete.
The 6% voting for option two remind me of those 7% of UKIP supporters who voted to remain in the EU.
Well, it's true that his captaincy should be merited in this tournament, but captaincy hasn't really ever factored much into GOAT discussions, has it? Ronaldo hasn't even been a captain for his clubs (even Pepe is ahead of him at Real Madrid in that regard), and it's his club form that brought him into GOAT discussions.
The gist of it is that Portugal without Ronaldo did better in a final than Argentina did with Messi. That's completely inconclusive in terms of pure logic.
So, now the conversation about the GOAT has to be about the years that fit a concrete criteria, not all? Should rename the term to Greatest of the Years I See Fit, aka GYISF
He scored 4 goals, assisted another, and gave the last touch before the goal in 2 more, Messi was the key player behind 7 or Argentina's 8 goals, he dribbled more than any other player (46, Robben did 29 dribbles, Maradona 50 in Mexico 86') and created more chances than any other player in the tournament in a team where Romero, Rojo, Demichelis, Biglia, Enzo Perez and Gago were regular starters. Argentina was a piss poor team that worked because Messi, Di Maria and Mascherano held it together, once Di Maria couldn't play they became an abomination with Messi having to run the show all by himself
http://www.firstpost.com/sports/wor...o-stop-messing-with-lionel-messi-1598777.html
Ronaldo for me, and this latest trophy is an icing on cake.
Ronaldo has won in two leagues, 3 CL with two different teams and now has an international trophy.
Messi dominated Spain but he had two all time greats with him (Xavi and Iniesta). More recently he had Suarez and Neymar.
No doubt Barcelona is the better team, and Messi is better technically, but he's not proven he can win trophies without Barcelona.
Ronaldo has, with us, and now with Portugal.
Ronaldo has won in two leagues, 3 CL with two different teams and now has an international trophy.
Messi dominated Spain but he had two all time greats with him (Xavi and Iniesta). More recently he had Suarez and Neymar.
No doubt Barcelona is the better team, and Messi is better technically, but he's not proven he can win trophies without Barcelona.
Ronaldo has, with us, and now with Portugal.
But Messi won an Olympic gold....
To be fair, Maradona did provide the crucial assist to the winning goal in the final though, while scoring 5 goals with 5 assists in the tournament. Ronaldo is only part of team to win the Euro, while scoring 3 goals and 3 assists in the tournament. You can say Ronaldo is one of Portugal success factor and did his fair bit of contribution, but Maradona was the absolute star of the tournament.I don't think I brought Maradona's 86 world cup in the argument, someone else did.
But, Maradona did not do anything in the Final and depended on his teammates to win the trophy for him. That's a FACHT
He took them to final by playing brilliantly in the semi-final, just like Ronaldo took Portugal to the final
So you think Messi couldn't win a different league if he stepped outside of the Liga BBVA?
Are you Glenn Hoddle?
He probably could but he hasn't done it has he?
On paper he could win Liga BBVA every season too but has he?
Ronaldo has the EPL medal at home (or whatever he keeps it), it's not theoretical.
He hasn't done because he's too good a player for any club to ever hope to be able to afford him. It's not rocket science, mate.
This is the kind of debate I'd expect to hear in 20 years from people who never saw them play, with their opinions based entirely on stats. Ridiculous.
Ronaldo has been average at best this tournament. Portugal have also been average. Of course you need luck to win, but it's hard to deny they've had more than their fair share. I mean Iceland, Austria, Hungary, then Croatia, Poland and Wales! Has there ever been an easier run to a final? And still they've only won ONE game in normal time! I think if you really wanted to make the argument that Ronaldo was the better player you could do a lot better than point to this tournament!
Messi is clearly the better player. He can do things no other player can dream of doing. Ronaldo may be the best professional of all time - I don't think a finer athlete has ever played - but he's nowhere near Messi for talent (and the application of that talent).
Also - he player what? 20minutes?? This is surely a wind up.
Ronaldo has been average at best this tournament. Portugal have also been average. Of course you need luck to win, but it's hard to deny they've had more than their fair share. I mean Iceland, Austria, Hungary, then Croatia, Poland and Wales! Has there ever been an easier run to a final? And still they've only won ONE game in normal time! I think if you really wanted to make the argument that Ronaldo was the better player you could do a lot better than point to this tournament!
Messi is clearly the better player. He can do things no other player can dream of doing. Ronaldo may be the best professional of all time - I don't think a finer athlete has ever played - but he's nowhere near Messi for talent (and the application of that talent).
Also - he player what? 20minutes?? This is surely a wind up.
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He could force a move if he wanted to prove himself in another league, run his contract down.
He hasn't, and that's fine (loyalty and all that) but that's why he is a great player in the best team in recent times, not someone that wins with every team he plays for.
This is why is Marc Overmars is better than Ryan Giggs, who never proved himself outside of the Premier League.
Neither is in GOAT discussion.
And Giggs won tons more than Overmars.
This isn't the case for Messi vs Ronaldo.
Messi won a bit more, not the overwhelming difference between Giggs and Overmars.
Name another in GOAT discussion that has only ever won with one team.
This is an international tournament - no team has it easy. Arguing they've had to face Austria, Iceland and whoever you want to name is simply lazy IMO - it's not as if it's a given that Portugal would beat them, because they are not a really strong side themselves - they simply earned the victory through hard work. And they still had to overcome France who has managed to beat the likes of Germany directly and a few other top teams indirectly.
Again that's lazy. Besides I thought we're talking about Messi and not Ronaldinho! Messi is as effective as any player could ever possibly be - but no, he can't do things no other player can dream of doing. That's in fact one of the very few ways you could actually overrate Messi.
Anyway I'm all done here - no amount of arguing is going to change the supporters' beliefs be it Messi's or Ronaldo's and I certainly know who I'd pick in my team first. This has been a very happy tournament for obvious reasons and I can now get back to things I care more about - United.
Yes, he is the best!
Future united manager?
The whole goat of all time in almost any sport in particular is always kind of silly to me. It's all so personal. Both are some of the greatest players of all time, but are they truly better than the Cruyfs, Peles, etc of the world? Is LeBron a better player than Jordan was? The former winning a title with an inferior team despite being physically more gifted than Jordan, while the latter had some of the time s best players around him? Is Federer truly the greatest tennis player despite Sampras having to compete against a field that was way more loaded than it is these days? Too many factors at play, that imho are often clouded by, and not clarified by stats.
Exactly. It's absurd.
Portugal winning a final in which Ronaldo didn't play has apparently elevated Ronaldo's ability and standing in the game. It's fecking insane.
And if the argument is that he was important for them throughout the tournament that they ultimately won then surely Nani's just went from being considered a United reject to a world class winger in high demand. Or does only one of their players stock significantly rise here? Laughably the one that didn't play in the final
Love the picture Rossi posted of Ronaldo and SAF! My exact thoughts when I saw Ronaldo doing that. I actually wondered what kind of a manager Ronaldo would be if at all he becomes one, really interesting in the context of this thread if you assume Messi becomes a manager too.
Anyway, coming to the point of this thread, my take on the GOAT was somewhat reinforced by Pique when he was interviewed by Ferdinand, I don't remember when exactly and what the program was. He said, "Messi is not human/super-human and Ronaldo is the best of humans". I think, in essence, he meant you cannot choose between the two. But I personally think of this quote as evidence that Ronaldo is "greater" and here's my opinion:
Messi was probably born with his talent, "freak of nature" as a lot of people here call him. Ofcourse, I don't take away anything from the hardwork he has put in to get to where he was even with his tremendous talent. Yes, he had his problems with growth but to be fair, his smaller body POSSIBLY gives him an advantage of being quicker and in more control with the ball, so I wouldn't count his growth problem as a hindrance. I think Messi can do absolutely out-of-this-world things with the ball, I'd even say he's a better football player. But for me, better doesn't equal greater.
Ronaldo was an absolute nobody to begin with, coming out of obscurity as a teenager with great potential who could have very easily gone out of control and not lived upto his potential like so many others before him. Just how far Ronaldo has come is a testimony, I think, to his greatness, not just as a footballer, but also as a sportsperson.
To compare them directly is very tough because it very easily can keep going around in circles. If Ronaldo had played today and Portugal had won, the cycle of comparisons would have definitely broken because there is absolutely nothing Messi can use to counter winning the continental championship. Having said that, I personally think some of the things that makes Ronaldo "greater" are: (1) played in two very different leagues and won everything, and playing against Messi and his world class team mates in one of them, (2) consistently performed really well for his country in a tougher continental tournament with team mates not as good as those of Messi's, (3) Messi was brought up, and has only played at Barcelona and a long part of his career coincided with the peak of careers of some of his team mates, who were nothing short of world class themselves. Yes, Messi can very well easily win all trophies in the Premier League, but he hasn't. Ronaldo always said he wanted to play for Madrid, but still had to get outside his comfort zone twice, and achieved all he said he would (4) Leadership - never seen Messi "lead" his teams. Sure, there are captains who lead by example but when you're Messi, you should know no body else can follow your example.
If Ronaldo would have played this final and Portugal had won, it would have sealed the argument that as of July 2016, Ronaldo is the greatest ever. But that didn't happen so maybe thr argument is somewhat still open, especially considering even Messi got his team to the final. Because Ronaldo didn't play and Messi did, whatever happened after both finals cannot be logically used to compare him and Messi. My vote goes for Ronaldo simply looking at how far and in what manner he has come from nowhere.
Anyway, coming to the point of this thread, my take on the GOAT was somewhat reinforced by Pique when he was interviewed by Ferdinand, I don't remember when exactly and what the program was. He said, "Messi is not human/super-human and Ronaldo is the best of humans". I think, in essence, he meant you cannot choose between the two. But I personally think of this quote as evidence that Ronaldo is "greater" and here's my opinion:
Messi was probably born with his talent, "freak of nature" as a lot of people here call him. Ofcourse, I don't take away anything from the hardwork he has put in to get to where he was even with his tremendous talent. Yes, he had his problems with growth but to be fair, his smaller body POSSIBLY gives him an advantage of being quicker and in more control with the ball, so I wouldn't count his growth problem as a hindrance. I think Messi can do absolutely out-of-this-world things with the ball, I'd even say he's a better football player. But for me, better doesn't equal greater.
Ronaldo was an absolute nobody to begin with, coming out of obscurity as a teenager with great potential who could have very easily gone out of control and not lived upto his potential like so many others before him. Just how far Ronaldo has come is a testimony, I think, to his greatness, not just as a footballer, but also as a sportsperson.
To compare them directly is very tough because it very easily can keep going around in circles. If Ronaldo had played today and Portugal had won, the cycle of comparisons would have definitely broken because there is absolutely nothing Messi can use to counter winning the continental championship. Having said that, I personally think some of the things that makes Ronaldo "greater" are: (1) played in two very different leagues and won everything, and playing against Messi and his world class team mates in one of them, (2) consistently performed really well for his country in a tougher continental tournament with team mates not as good as those of Messi's, (3) Messi was brought up, and has only played at Barcelona and a long part of his career coincided with the peak of careers of some of his team mates, who were nothing short of world class themselves. Yes, Messi can very well easily win all trophies in the Premier League, but he hasn't. Ronaldo always said he wanted to play for Madrid, but still had to get outside his comfort zone twice, and achieved all he said he would (4) Leadership - never seen Messi "lead" his teams. Sure, there are captains who lead by example but when you're Messi, you should know no body else can follow your example.
If Ronaldo would have played this final and Portugal had won, it would have sealed the argument that as of July 2016, Ronaldo is the greatest ever. But that didn't happen so maybe thr argument is somewhat still open, especially considering even Messi got his team to the final. Because Ronaldo didn't play and Messi did, whatever happened after both finals cannot be logically used to compare him and Messi. My vote goes for Ronaldo simply looking at how far and in what manner he has come from nowhere.
I don't understand why some are saying that Ronaldo didn't play in the final.
He started the match as Portugal captain.
Was seriously injured and returned to the pitch twice.
Came back at 90 minutes after receiving treatment to offer support and encourage his teamates.
Was in the technical area directing his team
Celebrated with all his team and country.
Circumstances outside of Ronaldo's control robbed him of playing a proper game but he kept coming back, showing leadership and the desire to win. That's what leadership is. It's not always about scoring the winning goal. It's about inspiring others around you. I understand Ronaldo's got a bizarre personality that rubs many people the wrong way but some of you are acting like he's pulled a John Terry.
He started the match as Portugal captain.
Was seriously injured and returned to the pitch twice.
Came back at 90 minutes after receiving treatment to offer support and encourage his teamates.
Was in the technical area directing his team
Celebrated with all his team and country.
Circumstances outside of Ronaldo's control robbed him of playing a proper game but he kept coming back, showing leadership and the desire to win. That's what leadership is. It's not always about scoring the winning goal. It's about inspiring others around you. I understand Ronaldo's got a bizarre personality that rubs many people the wrong way but some of you are acting like he's pulled a John Terry.
Neither Messi nor Ronaldo are GOAT, but this definitely helps Ronaldo's case over Messi. All trophies play a role in determining a player's worth and legacy, and something as rare as a Euro win is equivalent to several Champion Leagues.
It is the first time I can remember a player getting massive credit for an outcome of a match when that player was subbed off before making any impact. And he did sort of pull a John Terry. In 2012 in the second leg against Napoli. Terry was subbed off late and then after getting subbed off he stood on the touchline and barked orders and I remember people taking it as a joke.
This game showed that leadership matters.
Regardless of his form, Portugal does not win this tournament without Ronaldo leading from inside and outside of the field.
If Messi showed that type of leadership I believe Argentina would have won at least one of their recent finals. Rather than moping in frustration as he did in 2014 and 2015 and even after his penalty miss this year.
Regardless of his form, Portugal does not win this tournament without Ronaldo leading from inside and outside of the field.
If Messi showed that type of leadership I believe Argentina would have won at least one of their recent finals. Rather than moping in frustration as he did in 2014 and 2015 and even after his penalty miss this year.
Perhaps I am giving him too much credit for his participation in the final but others arguing the opposite are discounting him unfairly. There's a middle ground and he deserves some credit in helping get Portugal to the final.
This thread embodies fanboyism too much. Personally, I do think that Messi is much of a complete player yet he hasn't prove himself outside of Spain. His spells with Argentina isn't that impressive if you ask me. He is surrounded by better players than Ronaldo currently is with Portugal.
I do think that Ronaldo winning this Euro trophy gives him the edge over Messi. Yet, Ronaldo isn't really a good dribbler like Messi is. Ronaldo seemed to leave his technical aspects of the game and focuses on physical abilities instead.
One might argue that Messi is the better FK taker but lets not forget Ronaldo's FK in the PL years ago. GKs found it hard to even guess where and how the ball will travel.
I do think that Ronaldo winning this Euro trophy gives him the edge over Messi. Yet, Ronaldo isn't really a good dribbler like Messi is. Ronaldo seemed to leave his technical aspects of the game and focuses on physical abilities instead.
One might argue that Messi is the better FK taker but lets not forget Ronaldo's FK in the PL years ago. GKs found it hard to even guess where and how the ball will travel.
But, there is also middle ground to saying he played in the final and saying he is the best ever and lauding his leadership in a match he barely played in. And I am really not going to give this Portugal side much credit considering how mediocre they have been during this whole tournament. But, I am sort of a prick like that. I crap on Chelsea's CL win and Liverpool's last win every chance I get.
I think you're doing a massive disservice to his teammates if you think Portugal would have lost the final without him cheering them on from the side. It's an utterly ludicrous claim. They wouldn't have won the tournament without his 2 goals v Hungary in the groups. They'd have been going home instead.
Argentina's final defeats aren't anything to do with Messi's leadership. Higuain has missed 3 legit sitters in each of them whereas tonight Eder (a pretty crap player) banged in an absolute beast of a strike.
I don't think Messi is a great leader, fwiw, but I think it's disingenuous to imply that if he was a better leader they'd have won the finals. Likewise to suggest that Ronaldo's cheerleading at the sides was the crucial factor in Portugal beating France. It really wasn't.
Brilliant
No it wouldn't have because there's other all time greats like Pele and Maradona who played in and won World Cup finals and were instrumental.
I disagree with the rest of your post but I enjoyed reading your take on it. Good post overall.
Come on....
An average Argentina including Sergio Aguero, Gonzalo Higuain, Lavezzi, Mascherano, Garay, Di Maria, Zabaleta.
Who has Ronaldo got? A washed up Quaresma? a 70s pornstar in defensive midfield? Pepe and Nani are the best players beside him and we all know how frustrating nani is.
For me, Messi has played with better players than Ronaldo's teammates all his career.
Playing deeper = better?Ronaldo gravitates as an inverted forward always as he's got older, he's mostly the one linking at at the edge of the box whilst Messi is the one to come to the centre circle to start moves happening.
Here's a comparison of a heat-map in El Classico 12 months ago
These are triggered when they touch the ball by the way, Ronaldo is less involved.
Here's another example, El Classico this year where Madrid actually won.
You can see where Messi touches the ball, he's a lot more central but Ronaldo inverted forward touches the ball in the box more and in much less dangerous areas creating less for his team. Messi is hugely influential.
You can't blame Ronaldo he's old now in footballing terms, Messi is a better passer and dribbler so he can come a little deeper, Ronaldos numbers are great but he's doing less for the team over the 90 minutes he's there to get the headlines and that's a reason why he hasn't won as much for Real because he doesn't influence as much.
Feel free to check out the Squawka heat maps though which don't lie, it's all provided through OPTA.
I think Ronaldo is great he's just not on the same level.
The fact is Ronaldo has scored more and won the bigger trophies.