Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

Brexit_Brigade

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Do I even need to point out that they play completely different positions?
They both play in the three behind the striker and are more or less solely tasked with scoring and creating. Fernandes is no more a midfielder in this team than Rashford is.

You can just acknowledge you didn't know the numbers were virtually identical.

And honestly I'm not sure if goals from open play is the wisest card to use when defending Rashford either.

Goals from open play in the league

2019/20
Rashford - 11
Martial - 17
Greenwood - 10


And that's the season everyone points to as an example as to why we're all idiots for not rating him.
Oh look, he's actually engaging now! Much better.

Yes, the penalties massively inflated Rashford's goals last season and Martial was better than him overall. And he also wasn't up there with the top players in the league last season.

Which, you know, is why I keep banging on about improvement. He was better last season than he had been in 2018/19 (very similar stats but he played up front more often in 18/19), and he was better this season than he was last season - more importantly, he was in contention with the most productive players within his own team and the league as a whole.

And that's why I think that if he were put up for sale right now, there's at least a slight chance Roma or Union Berlin would say "you know what? Maybe this guy would be useful for us" - you can keep doing your "everyone says you're an idiot for not rating Rashford" routine, but anyone who's seen your posts can clearly see that no one's calling you an idiot for not rating Rashford.

We're calling you an idiot for making outrageous statements that go far beyond "he's good but we can do better" (a much less laughable view and a very common one on this forum. No problem with that).

You were the one that on the subject of goals from open play in one season decided to make it about 'goal contributions'
... ah, there we go again with the nonsense. Nice job making up your own assist numbers too, knew it was too much to expect from you to actually try and have a discussion in good faith.
 
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united_99

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That's true. But if he's saying he's been injured all season (and needs surgery), surely that should come before risking more injury playing for England?
No, that should have already come before risking more injury playing for United.
Whatever he needs (surgery, long rest, recovery time, etc.) has not happened in the entire season. Whether this is United’s or Rashford’s fault no one knows, but at the end the club could have said you will only play again for us after your surgery / rest / recovery. We only know for sure what has happened, which is that he kept playing for the club. The club now doesn’t have a leg to stand on. He played for the club so he is totally entitled to play then for his country as well.
 

Carl

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Let's say we could sell Rashford for the same amount we could buy Grealish, you would not do it?
No, I really wouldn't. Grealish is undoubtedly the better player, but Rashford has every chance of being even better.
 

Maluco

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He needed an authoritative coach who could guide him and develop him as a footballer and he didn’t get that. He still makes bad decisions constantly and is as erratic as ever.

If he had had a better coach who had improved him, the sky was the limit with his pace and his ability.
 

Neymar

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The people using stats and only stats to back Rashford are just like the ones who claim Ronaldo is still a top player. Ronaldo hasn't been a top 5 player in the world since 2017 but you would think he's the second coming based on the numbers he puts up.

Same with Rashford. He's wasteful and contributes nothing when he's not on hia game which is literally most of the time. Not sure why anybody is trying to deny this since we've all seen it.
 

RedMilo

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I have to say I really don't like him as a player. I think he epitomises this generation of player who relies on individual moments in games rather than being focused on the team. He often tries long distance dipping shots and rarely produces end product, his easy miss in the EL final speaks volumes of the basics he is lacking. He also has a tendency to run into players when dribbling, he has pace but wouldn't say he is a good dribbler. He doesn't make unselfish runs to create space for others, which is fundamental to how Utd have always played, i.e. running into channels, taking defenders away etc... I would take Grealish every day of the week. Fair play to him on his child poverty awareness though.
 

amsoUG

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To warn any new posters, this thread got me banned for two days because I claimed to believe that his injury was a scam. So please refrain from opinions that might seem negatively polarizing.

I hope to be proven wrong after the Euros when Rashford goes for his scheduled surgery as many have claimed here and in the news. If the surgery happens, without being caused by another injury in the Euros, I will ask the moderators to ban me for 3 months, or without bothering them, I will keep away for 3 months.

However, we are at a point of being forced to think that players who spend 90 mins trying to fool match officials to get decisions their way are now some saints incapable of engaging in manipulation to shape the narrative about their performances.

I apologize to anyone I offended here by my assertions. I hope we dont make this place an echo chamber for sugar coated woke football opinions.
 

Foxbatt

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Good post and I completely agree.

I think it's excellent to see Rashford's off the field work making a positive difference and I don't personally believe it's had a detrimental affect on his game. But as far as Rashford the footballer is concerned, I do believe he's a good player but I also believe he can be upgraded on. He doesn't have the potential of a Ronaldo or Giggs, who were players who could cause untold damage against a high line or deeper defensive block without assisting or scoring, due to their superior ability in the build up phase compared to Rashford. But that doesn't mean he's a bad player but rather someone who I believe can be upgraded upon which can only benefit the club and us the fans.

For me the game is about the collective and how many chances we create and goals we score over the course of the League season as a team. So if we have a player in the team who enhances the build up phase, which results in us playing a more fluid game both against a higher and deeper defensive line, and also contributes in the defensive phase of the game. We would score more goals as a team over the course of the season imo, whilst playing a more controlled game both offensively and defensively.
This is where I have a different opinion. I think he has the talent but is not used properly. He has the ability to beat players, to shoot from long range, cross, pass and pace too. It is the application that is the problem for me. I do not think we need to upgrade him. I feel he needs to be coached to use his talents the right way. If his decision making gets better in when to pass, cross, shoot or dribble for sure he can become a top class player.
 

Swiss_Red89

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Let's say we could sell Rashford for the same amount we could buy Grealish, you would not do it?
You really would sell Rashford so that we can buy Grealish?
Grealish is a very good player and I would like to have him in our squad, but certainly not if we had to sell Rashford. That would be such a stupid move.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Ooo, now we've got someone literally saying Ronaldo is no longer a top player despite still scoring goals for fun, because he doesn't pass their eye test!

I'm not sure that's someone anyone anywhere in this Rashford debate wants to be associated with. Take your Top 5 garbage back to Reddit where it belongs.
 

stw2022

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People criticising others for forming their opinions on individual players based on watching them play feels strange
 

Stormpetrel

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To warn any new posters, this thread got me banned for two days because I claimed to believe that his injury was a scam. So please refrain from opinions that might seem negatively polarizing.
Or maybe don't call someone's injury a scam when they have surgery planned
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Also really enjoying this other one saying RedCafe is falling prey to the #woke SJW Boogeyman because he got banned for saying an injury is a SCAM.

Preach, lad! They're all blind, only you can convince them to take the red pill
 

stw2022

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Also really enjoying this other one saying RedCafe is falling prey to the #woke SJW Boogeyman because he got banned for saying an injury is a SCAM.

Preach, lad! They're all blind, only you can convince them to take the red pill
Do you think you’re narrating?
 

Brexit_Brigade

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I love how that's the one post of mine you directly address.

Feel free to respond to this one now that you're here. Specifically, whether you still stand by the quotes.

1. Post opinions such as:





2. Get rightly rinsed for posting nonsensical opinions

3. When given multiple rebuttals to nonsensical opinions, for example:



fall back on inane "arguments" such as:





4. Get rinsed all around the forum yet again

5. Claim the people rinsing you are simply triggered because you boldly dared to do what no poster within the Cult of Marcus Rashford has done and questioned the messiah, when it's actually just them calling you out for talking baseless nonsense about a good player

6. Be the victim
 

stw2022

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I love how that's the one post of mine you directly address.

Feel free to respond to this one now that you're here. Specifically, whether you still stand by the quotes.
I’ve said I’m not the victim of anything. Beyond that I really don’t know what anything you said relates to nor do I feel obliged to reply to your every post directly
 

Ceteris

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Does anyone know where to find stats about how many players he took on and beat this past season? I say this because the amount of time he received the ball out wide turns back inside and pass it back is astonishing for a winger.

Plus I think he developed an attitude problem as well, his outburst at his captain got swept under, if Pogba had said that he'd be murdered, and I think at the beginning Cavani tried to advice him on the pitch as he does with greenwood but the look he gave back said a lot.

I always watch his movement on the pitch, he choses to go where the ball is and where we are getting some joy, leaves AWB exposed time and time again

Ultimately he doesn't pick himself and the man that does allow him to get away with bad performances
 

amsoUG

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Or maybe don't call someone's injury a scam when they have surgery planned
DailyMail says they believe he has one scheduled on his foot after the Euros - a lot of the article is gossip and not putting anyone on record.

Anyone who has been following this story knows that it was also reported that a surgery was planned on his shoulder since 2019 to be done after the Euros in 2020.
Forgive some of us for being skeptical due to the fact that both the date for the surgery and
the actual injury to be treated have kept changing.

The skepticism was informed by such reports and we hope Utd can come out and authoritatively confirm the surgery.

Btw, my main issue about the scam had nothing to do with whether the injuries are real or not but rather their use to manipulate the narrative about the player’s performance - good or bad.
 
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roonster09

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Does anyone know where to find stats about how many players he took on and beat this past season? I say this because the amount of time he received the ball out wide turns back inside and pass it back is astonishing for a winger.
2nd in the league for dribbles completed and 2nd in the league in beating numbers of players. Only Adama is ahead of him in both.
 

owlo

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Nah, but the 'Cult of Ole' has become far more important than Rashford as a player.
 

Desert Eagle

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roonster09

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Second in the league for total dribbles, 5th in the league for succesful dribbles according to this : https://www.kickest.it/en/premier-league/stats/players/successful-dribbles

His dribbles success rate is about 50% which is also lower than most of the top ten.
Second in dribbles completed as per fbref, which sources data from statsbomb.

Traore is first, Rashford and Anguissa are second, with same number of dribbles.

His dribble success rate is 53.7%, which isn't far from the success rate of
Mane, Sterling, Richarlison, Saka, Greenwood, Lucas, Maddison, Jota, Ziyech,

Better than Zaha, Pulisic, Salah, Pulisic, Mahrez, Pepe, Werner, Barnes, Havertz, Ferran Torres,

That should give a fair idea on where Rashford ranks. Attacking player for top teams who obviously will have less space will have close to 50-60% in dribble success rate.

Werner has 38%, as per you the much more technically brilliant Pulisic has 48%, Salah 50%, Mahrez 48%, Havertz 48%, Harvey Barnez 40%

Also some of the top dribblers in top 5 leagues
Neymar - 58%
Sancho - 55%
Mbappe - 46%

Ofcourse there are players with 60%+ too but 53.7% isn't bad at all for attacking player playing for big club.
 

Desert Eagle

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Second in dribbles completed as per fbref, which sources data from statsbomb.

Traore is first, Rashford and Anguissa are second, with same number of dribbles.

His dribble success rate is 53.7%, which isn't far from the success rate of
Mane, Sterling, Richarlison, Saka, Greenwood, Lucas, Maddison, Jota, Ziyech,

Better than Zaha, Pulisic, Salah, Pulisic, Mahrez, Pepe, Werner, Barnes, Havertz, Ferran Torres,

That should give a fair idea on where Rashford ranks. Attacking player for top teams who obviously will have less space will have close to 50-60% in dribble success rate.

Werner has 38%, as per you the much more technically brilliant Pulisic has 48%, Salah 50%, Mahrez 48%, Havertz 48%, Harvey Barnez 40%

Also some of the top dribblers in top 5 leagues
Neymar - 58%
Sancho - 55%
Mbappe - 46%

Ofcourse there are players with 60%+ too but 53.7% isn't bad at all for attacking player playing for big club.
Thanks for the stats. What are his shooting and passing stats in comparison if you don't mind
 

stw2022

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Wow with all these stats Rashford must be a truly world class player. There we were thinking his injuries were acting as a reason behind his dips in performances. But if he’s this good then maybe they’re helping and he should postpone surgery for as long as possible?

I’ve now completely changed my mind and cannot wait until the day after the start of the new season so I can buy a paper and read the stats that will tell me how well he played the day before.
 

roonster09

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Thanks for the stats. What are his shooting and passing stats in comparison if you don't mind
That's too much work, just few for attacking players at big clubs
Rashford -
Havertz - 85
Pulisic - 83
Ziyech - 79
Werner - 79
Grealish - 83
Greenwood - 85
Martial - 85
Rashford - 82
Bruno - 78
Mahrez - 88
Sterling - 86
Jesus - 85
KdB - 82
Salah - 84
Mane - 79
Maddison - 84
Barnes - 75
Kane - 70
Son - 83

I think i covered most of the players from top teams.
 

captain666

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If England progress in the Euro's Rashford could be with the squad until 12th July.If he does indeed need surgery he should take both foot and shoulder ops immediately after the tournament.He is going to miss all of our pre season and the start of the new season.Whilst we have cover,our summer signings may mean he has to fight to regain his place.
 

roonster09

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Wow with all these stats Rashford must be a truly world class player. There we were thinking his injuries were acting as a reason behind his dips in performances. But if he’s this good then maybe they’re helping and he should postpone surgery for as long as possible?

I’ve now completely changed my mind and cannot wait until the day after the start of the new season so I can buy a paper and read the stats that will tell me how well he played the day before.
Or you can spout more bs about your "Eye Test" and intentionally leave out stats for Rashford only in the list of players, then run away, wait for next day and post the same nonsense again.
 

stw2022

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If England progress in the Euro's Rashford could be with the squad until 12th July.If he does indeed need surgery he should take both foot and shoulder ops immediately after the tournament.He is going to miss all of our pre season and the start of the new season.Whilst we have cover,our summer signings may mean he has to fight to regain his place.
But we can see from the stats he’s one of the top players in the world. Why have him miss any time? The stats prove there’s no impact on his performance levels, quite the opposite as they prove he’s just had the best season of his life. Operating at all when he’s in this form seems silly.

Given that no other method of judging how a player is doing exists other than reading the stats when they are released after a game I cannot see any possible reason why anyone would want him to have surgery and risk the lad at a time he’s in form of his life
 

roonster09

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But we can see from the stats he’s one of the top players in the world. Why have him miss any time? The stats prove there’s no impact on his performance levels, quite the opposite as they prove he’s just had the best season of his life. Operating at all when he’s in this form seems silly.

Given that no other method of judging how a player is doing exists other than reading the stats when they are released after a game I cannot see any possible reason why anyone would want him to have surgery and risk the lad at a time he’s in form of his life
Expert at arguing imaginary points
 

stw2022

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Expert at arguing imaginary points
Do the stats not show that over the last two years his ‘goal creation’ is as good as anyone’s?

Do they not show he’s scored the joint highest number of goals from open play this season as he’s ever scored in his career?

Are the stats not evidencing he’s posting numbers on dribbling that put him amongst the very best in Europe?

To hell with imaginary arguments I want to know which clueless idiot thinks this is a form we can risk by having him undergo surgery to fix an injury that if anything seems to be making him more awesome

It’s probably those “eye test” people. God they have no idea, do they?
 

Desert Eagle

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That's too much work, just few for attacking players at big clubs
Rashford -
Havertz - 85
Pulisic - 83
Ziyech - 79
Werner - 79
Grealish - 83
Greenwood - 85
Martial - 85
Rashford - 82
Bruno - 78
Mahrez - 88
Sterling - 86
Jesus - 85
KdB - 82
Salah - 84
Mane - 79
Maddison - 84
Barnes - 75
Kane - 70
Son - 83

I think i covered most of the players from top teams.
Next time maybe mention what these numbers are supposed to reference. Anyways appreciate it. I'll find some advanced passing n shooting stats and post them later.
 

roonster09

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Do the stats not show that over the last two years his ‘goal creation’ is as good as anyone’s?

Do they not show he’s scored the joint highest number of goals from open play this season as he’s ever scored in his career?

Are the stats not evidencing he’s posting numbers on dribbling that put him amongst the very best in Europe?

To hell with imaginary arguments I want to know which clueless idiot thinks this is a form we can risk by having him undergo surgery to fix an injury that if anything seems to be making him more awesome
Ofcourse you are arguing imaginary points and everyone knows that it's cute though, running away after posting incorrect stats, lie and then start the day fresh with more nonsense.
 

roonster09

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Next time maybe mention what these numbers are supposed to reference. Anyways appreciate it. I'll find some advanced passing n shooting stats and post them later.
Those are pass completion stats. Imo they are not of much use but you asked for it.