Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

Garethw

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So shit that he scored 20 goals as a winger and had double digit assists.
 

Nou_Camp99

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So shit that he scored 20 goals as a winger and had double digit assists.
It's so strange how so many people are trying to put the blame all on Rashford. We had far worse performers this season than him.

The goalkeepers have been no better than decent.

The defenders have all been average at best except Shaw who has been excellent.

Fred, Mctomminay, Pogba have been okay at times, good at times and shocking other times. None of them are consistent players.

Martial has been shocking. James average. Greenwood was poor for 5 months before coming to life.

But let's all blame Rashford. Absolute jokers.
 

Marwood

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It's so strange how so many people are trying to put the blame all on Rashford. We had far worse performers this season than him.

The goalkeepers have been no better than decent.

The defenders have all been average at best except Shaw who has been excellent.

Fred, Mctomminay, Pogba have been okay at times, good at times and shocking other times. None of them are consistent players.

Martial has been shocking. James average. Greenwood was poor for 5 months before coming to life.

But let's all blame Rashford. Absolute jokers.
Can you give us a few quotes from the many people putting all the blame on Rashford?
 

Bebestation

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Can you give us a few quotes from the many people putting all the blame on Rashford?
Well for start I don’t think he has anything resembling’a cult’ because in reality he is a useful young player for Manchester United.
 

JB7

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So shit that he scored 20 goals as a winger and had double digit assists.
It is mental. The guy frustrates the hell out of me at times but if he played for any other club the Caf would be begging we drop £100m to sign him.
 

Marwood

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Well for start I don’t think he has anything resembling’a cult’ because in reality he is a useful young player for Manchester United.
Yeah agree but I've not seen anyone, never mind many, putting all the blame on him.

And also, blame for what?
 

Marwood

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Read a matchday thread.
Quote them then?

Posters putting all the blame on Rashford.

We're talking all the blame for presumably finishing empty handed this season.

It'd be way quicker to acknowledge that isn't the case. Nobody is holding Rashford solely responsible for whatever failings the team has had this season.
 

JB7

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Quote them then?

Posters putting all the blame on Rashford.

We're talking all the blame for presumably finishing empty handed this season.

It'd be way quicker to acknowledge that isn't the case. Nobody is holding Rashford solely responsible for whatever failings the team has had this season.
You have taken an off the cuff remark far too literally.
 

alexthelion

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Then it can’t be an excuse for his performances.
Exactly.

If he claims he's playing lower than he can because of injury, he should either shut up if he wants to play for England or have the surgery now, ready to go for next season.
 

alexthelion

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I have to say I really don't like him as a player. I think he epitomises this generation of player who relies on individual moments in games rather than being focused on the team. He often tries long distance dipping shots and rarely produces end product, his easy miss in the EL final speaks volumes of the basics he is lacking. He also has a tendency to run into players when dribbling, he has pace but wouldn't say he is a good dribbler. He doesn't make unselfish runs to create space for others, which is fundamental to how Utd have always played, i.e. running into channels, taking defenders away etc... I would take Grealish every day of the week. Fair play to him on his child poverty awareness though.
Popcorn and cold beer at the ready.


I agree with you fully @RedMilo.
 

Marwood

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You have taken an off the cuff remark far too literally.
Not sure it is off the cuff. You've just seen a couple of other posters agree afterall. I suppose only the poster who said it could confirm.

I think it's more this trend of deliberately misinterpreting criticism, making it more than it is. Not sure why it happens but it does. Is it to delegitimise warranted criticism? To build up this sort of one side vs another type battle that goes on in player threads?
 

alexthelion

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'eye test' :lol:

Hilarious people come up with 'eye test' nonsense.

Eye test is important and that's for the football scouts, not for agenda driven posters.
Eye test can be better than just spouting stats without any context.

This season he's been far from his best, or are you arguing that because you've posted some stats he's now the best thing since sliced bread?

Personaly, I tend to believe my eyes rather than some random stats taken without context.
 
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JB7

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Not sure it is off the cuff. You've just seen a couple of other posters agree afterall. I suppose only the poster who said it could confirm.

I think it's more this trend of deliberately misinterpreting criticism, making it more than it is. Not sure why it happens but it does. Is it to delegitimise warranted criticism? To build up this sort of one side vs another type battle that goes on in player threads?
No one has agreed at all. If that poster did genuinely mean they think Rashford gets the blame for literally everything then I apologise, however I highly doubt that.

He has been terribly out of form for a while, probably the last couple of months of the season all told and it was crazy that Ole seemed to want to play him through it. It seemed obvious to everyone he needed a spell out of the side and for some reason Ole continued with him - even moving him over the to the right for a period of time which coincided with the worst of his form.

However, the criticism he gets is way over the top at times. He's still young, he's had back to back 20+ goal seasons from the left wing - add his assists in and you're looking at 35 or so direct goal contributions in back to back seasons (and that includes him missing 2 months of last season and quite clearly playing injured for at least 2 months of this season).

I guarantee if he was putting those numbers in at another club the Caf would be going mad to get him in.
 

big rons sovereign

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Quote them then?

Posters putting all the blame on Rashford.

We're talking all the blame for presumably finishing empty handed this season.

It'd be way quicker to acknowledge that isn't the case. Nobody is holding Rashford solely responsible for whatever failings the team has had this season.
You're getting very upset over the most innocuous of things.
 

Marwood

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No one has agreed at all. If that poster did genuinely mean they think Rashford gets the blame for literally everything then I apologise, however I highly doubt that.

He has been terribly out of form for a while, probably the last couple of months of the season all told and it was crazy that Ole seemed to want to play him through it. It seemed obvious to everyone he needed a spell out of the side and for some reason Ole continued with him - even moving him over the to the right for a period of time which coincided with the worst of his form.

However, the criticism he gets is way over the top at times. He's still young, he's had back to back 20+ goal seasons from the left wing - add his assists in and you're looking at 35 or so direct goal contributions in back to back seasons (and that includes him missing 2 months of last season and quite clearly playing injured for at least 2 months of this season).

I guarantee if he was putting those numbers in at another club the Caf would be going mad to get him in.
The very next poster told me to "read a matchday thread" when I asked for evidence of Rashford getting all the blame. You wouldn't say that's agreeing?

The guy who initially said it repeated it twice in his post and called people jokers for doing so. It doesn't feel off the cuff.

I mean almost every player thread is full of criticism. Why some posters feel it's their guy that's being singled out is beyond me. Just look at the other player threads. Same thing is happening in Pogba thread.

I think Shaw is the only one to get universal praise. Outside of him it's pretty brutal all round.
 

Marwood

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You're getting very upset over the most innocuous of things.
Actually what I'm asking is that posters, like yourself, don't get so upset. To the point where you believe one player is being blamed.

Apart from Shaw pretty much every player this season has been slated.

You can disagree with the criticism but lets not crack on its unique to Rashford.
 

JB7

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The very next poster told me to "read a matchday thread" when I asked for evidence of Rashford getting all the blame. You wouldn't say that's agreeing?

The guy who initially said it repeated it twice in his post and called people jokers for doing so. It doesn't feel off the cuff.

I mean almost every player thread is full of criticism. Why some posters feel it's their guy that's being singled out is beyond me. Just look at the other player threads. Same thing is happening in Pogba thread.

I think Shaw is the only one to get universal praise. Outside of him it's pretty brutal all round.
Not really no, that’s someone saying Rashford is just getting a lot of criticism - nobody is saying he is solely to blame, you are taking one word far too literally.

I couldn’t really discuss the match day thread to be honest, find it insane that people would be posting on an Internet forum while watching their team play.
 

roonster09

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Eye test can be better than just spouting stats without any context.

This season he's been far from his best, or are you arguing that because you've posted some stats he's now the best thing since sliced bread?

Personaly, I tend to believe my eyes rather than some random stats taken without context.
I haven't seen anyone saying he had very good season. Why I posted stats? You have to check the argument to see why.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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It's always the false dichotomy with the eye test bunch, isn't it?

"This season he's been far from his best, or are you arguing that because you've posted some stats he's now the best thing since sliced bread?"

Er no buddy, he's obviously not, and the only person I remember saying so was that one guy in the last thread saying he was United's best academy player since Best (I think that's what he said!)

But he's also not crap, and if you're attempting to show that he is (example, saying top half teams wouldn't want him or he "barely looks competent on the ball"), backing it up with something tangible is the way to go about it. And you can't do that because he's had a good season.
 

big rons sovereign

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Actually what I'm asking is that posters, like yourself, don't get so upset. To the point where you believe one player is being blamed.

Apart from Shaw pretty much every player this season has been slated.

You can disagree with the criticism but lets not crack on its unique to Rashford.
I've not said anything about rashford or how he's been slated. I just suggested reading a matchday thread if you want to see him getting hammered.
Bloody hell man. Storm in a teacup or what.
 

big rons sovereign

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Not really no, that’s someone saying Rashford is just getting a lot of criticism - nobody is saying he is solely to blame, you are taking one word far too literally.

I couldn’t really discuss the match day thread to be honest, find it insane that people would be posting on an Internet forum while watching their team play.
I use it to discuss the game as it happens, like I would if I was at the game. So I chat via text with my old man and eldest and use the thread on here for strangers.
My wife's not interested and the child is in bed.
So I've not really got a lot of options.
 

welshwingwizard

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No one has agreed at all. If that poster did genuinely mean they think Rashford gets the blame for literally everything then I apologise, however I highly doubt that.

He has been terribly out of form for a while, probably the last couple of months of the season all told and it was crazy that Ole seemed to want to play him through it. It seemed obvious to everyone he needed a spell out of the side and for some reason Ole continued with him - even moving him over the to the right for a period of time which coincided with the worst of his form.

However, the criticism he gets is way over the top at times. He's still young, he's had back to back 20+ goal seasons from the left wing - add his assists in and you're looking at 35 or so direct goal contributions in back to back seasons (and that includes him missing 2 months of last season and quite clearly playing injured for at least 2 months of this season).

I guarantee if he was putting those numbers in at another club the Caf would be going mad to get him in.
Completely agree and think getting Sancho will help massively as he can give Rashford a break. I don't see it as a threat to Rashford. You can't have a 60 game season without rest and rotation.

I don't agree with it but I think Old used him continually, even carrying the injury, because he didn't feel we had other options. Just like I expect Southgate to use him because football is a short term results business and his priority is to win immediately.

Hopefully it hasn't done it long term damage, either physically or by knocking his confidence.
 

He'sRaldo

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It's always the false dichotomy with the eye test bunch, isn't it?

"This season he's been far from his best, or are you arguing that because you've posted some stats he's now the best thing since sliced bread?"

Er no buddy, he's obviously not, and the only person I remember saying so was that one guy in the last thread saying he was United's best academy player since Best (I think that's what he said!)

But he's also not crap, and if you're attempting to show that he is (example, saying top half teams wouldn't want him or he "barely looks competent on the ball"), backing it up with something tangible is the way to go about it. And you can't do that because he's had a good season.
The thing that's hard to agree about is whether or not he holds the team back with his decision-making (selfishness?) despite his numbers.

To me it's not selfishness so much as poor decision-making, which has been encouraged by all his senior managers besides LVG. And it does hold him and the team back. Without that flaw he'd be phenomenal.
 
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welshwingwizard

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So, you're accepting that he's seklfish and not a team player?

Agreed, he is if he's putting England ahead of United.
That's unfair. He could have said mid season he wanted the operation then in order to ensure he was healthy for the Euros. However because he wants the best for United and we don't have options he played injured for half the season. He did us that favour and we should let acknowledge that by letting him play in the tournament without criticising him for getting fixed after.

We can't take the moral high ground here. The injury has been with him for a while and if we were responsible we would have got it sorted at the time.

I hate the stories you hear of players like john terry playing every game for seasons with pain injections. I can't believe the medical staff are allowed to get away with it frankly given the potential long term impact.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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The thing that's hard to agree about is whether or not he holds the team back with his decision-making (selfishness?), despite his numbers.

To me it's not selfishness so much as poor decision-making, which has been encouraged by all his senior managers besides LVG. And it does hold the team back sometimes.

I don't think anyone who's watched Rashford will disagree that he's selfish, makes bad decisions, and runs down blind alleys. And it's the sort of thing that stands out even more when he's off-form and not making up for the frustration* with decisive moments, exhibit A being pretty much the last two or three months of this season - after that Newcastle game which was his last genuinely good one. He's gotten better at it with age, as you'd expect - doesn't take as many idiotic potshots as he was doing for much of 2018/19, and doesn't run the ball out of play for goal kicks as often. His final ball is much better now too as seen by some of the genuinely good assists he got this season. Still lots of room for improvement not only there but also with his finishing, hold-up play, pretty much everything.

The problem is when you go from "productive but frustrating" or "decent but should be better" to some of the other stuff you hear about him here.

*That Lentwood chap will probably have an aneurysm if he sees this post :lol: but this is pretty similar to how Rooney was a lot of the time - he'd have games where the ball was just bouncing off his shins for 90 minutes but still end up getting the decisive goal or pass. At that point it's perfectly fine to point out the flaws in a player's game, but you have to be cognizant of the fact that his end product is good and that's what decides football matches.
 
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Marwood

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I've not said anything about rashford or how he's been slated. I just suggested reading a matchday thread if you want to see him getting hammered.
Bloody hell man. Storm in a teacup or what.
Agree it's a bit of a toss little circular conversation.

But reason is you haven't read my post properly. I asked where is Rashford getting all the blame. I even bolded "all". I never asked for examples of him just getting criticised did I?

I mean, I don't think anybody needs help finding player criticism on here. It's pretty common you know.

I'd say every individual at United whose name we know,gets slated. That's the same for players, coaches, executives and owners. Even Mike Phelan. It's what happens when a big club is failing.

What Rashford gets in terms of criticism is on par with others. I know those who idolise him will think nah, he gets it way more, he's the one whi's singled out. But the Pogba fans think Pogba does and the Bruno fans think he does etc etc.
 

Cloud7

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Just had to unfollow him on Twitter. I’m fed up of him retweeting pictures of people reading his book :lol:
 

Brexit_Brigade

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The 20-goal thing is definitely a little overblown, and I say that as someone who rates Rashford very highly.

He had 7 league goals at New Year's - 5 of those had come in the month of December and he was looking like he'd hit a hot streak and could at least match the 17 from last season (of which 6 or 7 were penalties, so this would have been way better). To end up with only 11 is a disappointment whichever way you look at it.

The goals he did get in other competitions were largely against good teams and 6 came in the CL, so it's not exactly something like Torres's "20-goal" season at Chelsea. But the real barometer is league goals.
 

9 Stone Elvis

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It is mental. The guy frustrates the hell out of me at times but if he played for any other club the Caf would be begging we drop £100m to sign him.
I doubt that. Any player we sign seems to be met with a faction of fans who seem to think we have paid too much or they aren't very good.

I really haven't seen too many serious posts saying Rashford is a bad player. I think people just want to see improvement. OK he scored 20 goals this season but he didn't have a prolific league campaign and as much as the "eye test" is derided in favour of statistics anyone who has watched him this season will know that his goals and assists figures could have been far far better with better final balls, more considered shooting and generally better judgement overall. If he was sitting on 20 LEAGUE goals plus the rest that would be a different matter.

I think the frustration comes from the fact that we can all see the ability he has and his flaws come down to the choices made on the pitch rather than not being actually good enough. The criticism comes from knowing he has the tools to be a great player. Its like what Merson said George Graham told him when he asked why he didn't give up on him when he was causing all the grief - "If you have a Morris minor and it breaks you *** it off, if you have a Rolls Royce you fix it", point being in this case the frustration levels with Rashford is because you can see the ability is there in spades you just want it channeled better as opposed to a player who is never going to be good enough.