Healthcare

[André Dominguez]

When you allow basic needs as healthcare to become a commercial asset, you are basically legalizing extortion, simply because it is impossible to survive without access to this kind of services.

The funny thing is: health industry makes billions of dollars in insurance sales / collections every years, but yet thousands of private hospital have to do fundraising despite charging thousands of dollars for a treatment that has a cost bellow 20$.

You guys are basically paying taxes to fund the military machine and the political parties machine (the yearly budget of a political party in the US is absurd), while that money could be used to actually improve the citizens life.
Just a fraction of the US Defense yearly budget would suffice to create public healthcare and public education, both with high quality.

This makes me sad a bit: I saw USA as a country with the potential to be a role country: a thriving economy, most of the people are very altruistic (the americans are the biggest donors in money / food / school material / etc) which shows the human qualities in the USA are there, the artistic movements are heavily supported(look at Opera: if it wasn't for american interest in arts, it would had downfall already) and my contact with american tourists is that they are the most curious ones, trying to actually know things (in comparison, most European tourists just want to know where are the better restaurants and wine bars).

The core of any business should be to add value not only to their shareholders, but also to the country. That's why people buy products: they deliver something they want or need.

But private health bring no value to the country whatsoever. In fact, it removes value from the country because the living costs are ridiculously high for a country with so many wealth and makes you wonder why are you paying taxes to start with.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

When you allow basic needs as healthcare to become a commercial asset, you are basically legalizing extortion, simply because it is impossible to survive without access to this kind of services.

The funny thing is: health industry makes billions of dollars in insurance sales / collections every years, but yet thousands of private hospital have to do fundraising despite charging thousands of dollars for a treatment that has a cost bellow 20$.

You guys are basically paying taxes to fund the military machine and the political parties machine (the yearly budget of a political party in the US is absurd), while that money could be used to actually improve the citizens life.
Just a fraction of the US Defense yearly budget would suffice to create public healthcare and public education, both with high quality.

This makes me sad a bit: I saw USA as a country with the potential to be a role country: a thriving economy, most of the people are very altruistic (the americans are the biggest donors in money / food / school material / etc) which shows the human qualities in the USA are there, the artistic movements are heavily supported(look at Opera: if it wasn't for american interest in arts, it would had downfall already) and my contact with american tourists is that they are the most curious ones, trying to actually know things (in comparison, most European tourists just want to know where are the better restaurants and wine bars).

The core of any business should be to add value not only to their shareholders, but also to the country. That's why people buy products: they deliver something they want or need.

But private health bring no value to the country whatsoever. In fact, it removes value from the country because the living costs are ridiculously high for a country with so many wealth and makes you wonder why are you paying taxes to start with.

Spot on comments.

To the bottom 75-80% if they are lucky (IE they live in a solid blue state like California) they have two basic healthcare options:

• Go into Medical where you must join an HMO that drastically limits your health care options and traps you with some crazy policies (like HMO policy being allowed to ignore ER doctor reommendations)
• Join an expensive PPO where you have greater health care options but run massive financial risk exposure

Ironically the laws enacted by the for-profit companies and pharma actually PREVENT any mixture of the two - which would at least allow patients to try to cobble together some form of personal safety net. They also in certain bizarre cases legally prevent someone in an HMO from literally paying out of pocket to see specialists because people in HMO have to stay "in-network". The insane policy regulations the for-profit companies extracted in Obamacare really shows why anything but single payer is unacceptable for any Democrat candidate.

 

[Red Dreams]

Spot on comments.

To the bottom 75-80% if they are lucky (IE they live in a solid blue state like California) they have two basic healthcare options:

• Go into Medical where you must join an HMO that drastically limits your health care options and traps you with some crazy policies (like HMO policy being allowed to ignore ER doctor reommendations)
• Join an expensive PPO where you have greater health care options but run massive financial risk exposure

Ironically the laws enacted by the for-profit companies and pharma actually PREVENT any mixture of the two - which would at least allow patients to try to cobble together some form of personal safety net. They also in certain bizarre cases legally prevent someone in an HMO from literally paying out of pocket to see specialists because people in HMO have to stay "in-network". The insane policy regulations the for-profit companies extracted in Obamacare really shows why anything but single payer is unacceptable for any Democrat candidate.

Is California now working on its own Medicare For All version of health Care?

https://californiaonecare.org/

 

[Red Dreams]

I belief we should not vote for any candidate that does not offer Medicare For All.

That means only Bernie, Warren or Tulsi.

I certainly have only those as my options.

 

[utdalltheway]

I belief we should not vote for any candidate that does not offer Medicare For All.

That means only Bernie, Warren or Tulsi.

I certainly have only those as my options.

I agree. And any other talk by other candidates on the issue that is not all about medicare for all is a smokescreen (looking at Biden, the corporate shill!).

The public would be best served to ignore any conversations related to how difficult it is, or how to do a blended healthcare plan, or how costly it'd be - all examples of distraction.

Has the MSM (CNN, etc) taken up the banner for national healthcare or are they still in spin mode?

 

[Red Dreams]

I agree. And any other talk by other candidates on the issue that is not all about medicare for all is a smokescreen (looking at Biden, the corporate shill!).

The public would be best served to ignore any conversations related to how difficult it is, or how to do a blended healthcare plan, or how costly it'd be - all examples of distraction.

Has the MSM (CNN, etc) taken up the banner for national healthcare or are they still in spin mode?

CNN and MSNBC are Fox Lite.

They are fully owned corporate channels.

Comcast which owns MSNBC was the launch for Biden's run.

Despicable.

 

[utdalltheway]

Despicable is correct.

 

[Adisa]

Caught up with the last two pages. Makes me sick. The greed has such a stranglehold of that country. I will never live there.

 

[Red Dreams]

Caught up with the last two pages. Makes me sick. The greed has such a stranglehold of that country. I will never live there.

If voters insist on Single Payer and say we will not vote otherwise, we can change things.
If they buy into "Trump is worse" mantra, then nothing will improve.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Is California now working on its own Medicare For All version of health Care?

https://californiaonecare.org/

I don't know enough about that group but two things about that webpage trouble me.
1. They don't have a page up for Who We Are so I don't know who is behind that group.

2. They don't address my major concern which is whether or not their system is a single payer PPO for everyone or if it forces people to use the current model HMO. The biggest flaw currently in Medi-Cal is that it uses an exclusive HMO system that is fecked up when it comes to incentives and how in-group vs. out-group is handled:

For instance right now if you have Medi-Cal or a private HMO through Obamacare and you have to go to an Emergency Room at a hospital out of your network then your HMO inserts itself into the treatment chain right after the Emergency Room doctor makes recommendations. So the ER doctor sends the patient to specialists to get examined but the patient has an HMO so the patient has to go back into the start of the standard HMO process, wait for an appointment with an HMO general practitioner and then wait for the HMO general physician following HMO "policies" to send the patient to a specialist.

This means there are two completely different treatment chains depending on whether you have a PPO or HMO.

With a PPO: ER Visit > ER Doctor Recommendations > Specialist Visits
With an HMO: ER Visit > ER Doctor Recommendations > Contact HMO Administration to set appointment with general physician > Visit HMO general physician > maybe or maybe not get allowed to see specialist that the original ER doctor recommended.

This is one of those nefarious rules the health companies must have inserted to Obamacare (after 8 hours of calling health companies, congressional representatives, doctors that is all I have been able to figure out so far because the fecking regulations are so opaque and obfuscating that its extremely difficult to even find out what level policies are made (county, state, federal).

So in short, its extremely important that whatever plans are being proposed need to be examined for stealth for-profit influence. Without a lot more details I have no idea if that website is a legit single payer type advocacy or if its a stealth for-profit HMO alliance trying to co-opt meaningful health care reform.

Without seeing details on how they plan to restructure HMOs I can't support them atm

 

[Red Dreams]

That's too bad @oneniltothearsenal

I honestly believe we need to risk it.
If a candidate does not support Single payer/Medicare For All, we should not vote for that person.

The DNC will never change otherwise. I saw Klobachar's contribution chart.
Its a joke. She is taking PAC money.
I am donating to Bernie. We all have to do our part.

 

[langster]

Any country that doesn’t treat healthcare as a public necessity, on par with education, transport and emergency service, doesn’t deserve to call itself a civilised nation. No ifs or buts.

Exactly this. 100%

The only reason it's even in dispute in the USA is due to ignorance, brainwashing and pure and utter fecking greed and selfishness.

 

[utdalltheway]

Watching Real Time with Bill Maher and they were discussing Dem candidates healthcare plans: there’s a former CIA analyst in the panel and he’s saying UHC is too expensive and Sweden’s middle class taxes are 50-60% to pay for their system.
Cmon caf Swedes, chime in.
Do you also get free university, plenty of maternity and other leave for your high taxes (which can’t be 50-60%)?

 

[Eboue]

If its a CIA guy talking you can just go ahead and ignore anything he says.

 

[balaks]

Exactly this. 100%

The only reason it's even in dispute in the USA is due to ignorance, brainwashing and pure and utter fecking greed and selfishness.

It's a country that doesn't care about society or other people. It's all about the individual.

 

[Penna]

I have never been able to get my head around it. A $5 tube of Zovirax goes for nearly $1000 in the US.

This site is illuminating regarding how much Americans pay for insulin in comparison with other countries. It's shocking, really.
https://www.t1international.com/insulin-and-supply-survey/

Spoiler

 

[Eboue]

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[shamans]

Watching Real Time with Bill Maher and they were discussing Dem candidates healthcare plans: there’s a former CIA analyst in the panel and he’s saying UHC is too expensive and Sweden’s middle class taxes are 50-60% to pay for their system.
Cmon caf Swedes, chime in.
Do you also get free university, plenty of maternity and other leave for your high taxes (which can’t be 50-60%)?

I have relatives who moved to Denmark and the taxes they paid were around that. But yes, everything was pretty much free and of good quality.

 

[Maagge]

I have relatives who moved to Denmark and the taxes they paid were around that. But yes, everything was pretty much free and of good quality.

You can't go above 52.05 % as far as I remember. A lot of people will pay close to 40 %. Which isn't too bad when you don't have to pay for education, health care etc.

 

[Red Dreams]

You can't go above 52.05 % as far as I remember. A lot of people will pay close to 40 %. Which isn't too bad when you don't have to pay for education, health care etc.

...and you have Social Security should you lose your job and Retirement, which is not retiring into poverty.

We don't need to recreate the wheel here in the US.

Just follow the model created by Denmark and if needed improve on it.

 

[Blackwidow]

That is why you cannot compare taxes. There is a big difference what you get for them...

 

[Florida Man]

Watching Real Time with Bill Maher and they were discussing Dem candidates healthcare plans: there’s a former CIA analyst in the panel and he’s saying UHC is too expensive and Sweden’s middle class taxes are 50-60% to pay for their system.
Cmon caf Swedes, chime in.
Do you also get free university, plenty of maternity and other leave for your high taxes (which can’t be 50-60%)?

IIRC, the income tax rate for a typical Swede is around 32%. Low income earners pay 0% or very little if any. Swedes who make 440,000+ (give or take) are the ones in the 60% bracket.

Any Swedish residents on here can correct me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[Red Dreams]

That is why you cannot compare taxes. There is a big difference what you get for them...

Tax is used as a bad word by both Republicans and Corporate Democrats so they can keep screwing the working class.

 

[nimic]

I'd be surprised if any Swede pays 60% in taxes. Certainly no Norwegian does.

 

[Florida Man]

Tax is used as a bad word by both Republicans and Corporate Democrats so they can keep screwing the working class.

There are A LOT of Americans who genuinely believe that high taxes were the reason for the American Revolution. Not fair representation, no. High taxes.

 

[Red Dreams]

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: As the author of the Medicare bill, let me clear up one thing. As people talk about having insurance, there are millions of people who have insurance, they can’t go to the doctor, and when they come out of the hospital, they go bankrupt. All right? What I am talking about, and others up here are talking about, is no deductibles and no copayments. And, Jake, your question is a Republican talking point. At the end of the day—and by the way—and by the way—by the way, the healthcare industry will be advertising tonight on this program.

 

[utdalltheway]

IIRC, the income tax rate for a typical Swede is around 32%. Low income earners pay 0% or very little if any. Swedes who make 440,000+ (give or take) are the ones in the 60% bracket.

Any Swedish residents on here can correct me if I'm wrong, though.

So hardly middle class then, in that higher tax range. I wish this shit was called out immediately for what it is.

 

[George Owen]

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[Red Dreams]

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But Hey. We need to have Big Pharma a seat at the table when we decide on the Health Care for our citizens.

 

[Adisa]

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[utdalltheway]

Richest country in the world. Could be the greatest, with some changes.

 

[Red Dreams]

Brokers are the other parasites we don't often mention when we talk of Health Care.
They sell these shitty plans to companies who force their employees to take.

Oh. Yes. They all love the health plans they have..because they have to pay all the premiums, co-pays and deductibles.

 

[Blackwidow]

Brokers are the other parasites we don't often mention when we talk of Health Care.
They sell these shitty plans to companies who force their employees to take.

Oh. Yes. They all love the health plans they have..because they have to pay all the premiums, co-pays and deductibles.

Too many people earn too much and make too much profit in the American health system.
I think that is the biggest problem in all of this. Not the overall cost of health.

I think that you cannot just change this system as you never will get to the bottom and you only will feed the monstrum.

 

[Red Dreams]

Too many people earn too much and make too much profit in the American health system.
I think that is the biggest problem in all of this. Not the overall cost of health.

I think that you cannot just change this system as you never will get to the bottom and you only will feed the monstrum.

Medicare was implemented in 1965 just like that.
All it needs is the votes. If a President comes with a solid mandate it can be done.

 

[Eboue]

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From 2009-2016 (the Obama years), healthcare spending increased by 43%! That's what the ACA is. That's what people like Biden and Harris think just needs some tweaks.

 

[Eboue]

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Anything other than full Medicare for all is death

 

[Red Dreams]

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From 2009-2016 (the Obama years), healthcare spending increased by 43%! That's what the ACA is. That's what people like Biden and Harris think just needs some tweaks.

Oh. But Medicare For All will end up destroying Medicare as is...per Biden.
He and Cruz should have joint rallies.

But we are supposed to be voting for Biden should he become the nominee.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Just another example of how for-profit incentives completely screw up health. We really don't know how much better care plus better economic efficiency could exist if we can remove the profiteering from health insurance.

Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...octors-purposely-misdiagnose-patients/596068/

More than a decade later, Martinez is one of hundreds of patients who have accused Awaad of intentionally misreading their EEGs and misdiagnosing them with epilepsy in childhood, all to increase his pay. In June, Martinez’s case became the first to go to trial in Michigan. The case shines a light on the grim world of health-care fraud—specifically, the growing number of doctors who are accused of performing unnecessary procedures, sometimes for their own personal gain.

At Awaad’s trial, Martinez’s lawyers painted a portrait of a man on a quest to conduct as many EEGs as possible, and of a hospital that looked the other way as red flags flew up around him. The lawyers accused Awaad of being hired by Oakwood Healthcare on a contract that compensated him for each EEG he performed. In his time at the hospital, from 1999 to 2007, his salary rose from$185,000 to $300,000, and he qualified for bonuses up to $220,000 if he met certain billing targets. Brian McKeen, Martinez’s lawyer, told jurors that Awaad had “turned that EEG machine into an ATM.”

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Specifics on how privatized care is inefficient
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/he...ensive-inefficient-b99284928z1-262899131.html

 

[Red Dreams]

Just another example of how for-profit incentives completely screw up health. We really don't know how much better care plus better economic efficiency could exist if we can remove the profiteering from health insurance.

Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...octors-purposely-misdiagnose-patients/596068/



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Specifics on how privatized care is inefficient
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/he...ensive-inefficient-b99284928z1-262899131.html

diabolical.

That's new.

 

[Gehrman]

I have relatives who moved to Denmark and the taxes they paid were around that. But yes, everything was pretty much free and of good quality.

Taxes are high in Denmark, but we have free public healthcare, free public schools and universities, SU(A small amount of money to help you while you study at university). We have some the highest social mobility in the world and overall Denmark rates really high in quality of life. There are flaws of course, but I think overall the danish/scandanavian works really well and is in many ways just really sane if you want to build a good society.