Memphis plays where the coach places him, De Boer placed him on the left a couple of games and he did great.
Holland - Euro 2021 discussion
- Thread starter KirkDuyt
- Start date
Ehhh, Vilhena is tenacious and hard working and I remember him doing ok for Orange a few times, but I havent seen much of him in Russia.
I always had a soft spot for him, but he isnt anything special
I think it's safe to say we will win this whole thing.
Your luck was that Santos fecked up the whole thing against Ukraine. If not that we would once again have to upset everyone there with bad boy Pepe and Ronaldo the Diva with a offside goal on the last minute scored by CR7 being him the only prick on the stadium screaming SIIIIII.
He's just average, good physically but lacking technically other than the occasional powerful shot, plays as a midfielder not a wingback though. Probably wouldn't get into the Russian team as a consistent starter if he was eligible and our midfield isn't exactly strong.
De Jong is such a brilliant midfielder if used properly. Don't use him as the #10 and don't use him as the sitting mid, but just a classic #8. A lot like Modric IMO
I'm obviously biased as a dutchman but the way he turns and dribbles out of trouble and creates space with his pace is out of this world IMO. I do not see a lot of players with this skill in midfield right now anywhere, second half from him was great
De Ligt seems to be fit again, so he will most likely replace Timber against Austria on thurday...
De Ligt is back and I imagine he will take Timber's place in our defense to make a trio of Blind, De Vrij, De Ligt.
We're very boring.
They leave soooo much space in the middle of the pitch and basically rely on the individual brilliance of their defenders to bail them out
And they're not much better in attack, plan seems to be to just throw bodies forward and hope the defence fecks up
Getting by on talent against really weak competition so far, fully expect the first good team they face to pull their pants down
De Boer is terrible
And they're not much better in attack, plan seems to be to just throw bodies forward and hope the defence fecks up
Getting by on talent against really weak competition so far, fully expect the first good team they face to pull their pants down
De Boer is terrible
You are really quite scathing of the Dutch team, Giorno. I’ve been extremely pessimistic myself of Netherlands’ chances at this tournament, but I think you are being either a little unfair, or oddly enough, had too high of expectations for this team.
Netherlands has already exceeded my expectations by getting out of the group and I think they have done so pretty convincingly. I don’t expect them to beat any of the top teams, but I think they have performed to the second echelon and with a good draw could get decently far. I’m much more positive then you about these performances it seems.
If the expectation is just to pass the group then they're great but playing like this against one of the best teams in the tournament is a guaranteed loss imo. Austria got into great positions way too easily but then lacked the quality to make something out of it. They're going to need to adapt when it comes down to it, they have the players in defence and midfield to be very tough to beat.
@giorno is italian, they're experts in tournament football. There's a reason you always feel like Italy have a shot at winning any tournament they get into regardless of the squad they have.
They simply don't have the talent. If going forward the best you can offer is Depay you're in big trouble.
The way we play now, it's a shame Van Dijk isnt here. That would make us seriously solid. Swap Malen for Weghorst and we would be a genuine unDutch cede possession counter team.
I still cant get used to us giving an average Austria the ball so much though.
I still cant get used to us giving an average Austria the ball so much though.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sorry Dick. Solid win though. <a href="https://twitter.com/OnsOranje?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@OnsOranje</a> <a href="https://t.co/qMxkCQ3m9R">pic.twitter.com/qMxkCQ3m9R</a></p>— Marten de Roon (@Dirono) <a href="
De Roon's a funny guy
">June 17, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
De Roon's a funny guy
I don't expect them to compete with the likes of france, no, but i think the team should be better than this
More to the point, it's the shocking lack of organization that i take issue with. There is no reason to be that disorganized, except that De Boer is poor coach
I know the dutch have been getting on his case because of the 353, but that's dumb and completely missing the point of their own total football - which by definition isn't tied to formations(not that anyone is in modern football, to be sure). It's the spacing - the dutch are literally the masters of this! - that is just terrible and De Boer should be getting criticized for it
Put it this way: two years ago they dominated england in the NL by being the far better coached side.
And if they play them this tournament it will be a bloodbath
This team shouldn't be good enough to win, but at least be competitive against the top tier sides, like they were under Koeman. Playing like this they won't be
They're Scolari's 2014 brazil, minus neymar
And if they play them this tournament it will be a bloodbath
This team shouldn't be good enough to win, but at least be competitive against the top tier sides, like they were under Koeman. Playing like this they won't be
They're Scolari's 2014 brazil, minus neymar
You didn’t expect us to go through the group? That’s extremely pessimistic. We are easily the best side out of this group.
England had players like Delph and Barkley in midfield that match, and John Stones had a truly terrible day yet after 90 minutes it was still 1-1. In a Nations League tournament where all the big countries didn't seem to care that much about winning whereas the Netherlands approached all the matches with an intensity like they were a CL final, because after failing to qualify for both Euro 2016 and WC 2018 the public demand for results was insane.
Koeman used the same system Frank de Boer does now quite often, and 80-90% of the players are the same. There's a reason why he couldn't wait to take over at a bankrupt Barcelona with a relatively poor squad rather than play the Euros with the team he had made the Nations League with... He's not stupid, he knows a lot of 50-50 matches fell his way and he got 120% out of the quality available at the Dutch NT.
The difference is you were actually well coached under Koeman. Teams struggled to find space against you, the counterpress worked and even with the relative lack of attacking quality you were able to impose yourselves even on good sides
De Boer is chaos. There isn't even a shadow of tactical organization to this team. The ease with which both ukraine and austria consistently managed to play through your middle and get into dangerous positions is mind blowing. You got through those games because they lacked attacking quality, and their defenders were overmatched individually. You should be much better than this
No I don't think we should, based on what exactly? If you analyse our defense: it's actually very chaotic with our captain and best player Van Dijk injured. De Vrij and Dumfries are the only ones in normal condition.
Daley Blind had ankle surgery 9 weeks ago, not being in optimal fitness having to be subbed after 70 minutes twice. De Ligt starting the tournament with an injury and getting cramp after 80 minutes due to lack of fitness last night pretty much sums it up. We actually played a 20 year old guy with 20 professional matches for Ajax in the first match ffs, the first choice goalkeeper stayed at home with COVID, and then there's a left wingback from Crystal Palace who's never played a tournament. Does that sound like the ingredients for a good organisation? In that context it hasn't been half bad, if anything we've already pretty much done the maximum possible.
Midfield has been pretty good, but then the only two half decent attacking options have been sub par quality, yet somehow we scored five goals in two matches. Easily winning the group. If we had one or two more quality options for attack we could maybe have a chance against better teams, now we're just big underdogs very likely to lose against most countries in the knock-out phase.
But no we should be doing much better... WTF man. De Boer's line-up, tactics and also subsitutions have been fine and logical, bringing on Malen for Weghorst last night at the right exact moment made us win comfortably. Has that guy done something to you personally or what? He's not exciting or a potential top coach, but he's done nothing wrong in particular so far.
Based on you should not be this wide open and so reliant on superior individual talent against the likes of ukraine and austria
Not saying you should be doing better. I'm saying you should *be* better
I don't think anyone expects them to win the tournament and it'd be stupid to expect that. But, surely they're having enough talent to be able to control the game well. Currently, they are struggling in midfield and defence more than attack - two positions where they have talent as good as most other countries.
In De Vrij and MDL, they have two top CBs and even though Blind is old, he is still a very astute defender. Similarly, they're having Frenkie and Wijnaldum - two players who can play for nearly every club side in the world with De Roon - again a very decent midfield. They obviously have weaknesses- lack of proper wide players, a lack of a proper goalscorer and all, but surely they need to be having more control of the game against a pretty average Austria and earlier Ukraine side
In De Vrij and MDL, they have two top CBs and even though Blind is old, he is still a very astute defender. Similarly, they're having Frenkie and Wijnaldum - two players who can play for nearly every club side in the world with De Roon - again a very decent midfield. They obviously have weaknesses- lack of proper wide players, a lack of a proper goalscorer and all, but surely they need to be having more control of the game against a pretty average Austria and earlier Ukraine side
I don't know man, are you Italian? I feel Italy is a little bit in the same boat as NL lacking pure quality players in attack compared to the other big countries like France, Belgium, England, but having good options for defense and midfield none the less.
But if you take Italy as the benchmark I can see why you feel the NL isn't that good and should be doing better. Italy has been a fantastic machine under Mancini only losing twice in two years I think. Definitely rate them higher, great organisation and intensity and it feels they definitely can get a result against any team in the knockout stages. But like I explained, it's been chaotic for NL in terms of fitness and injuries in defense, which obviously isn't optimal if you play 5 at the back meaning 50% of your whole team are defenders. And in that regard I really feel we've done the maximum possible with these players so far.
Netherlands is just a bit of an incomplete puzzle in this current situation. If Van Dijk, Blind and De Ligt were 100% fit at the start of this tournament you could play
Dumfries - De Ligt - De Vrij - Van Dijk - Blind
----------------------- De Roon -------------------------
------------- De Jong -- Wijnaldum --------------
And maybe with that back three you could even skip De Roon, put Frenkie in his place play a more adventurous midfielder or a #10 instead.
This would look so much better in terms of defensive organisation and balance I think compared to what we've seen now. Because what's going to happen against a top country? Blind as CB is intelligent and great on the ball passing out from the back, but we have no truly great attackers up front to benefit from his creative passing. While from a pureley defensive point of view, Blind can't kill a match, he's not good in the air, can't physically dominate a striker like Van Dijk, doesn't have the pace either, not at all, so good luck against Mbappe and Benzema.
Conversely Blind as a LWB he would be the best crosser on the team, now we had a big strong guy like Weghorst getting zero good high crosses in the box in two matches because Van Aanholt did nothing on the left. Dumfries was the only attacking outlet and he's been great of course, but simply can't make a good cross to save his life, that's not his quality. So yeah like said it's just an incomplete puzzle, and with the current players available I don't really see the solution.
Last edited:
You're very focused on individuals and the line-up though. @giorno is criticizing the interplay and positioning within those two givens. They can be executed poorly, for example because of a lack of consistency due to player fitness; but the outline indicates what De Boer wants from his players, and that's what at issue here.
Last edited:
Ah yes I understand. It's just basically that I don't see how De Boer can really be blamed for that. He's responsible of course, which I think is something completely different. I feel if Koeman had stayed we'd roughly see the same honestly. He'd play the same system for sure, probably would've selected and played a nearly identical set of players, and we'd see the same flaws. You could argue if Koeman had stayed he would've been able to build a little more on automatisms he installed earlier (like for example very specific things with set pieces and other relatively minor details), but that's why I tried to point out a context of injuries and individual quality available this summer as the factors that mostly decide how the Dutch team has been playing during these last two matches. You could add a short preparation time after a weird Covid season to that, and maybe some other stuff.
I'd say compared to De Boer, Koeman has a little more authority and a lot more charisma, but I haven't seen much indication throughout their careers that he's much stronger tactically. So to claim De Boer is simply 'terrible' like giorno did, and then refer to some Nations League matches from years ago as a reason why it would be much better if Koeman were our coach right now, I don't see much truth in both of those things.
@giorno has bad memories from him at Inter.
Except you didn't have those flaws with Koeman
Maybe it's deliberate based on the quality(or lack thereof) of the opposition and once you play someone good you'll play differently and be much more structured and solid, if so, then i'm talking out my arse
Point i'm making is in these 2 games you showed little actual organization, it was just a bunch of guys bombing forward with little rhyme or reason and trusting you could overwhelm them with intensity and superior physicality/talent.
That wasn't the case with Koeman, you were much more solid, more organized, more an actual team rather than a collection of individuals
Koeman's netherlands would lose to france, but it would give them a game. De Boer's, on the basis of your performances in this tournament, would get massacred
That's what I'm thinking too. To be fair he did some outrageous stuff at Inter. Like he wanted to introduce the Ajax school, building from the back of course, play one touch and go as much as possible. But Kondogbia kept dwelling on the ball, taking four touches everytime because that's his style, and the guy wouldn't listen. So De Boer actually got mad and subbed him off after 30 minutes in one Serie A match
I mean, I’m not sure anyone can really pretend De Boer is not a problem at this point. He has miserably failed in his last three posts and the national team has been deeply disappointing since he’s taken over.
My reply to giorno earlier was not so much that I think De Boer was doing well or Netherlands were ready to go really far in the tournament, it was more my surprise that he seemed to expect more of them which would be folly if you had watched the recent games prior to the euros. These last two games were actually quite composed, pretty good offensively and only somewhat dire defensively, mainly versus Ukraine.
With that said, I think on paper Netherlands has a pretty solid team so you never know what happens if you get some momentum and confidence, even with a dunce for a coach.
My reply to giorno earlier was not so much that I think De Boer was doing well or Netherlands were ready to go really far in the tournament, it was more my surprise that he seemed to expect more of them which would be folly if you had watched the recent games prior to the euros. These last two games were actually quite composed, pretty good offensively and only somewhat dire defensively, mainly versus Ukraine.
With that said, I think on paper Netherlands has a pretty solid team so you never know what happens if you get some momentum and confidence, even with a dunce for a coach.
De Vrij - One of the best Serie A CB's
De Ligt - One of the best Serie A CB's
Frenkie De Jong - Class
Wijnaldum - Class
Memphis - 2nd top scorer in Ligue 1 behind Mbappe
Weghorst - 4th top scorer in Bundesliga behind Lewandovski, Haaland, Andre Silva.
Their weakest players are a veteran goalie with world cup experience, a veteran EPL left back and an okay watercarrier midfielder with CL experience.
To not expect a team with those caliber of players making it out of groups vs Ukraine, Austria, Macedonia makes me think you're either not familiar with the players or just based your opinion on them on the friendlies + De Boer's international failures.
I think Holland dominated both games and their defensive organization was considerably better in the 2nd game. They struggled vs the Austrian press and their passing was too sloppy to get out of it. But they gave away very little chances. Stekelenburg wasn't tested, except for one save near the end.
Their problem in attack wasn't "bombing forward", it was Memphis giving the ball away a zillion times. Other than that, I would have liked to see a few more crosses from the wingbacks on Weghorst. Supossedly crossing is Van Aanholt's strength, but he got very few good ones in. Dumfries is a poor crosser and this makes it very hard for Weghorst to have much of an impact.
There were a few cases where De Ligt or one of the fullbacks had to make good saves. But De Vrij/De Ligt winning all their duels wasn't the Dutch game plan, it's just De Vrij and De Ligt being the best CB pairing of the tournament.
I was really impressed by the defensive organization vs Austria. I think if Memphis has a good game, the Dutch are capable of beating any team. Sadly for the Dutch, Memphis is too inconsistent, so I don't see them capable of 2 upsets in a row.
Typical De BoerThat's what I'm thinking too. To be fair he did some outrageous stuff at Inter. Like he wanted to introduce the Ajax school, building from the back of course, play one touch and go as much as possible. But Kondogbia kept dwelling on the ball, taking four touches everytime because that's his style, and the guy wouldn't listen. So De Boer actually got mad and subbed him off after 30 minutes in one Serie A match
Thing is, the Dutch players with a Dutch footballing education understand him better and have an easier time executing his ideas. The closer he is to home, the better his coaching will be. I don't rate him, but he isn't the guaranteed failure that some people are expecting.
As @VanDeBank said, sure we're not the Dutch team we used to be with Bergkamp, Van Basten or Robben and Sneijder, but it's not impressive that we got out of this group at all. We are a far better team than Ukraine and Austria. De Boer's start has been absolutely rubbish, but on paper we're comfortably a top 10 country if you ask me.
I agree with the sentiment that getting out of this group isn't any achievement as the players you have are pretty good. However, I'm not sure if you're a top 10 country though. I'd put France, Belgium, England, Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay above you. However, I do realize that you have a young side and if your players fulfill the potential, you'll comfortably be better than half the sides I just listed
I actually meant top 10 in Europe, though, world wide it's not so comfortable, but I think you could still argue we're on par with the likes of Uruguay and Argentina. the other 8 are definitely better than us.
Holland will be cheering on Austria-Ukraine ending with a draw tonight or Belgium not beating Finland.
If not they will face 3rd from the Germany, France or Portugal group
If not they will face 3rd from the Germany, France or Portugal group
I think Spain is pretty close, but maybe I'm biased because of their poor group performances right now. Belgium has some clear weaknesses that will get exposed in the next tournaments. Their centre backs are fossils, and while I'm sure Italy can replace theirs, Belgium might not.
The Dutch are really lucky that they have talented young players in their weakest positions:
GK: Bijlow
STR: Malen
CM: Gravenberch
They will easily make it into the starting XI in the next 1-3 years.
Their only problem area is LWB, but there are options with a young Wijndal/Malacia, a wildcard in Willems or with F. De Jong/Koopmeiners filling that position similarly to how Blind did during the 2014 WC.
Let's not forgot even the great 2010 team had some average players in Mathijssen, Heitinga, Van der Wiel, Kuyt (sorry @KirkDuyt )
I think with how both teams set up, Germany would be doable. The Dutch have no chance against Portugal.
Aren't there way too many permutations to be sure?
Swiss are as good as through. A poland win vs Sweden takes 3 teams from that group through as well. Similarly, a Croatia win vs Scotland takes 3 teams from that group through. And one would say all these results are quite possible as well. If Portugal lose their game, their hopes would hang on a result in the Austria-Ukraine game, and I wouldn't be surprised to see both play it safe and go for a draw as both of them have a better GD than Swiss and it'd effectively guarantee them a place in next round
The best thing the Dutch can do is root for Hungary to beat Germany, no?