ICE are the 21st century Gestapo

[psychdelicblues]

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[utdalltheway]

Sad. How was she so dehydrated and exhausted though. She was reportedly in CBP custody for 8 hours so she must have done the damage before that. Still, if it’s proven that authorities didn’t give her water they should be in trouble.

 

[Arruda]

According to what I read she didn't drink or eat for several days before entering Border Patrol custody. Then for 8 further hours after detained she still wasn't fed. It's inhumane to leave someone wothout drinking or eating for so long. This was probably just negligence or poor organization, I assume, as she was rushed to an hospital as soon as her symptoms became evident (convulsions). As bad as this looks on border patrol services, you have to wonder how her parents (or whoever was responsible for her care) allowed the situation to get to that point. I mean leave the fecking caravan and go look for some water.

 

[Fully Fledged]

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This is so far beyond accept that it's crazy. How can a seven year old die of dehydration while being held in detention by a first world government.

How can any politician of either party accept this. This should bring down the government. The fact that it won't is a sad indictment on where world politics is at the moment.

 

[Fully Fledged]

According to what I read she didn't drink or eat for several days before entering Border Patrol custody. Then for 8 further hours after detained she still wasn't fed. It's inhumane to leave someone wothout drinking or eating for so long. This was probably just negligence or poor organization, I assume, as she was rushed to an hospital as soon as her symptoms became evident (convulsions). As bad as this looks on border patrol services, you have to wonder how her parents (or whoever was responsible for her care) allowed the situation to get to that point. I mean leave the fecking caravan and go look for some water.

The responsibility of here parents stopped the moment that she was taken into custody. Every child that is taken in to custody should be given a medical assessment as soon as is possible. Signs of dehydration are visible far before the patient starts to convulse.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'm not sure the last eight hours contributed significantly to her condition. It's possible that providing her with food and water may not have had any positive impact by that point.

That said, in a general sense I'd expect that migrants taken into custody would be given water straight away. There's plenty of legal risk for the agencies involved so treating people properly should be paramount.

 

[Eboue]

ice / bp absolutely bears responsibility for her death

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[Dr. Dwayne]

They've been doing that for a few years, though, Ebs. ICE BP certainly bears responsibility for the girl not receiving medical attention but her fate was probably sealed before they took her into custody.

This is not to say that ICE are not inhumane bastards.

 

[Fully Fledged]

They've been doing that for a few years, though, Ebs. ICE BP certainly bears responsibility for the girl not receiving medical attention but her fate was probably sealed before they took her into custody.

This is not to say that ICE are not inhumane bastards.

That doesn't mean they are not responsible if a child dies because of this destruction.

 

[Eboue]

Yes it does

 

[Fully Fledged]

Yes it does

Thanks for pointing out I missed a word out of my post.

I meant that it doesn't mean they are not responsible. I've changed my post.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

That doesn't mean they are not responsible if a child dies because of this destruction.

Prove to me that the child died because ICE destroys water stashed by Coyotes.

It's highly likely that the girl was in serious medical difficulty prior to crossing into the US. Coyotes aren't know for taking good care of the people they smuggle, after all.

There are plenty of sticks to beat ICE with and until a proper investigation is conducted, this isn't one of them.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Prove to me that the child died because ICE destroys water stashed by Coyotes.

It's highly likely that the girl was in serious medical difficulty prior to crossing into the US. Coyotes aren't know for taking good care of the people they smuggle, after all.

There are plenty of sticks to beat ICE with and until a proper investigation is conducted, this isn't one of them.

Prove to me she didn't. You destroy those bottles and a child dies it's on you to prove that you are not culpable especially when she is in your custody for 8 hours before she dies.

 

[Cheesy]

Prove to me that the child died because ICE destroys water stashed by Coyotes.

It's highly likely that the girl was in serious medical difficulty prior to crossing into the US. Coyotes aren't know for taking good care of the people they smuggle, after all.

There are plenty of sticks to beat ICE with and until a proper investigation is conducted, this isn't one of them.

If she was in a bad condition there's probably a strong argument she should've been getting medical attention instead of being placed into custody.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Prove to me she didn't. You destroy those bottles and a child dies it's on you to prove that you are not culpable especially when she is in your custody for 8 hours before she dies.

People can survive without water for three days, on average. The hot and dry conditions in that part of the Americas could reduce this window but even then, the human body will obtain liquid from itself. This eventually leads us to stop sweating and producing saliva (so feeding her may have been impossible). As a result the body overheats leading to any number of serious and intense complications. That's a quick summary of how dehydration kills. It's a reasonably lengthy process. Not one that happens in under 24 hours.

Your turn.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If she was in a bad condition there's probably a strong argument she should've been getting medical attention instead of being placed into custody.

Absolutely! But there's no guarantee that would have been successful. Still, that's a major oversight and ICE needs to be investigated for that.

 

[Cheesy]

Absolutely! But there's no guarantee that would have been successful. Still, that's a major oversight and ICE needs to be investigated for that.

There's no guarantee - but then that can't be proven, and as a result culpability surely has to fall to ICE. If I'm a doctor and someone has a heart attack there's a somewhat decent chance they won't make it in spite of my best efforts - nevertheless if I actively decide not to treat them, or am negligent in my duties, then the responsibility still falls to me irrespective of whether or not that person would have made it out alive.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

There's no guarantee - but then that can't be proven, and as a result culpability surely has to fall to ICE. If I'm a doctor and someone has a heart attack there's a somewhat decent chance they won't make it in spite of my best efforts - nevertheless if I actively decide not to treat them, or am negligent in my duties, then the responsibility still falls to me irrespective of whether or not that person would have made it out alive.

An autopsy should give us some insight into the girl's condition at the time she was taken into custody.

ICE processes and performance need to be reviewed in this case. Was she observed by competent medical practitioners into the facility. Did anyone communicate with her family. Was her condition or need identified by her family or and ICE agent? Are there protocols that demand children are examined to determine their condition when interred? (It's a horrible, hot and exhaudting journey, afterall).

There are a lot of questions to ask. I just don't agree with pinning the blame for her death on ICE without a proper review and I think they are horrible cnuts.

 

[Fully Fledged]

People can survive without water for three days, on average. The hot and dry conditions in that part of the Americas could reduce this window but even then, the human body will obtain liquid from itself. This eventually leads us to stop sweating and producing saliva (so feeding her may have been impossible). As a result the body overheats leading to any number of serious and intense complications. That's a quick summary of how dehydration kills. It's a reasonably lengthy process. Not one that happens in under 24 hours.

Your turn.

https://academic.oup.com/trstmh/article-abstract/54/4/297/1874866?redirectedFrom=fulltext

This link leads to a story of an adult who died of dehydration from 11 am to the evening in desert(hot conditions). Having drank at 11 and bringing a pint bottle of water with him. It happens all the time it doesn't necessarily take days to die of dehydration.

If you want I can find other stories of people dying in less than a day of dehydration. There are thousands.

Back to you.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

https://academic.oup.com/trstmh/article-abstract/54/4/297/1874866?redirectedFrom=fulltext

This link leads to a story of an adult who died of dehydration from 11 am to the evening in desert(hot conditions). Having drank at 11 and bringing a pint bottle of water with him. It happens all the time it doesn't necessarily take days to die of dehydration.

If you want I can find other stories of people dying in less than a day of dehydration. There are thousands.

Back to you.

That kind of supports my position that ICEs destuction of water supply dumps are not responsible for the girls death. In that part of the US it's almost irrelevant. The impact of the heat and sun is significant and she may well have been in an unrecoverable condition when taken in. ICE made mistakes once she was in their custody, no doubt but all I've said is that I don't agree with blaming ICE at this time.

 

[Fully Fledged]

That kind of supports my position that ICEs destuction of water supply dumps are not responsible for the girls death. In that part of the US it's almost irrelevant. The impact of the heat and sun is significant and she may well have been in an irrevocable position when taken in. ICE made mistakes once she was in their custody, no doubt but all I've said is that I don't agree with blaming ICE at this time.

8 hours in custody are. The story proves that you can be fine but spending 8 hours without water in extreme heat could have been all it needed for her to go from full health to dehydrated. Also yes taking on water regularly while travelling over the distance would have kept her hydrated if water was not where her family had been told it would be that could also lead to her death. So destroying the water could lead to death.

When a minor dies in the hands of an agency that took her into custody they are guilty until they can prove otherwise. Here in the UK if an adult dies in a police cell that is a major event in which the duty officer is accountable unless evidence can be brought to show that the prisoner would have died anyway.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

8 hours in custody are. The story proves that you can be fine but spending 8 hours without water in extreme heat could have been all it needed for her to go from full health to dehydrated. Also yes taking on water regularly while travelling over the distance would have kept her hydrated if water was not where her family had been told it would be that could also lead to her death. So destroying the water could lead to death.

When a minor dies in the hands of an agency that took her into custody they are guilty until they can prove otherwise. Here in the UK if an adult dies in a police cell that is a major event in which the duty officer is accountable unless evidence can be brought to show that the prisoner would have died anyway.

I don't know what conditions are like in the detention centre. They may be hot and muggy or it may be that concrete floors and shelter from the sun make for a more forgiving environment than the New Mexico desert. The link you posted suggests that even taking on water regularly may not provide sufficient protection from conditions there.

It seems quite apparent that ICE made mistakes once she was in their custody. I'm not disputing that. Nor am I absolving them of culpability in her death; however, I am content to wait for the appropriate details to come out before proclaiming their guilt. This outrage over this incident is an appeal to emotion and it needs facts to get to the bottom of things.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I don't know what conditions are like in the detention centre. They may be hot and muggy or it may be that concrete floors and shelter from the sun make for a more forgiving environment than the New Mexico desert. The link you posted suggests that even taking on water regularly may not provide sufficient protection from conditions there.

It seems quite apparent that ICE made mistakes once she was in their custody. I'm not disputing that. Nor am I absolving them of culpability in her death; however, I am content to wait for the appropriate details to come out before proclaiming their guilt. This outrage over this incident is an appeal to emotion and it needs facts to get to the bottom of things.

It said that 1 pint of water made no difference because he lost pints but if you have pints of water on a regular basis then that would be different. They even mentioned that there was water in the radiator that might have kept him alive.

The 8 hours in custody is the main thing though. If she was severely dehydrated when she came in she should have spent the 8 hours in a medical unit having fluids put into her body intravenously so they can be absorbed directly into the system. If that happened then fine but if that is not the case...

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The 8 hours in custody is the main thing though. If she was severely dehydrated when she came in she should have spent the 8 hours in a medical unit having fluids put into her body intravenously so they can be absorbed directly into the system. If that happened then fine but if that is not the case...

I've said this continually. ICE fecked up once they took her in. Whether they have any protocols for this kind of situation or not. At the individual level or systemically, something went wrong. However, that doesn't necessarily make them fully responsible for her death. I would rather wait for more information before making that determination.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I've said this continually. ICE fecked up once they took her in. Whether they have any protocols for this kind of situation or not. At the individual level or systemically, something went wrong. However, that doesn't necessarily make them fully responsible for her death. I would rather wait for more information before making that determination.

I didn't say they were fully responsible. I said that after what happened it's up to them to prove that they are not fully responsible. That's the way it should work for a law enforcement department when someone dies in their custody especially when that someone is a child.

 

[Abizzz]

How are ICE not responsible when someone dies of dehydration 8 hours after being taken into custody by them? Especially when that someone is 7 years old?

I'm not going to wait for further evidence because I simply don't trust ICE to be honest about it. Let's just hope no one else will die of dehydration.

 

[maniak]

I simply don't trust ICE to be honest about it.

This is the thing, so many horror stories and cover up attempts, that we can't take anything these guys say as truth.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I didn't say they were fully responsible. I said that after what happened it's up to them to prove that they are not fully responsible. That's the way it should work for a law enforcement department when someone dies in their custody especially when that someone is a child.

To be fair, the post I replied to didn't indicate degrees of culpability.

@Arruda mentioned information that suggests the girl had not eaten or drank for some time before they were apprehended. This suggests that physically she may well have been too far gone at that point to be saved. That doesn't excuse the absence of care in this case or ICEs inhuman treatment of migrants in general. It does highlight the lack of humanity in all of this and hopefully gives rise to better policies and procedures at ICE.

 

[Fully Fledged]

To be fair, the post I replied to didn't indicate degrees of culpability.

@Arruda mentioned information that suggests the girl had not eaten or drank for some time before they were apprehended. This suggests that physically she may well have been too far gone at that point to be saved. That doesn't excuse the absence of care in this case or ICEs inhuman treatment of migrants in general. It does highlight the lack of humanity in all of this and hopefully gives rise to better policies and procedures at ICE.

I'd hope so.

 

[utdalltheway]

Heard that it was a group of approx 160 people and being dealt with by a small border station. Sounds like she might have slipped through the cracks. What was her father doing for her health all that time before she got to CBP?

 

[Red Dreams]

not having even water and some basic food at these places?
Of course ICE and the administration is at fault.

 

[utdalltheway]

not having even water and some basic food at these places?
Of course ICE and the administration is at fault.

For 160+ people at a remote station?
More info will come out on this so let’s hold off on the accusations of negligence/criminal responsibility.

 

[Eboue]

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[Dr. Dwayne]

Timeline as published by CNN. Chris Cuomo summarized this last night.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/15/us/guatemalan-girl-death-timeline/index.html

December 6
9:15 p.m.
Jakelin and her father, Nery Gilberto Caal, 29, were among a group of 163 migrants detained by Border Patrol agents about a half-mile west of the Antelope Wells port of entry in New Mexico.
They were interviewed by agents to determine if they needed medical care.
Her father signed a form saying he and Jakelin were healthy.
10 p.m.
A bus left a Border Patrol station in Lordsburg, New Mexico, to pick up the group of migrants. The station is about 90 minutes away.
December 7
12:18 a.m.
The bus arrived at the Antelope Wells port of entry to take 50 unaccompanied children to the Lordsburgh station.
Around 5 a.m.
Once the bus returned, some 50 migrants, including Jakelin and her father, were loaded onto it. With the bus preparing to leave, Jakelin's father told agents his daughter was sick and vomiting.
Border agents called the Lordsburg station and requested that an emergency medical technician be ready when the bus arrived.
Just before 6:30 a.m.
When the bus arrived at the Border Patrol station, Jakelin's father said his daughter was not breathing.
Emergency medical technicians treated her and requested an ambulance.
Her temperature was more than 105 degrees, and medics had to revive her twice.
6:40 a.m.
An ambulance arrived, and a helicopter was called to take the child to a hospital in El Paso, Texas, more than four hours away by vehicle.
7:30 a.m.
A helicopter arrived at the Border Patrol station.
7:48 a.m.
The helicopter left the station with Jakelin. Her father stayed in Lordsburg, and agents drove him to the hospital in El Paso.
8:51 a.m.
Jakelin arrived at the Providence Children's Hospital in El Paso. She was treated in the emergency room and later transferred to the pediatric intensive care unit.
11 a.m.
Border Patrol officials in Lordsburg were notified that Jakelin was revived again after going into cardiac arrest, US Customs and Border Protection said.
A CT scan revealed she was suffering brain swelling. She was breathing by machine and was diagnosed with liver failure.
December 8
12:35 a.m.
Jakelin died with her father by her side. An initial report by the hospital said she passed away due to sepsis shock.
Authorities notified the Guatemalan Consulate about Jakelin's death.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Timeline as published by CNN. Chris Cuomo summarized this last night.

A sad death then but it seems that they did everything that they could. Sepsis shock is a horrible way to go but it means that she was probably already terminal when she arrived at the boarded.


Those people who asked what was here father doing. Most likely trying to give her a better life. We live in a world were people risk their lives and the lives of the people they love on a daily basis to try and get a better life. It's tragic but there are people out there with nothing to lose their life is so bad.

 

[utdalltheway]

It’s understood why her father was trying to get her & him into the US.
Sad that it had to work out this way. Can’t imagine how he’s feeling atm.

 

[Fully Fledged]

It’s understood why her father was trying to get her & him into the US.
Sad that it had to work out this way. Can’t imagine how he’s feeling atm.

He obviously wishes it was him rather than her. It's called survivors guilt. It has to be horrible for him.

 

[Eboue]

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[SwansonsTache]

To go travelling around Christmas time without a hotel reservation is daring.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

December 6
9:15 p.m.
Jakelin and her father, Nery Gilberto Caal, 29, were among a group of 163 migrants detained by Border Patrol agents about a half-mile west of the Antelope Wells port of entry in New Mexico.
They were interviewed by agents to determine if they needed medical care.
Her father signed a form saying he and Jakelin were healthy.
10 p.m.
A bus left a Border Patrol station in Lordsburg, New Mexico, to pick up the group of migrants. The station is about 90 minutes away.
December 7
12:18 a.m.
The bus arrived at the Antelope Wells port of entry to take 50 unaccompanied children to the Lordsburgh station.
Around 5 a.m.
Once the bus returned, some 50 migrants, including Jakelin and her father, were loaded onto it. With the bus preparing to leave, Jakelin's father told agents his daughter was sick and vomiting.
Border agents called the Lordsburg station and requested that an emergency medical technician be ready when the bus arrived.
Just before 6:30 a.m.
When the bus arrived at the Border Patrol station, Jakelin's father said his daughter was not breathing.
Emergency medical technicians treated her and requested an ambulance.
Her temperature was more than 105 degrees, and medics had to revive her twice.
6:40 a.m.
An ambulance arrived, and a helicopter was called to take the child to a hospital in El Paso, Texas, more than four hours away by vehicle.
7:30 a.m.
A helicopter arrived at the Border Patrol station.
7:48 a.m.
The helicopter left the station with Jakelin. Her father stayed in Lordsburg, and agents drove him to the hospital in El Paso.
8:51 a.m.
Jakelin arrived at the Providence Children's Hospital in El Paso. She was treated in the emergency room and later transferred to the pediatric intensive care unit.
11 a.m.
Border Patrol officials in Lordsburg were notified that Jakelin was revived again after going into cardiac arrest, US Customs and Border Protection said.
A CT scan revealed she was suffering brain swelling. She was breathing by machine and was diagnosed with liver failure.
December 8
12:35 a.m.
Jakelin died with her father by her side. An initial report by the hospital said she passed away due to sepsis shock.
Authorities notified the Guatemalan Consulate about Jakelin's death.

Is that a condition caused by dehydration?