If you have tried everything and nothing has worked, what on earth do you do next?

Sky1981

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The staff usually go with the manager. McKenna should stay in some capacity though IMO. From all accounts he did an excellent job with the youth teams.
Not our lot I'm afraid. they won't get jobs anywhere else, not a job of this stature.

The next DOF has to be extremely cruel and cunning
 

amolbhatia50k

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Not our lot I'm afraid. they won't get jobs anywhere else, not a job of this stature.

The next DOF has to be extremely cruel and cunning
Let them not get jobs elsewhere. Not our problem. Like I said McKenna has already produced with us in the past so he could be retained but decision so of the next management to make.
 

Camilo

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This is what Herrera said:

And

Source: https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/08/ander-herrera-takes-dig-manchester-united-board-psg-transfer-10130578/amp/

Ole was appointed permanent manager on 28th March. I don't think he'd have much saying in transfer/contract matters as a caretaker, especially a big contract like Herrera's.

It has been made obviously clear that Lukaku won't start over Martial or Rashford as CF. Fellani won't start over Pogba or Mc Tominey or Lingard in the center. Sanchez will definitely not start over Rashford on the left. I doubt Sanchez could start even on the right regarding the signing of James.

It seems it's clear to everyone that Lukaku, Fellani and Sanchez were not first team starters, except you.
Well I dunno, like I said, Herrera wasn't gone until he was gone. Until contracts are signed everything can change. He's a nice guy - putting a little blame at the feet of the board keeps everyone sweet. I very much believe that if we'd made him a proper offer he would've stayed, and provided some much needed experience and professionalism on the pitch. He held off saying anything for ages.. I think if Ole had made a fuss he'd still be with us.

If you read the forum you'd see I'm very much not alone in my opinion. If you think Lukaku, Fellaini and Herrera wouldn't be starting over this lot most weeks.... We'd be fielding men instead of boys. Selling your better players to give worse players more game time in some bat-shit crazy hope that our kids suddenly become world-beaters is insane. Rashford has been appalling this season. Martial, now in his 5th season, is usually described as potentially a great forward... Lingard is...shite? And we all like McTominey but he's a solid squad option right now. An understudy.

So as I originally said - don't sell your better players unless it improves the squad. Selling players because next season we might replace them is bonkers.
 

atticus finch

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We cant get the right player if we finished 10th.

It'll throw a massive spanner to the whole processes, we cant keep pogba if we finished 10th he already wants out when we finished 2nd.

These things are correlated, you cant pretend everything will be better in january without counting the other factor.
I think we can find 4-5 good players willing to come to us over a two year period.
 
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Green_Red

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We haven't tried minimising Ed's role in football matters and filling the void with competent 'football people'. I say try that.
Thats the root cause and solution all in one sentence.

We need someone that has a long term vision of where the club needs to be, not a quick fix that can help with this years revenue numbers. Business people ultimately care about 1 thing only, the bottom line. As long as that is ok, then there will never be the change required. The Man Utd business is thriving in spite of our performances and lack of proper long term investment in the squad.
 

Strelok

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Well I dunno, like I said, Herrera wasn't gone until he was gone. Until contracts are signed everything can change. He's a nice guy - putting a little blame at the feet of the board keeps everyone sweet. I very much believe that if we'd made him a proper offer he would've stayed, and provided some much needed experience and professionalism on the pitch. He held off saying anything for ages.. I think if Ole had made a fuss he'd still be with us.
If you read what he said then you'd see he gave PSG his words before the board offered him a new contract. If he didn't keep his words and signed the new contract just because it's better than what PSG promised him then what kind of man is he ?
And please stop trying to put the blame on Ole on this, you're protecting your argument just for the sake of protecting it mate.

If you read the forum you'd see I'm very much not alone in my opinion. If you think Lukaku, Fellaini and Herrera wouldn't be starting over this lot most weeks.... We'd be fielding men instead of boys.
What we were talking about was whether Lukaku, Fellani and Sanchez were considered first team starters at the start of the season or at the moment they were sold, who clearly were not. If a player starts just because of another player is injured then we don't call them first team starters. We call them backup.

Anyway, it does seem to me that you refuse or could not see the point here. We'd better stop here mate, cheers.
 
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buckooo1978

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the solution is simple but there is no willingness to work towards it

The club isnt run as a football club. Its run as a piggy bank for the Glazers. If we replaced Woodward tomorrow nothing would change without a change in attitude at the top.

Personally I'd like to see people like Fergie, Sir Bobby, Neville etc start to become vocal about the poor way thr club is run.

this might focus pressure on the Glazers again to change the way they run the club but theres no guarantee

a change in ownership, a progressive manager, 3 years and 600 million and we would be back

the question for me is how do you get the Glazers to sell. How do we hit them in the pocket so much that they sell
 

Foxbatt

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If you read what he said then you'd see he gave PSG his words before the board offered him a new contract. If he didn't keep his words and signed the new contract just because it's better than what PSG promised him then what kind of man is he ?
And please stop trying to put the blame on Ole on this, you're protecting your argument just for the sake of protecting it mate.



What we were talking about was whenever Lukaku, Fellani and Sanchez were considered first team starters at the start of the season or at the moment they were sold, who clearly were not. If a player starts just because of another player is injured then we don't call them first team starters. We call them backup.

Anyway, it does seem to me that you refuse or could not see the point here. We'd better stop here mate, cheers.
Fellaini has never been a starter usually at United. That doesn't mean he was irrelevant. He is the plan B most of the time. It's not the first 11 that wins trophies. It's the squad. That said Fellaini would have played an important part in all of the matches we have played if we had a sensible manager.
Lukaku was terrible under Ole. But he was decent under Jose and now at Milan. Certainly he is playing better than Rashford now.
You don't cull your squad without finding better replacements and then say the team is losing because of injuries. The injuries we are having is what any team is going to have during the course of the season. What worries me is that most of the injuries are not caused by opposing players but our own fitness regime.
 

Sky1981

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the solution is simple but there is no willingness to work towards it

The club isnt run as a football club. Its run as a piggy bank for the Glazers. If we replaced Woodward tomorrow nothing would change without a change in attitude at the top.

Personally I'd like to see people like Fergie, Sir Bobby, Neville etc start to become vocal about the poor way thr club is run.

this might focus pressure on the Glazers again to change the way they run the club but theres no guarantee

a change in ownership, a progressive manager, 3 years and 600 million and we would be back

the question for me is how do you get the Glazers to sell. How do we hit them in the pocket so much that they sell
Fergie is the man behind Moyes appointment.

So clearly while he's a great manager, his dof decisiion aren't error prone. And don't get me started about Neville
 

buckooo1978

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Fergie is the man behind Moyes appointment.

So clearly while he's a great manager, his dof decisiion aren't error prone. And don't get me started about Neville
As incredible as Fergie was if he hasn't entered into a dispute with McManus and Magnier over a fecking horses stud rights then the Glazers wouldn't be there

he didnt cover himself in glory when telling disgruntled United fans to go off and support Chelsea either

the Moyes appointment was a mistake no doubt too but I'd love to know how he feels about the way the club is being run right now....

What's his feelings about the quality of that squad I wonder
 

roonster09

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We haven't tried everything and we haven't even tried the most basic things that most football clubs are following. We are still relying on managers to sign players when most clubs have moved on from that long back. They all hire experts for each department and we expect manager to run each department.

We haven't hired manager who is on the rise and plays attacking game. We hired managers who aren't good enough, 1 manager who is past it and 1 who is close to past it.
 

Strelok

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Fellaini has never been a starter usually at United. That doesn't mean he was irrelevant. He is the plan B most of the time. It's not the first 11 that wins trophies. It's the squad. That said Fellaini would have played an important part in all of the matches we have played if we had a sensible manager.
Lukaku was terrible under Ole. But he was decent under Jose and now at Milan. Certainly he is playing better than Rashford now.
You don't cull your squad without finding better replacements and then say the team is losing because of injuries. The injuries we are having is what any team is going to have during the course of the season. What worries me is that most of the injuries are not caused by opposing players but our own fitness regime.
Again, what was discussing was whether Lukaku, Fellani and Sanchez were considered first team starters at the start of the season or the moment they were sold. We did not discuss whether selling them was a correct decision or not.

It does seem to me that you don't understand what I said. Was my English that bad :(?

Anyway, run out of my quota :houllier:
See you tomorrow mate :)
 

redshaw

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We haven't tried everything, in fact 6-7 years in I'd say we tried almost nothing for a big club looking to replace Fergie. Hired Moyes, we have time to correct that mistake but we hire a guy due for retiring, then we watch the Chelsea debacle unfold and decide to hire damaged goods and watch the same thing repeat, both Roman and Ed don't back him and it ends in tears. Then we hire an ex player who's not qualified.

Meanwhile the club is still yet to hire a reasonable top manager of which there are many and appoint a director of football. Jose was the closest to it but he was a flawed hire by the time we look at him with all the warning signs. We miss out on managers and players and hope to fix it by splashing the cash after the fact.

We hire a 5th placed moyes, ended up 7th.
Lvg is a winner normally, ended up 4th and 5th
Jose normally wins, ended up 4th and 2nd
Ole got relegated with cardiff, +2 for taking a better team in united, probably 12th - 13th
Jose was 6th, 2nd, and on course for 6th-8th. He won Europa which got us into the CL while finishing 6th with Pogba, Zlatan, Bailly and Miki.
 

Sky1981

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We haven't tried everything, in fact 6-7 years in I'd say we tried almost nothing for a big club looking to replace Fergie. Hired Moyes, we have time to correct that mistake but we hire a guy due for retiring, then we watch the Chelsea debacle unfold and decide to hire damaged goods and watch the same thing repeat, both Roman and Ed don't back him and it ends in tears. Then we hire an ex player who's not qualified.

Meanwhile the club is still yet to hire a reasonable top manager of which there are many and appoint a director of football. Jose was the closest to it but he was a flawed hire by the time we look at him with all the warning signs. We miss out on managers and players and hope to fix it by splashing the cash after the fact.



Jose was 6th, 2nd, and on course for 6th-8th. He won Europa which got us into the CL while finishing 6th with Pogba, Zlatan, Bailly and Miki.
Problem is. 12 months after, we're splashing cash (and we will again in January, lots of it), giving it to a young modern coach (by whosever standards that is), and we're in a much bigger mess than Moyes.
 

redshaw

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Problem is. 12 months after, we're splashing cash (and we will again in January, lots of it), giving it to a young modern coach (by whosever standards that is), and we're in a much bigger mess than Moyes.
That's my point, we'll be doing the same thing this Jan.

We can only hope if we do sign 4 players, one or two will be a good surprise.
 

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- we haven’t hired a DoF
- we haven’t allowed any of our managers adequate time
- we haven’t, until recently, targeted the right players in the transfer market

So we haven’t tried everything. In fact, two blueprints for “how to run the perfect football club” are sat within a 30 mile radius of our stadium! So simple yet so backwards still!
 

Enigma_87

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- we haven’t hired a DoF
- we haven’t allowed any of our managers adequate time
- we haven’t, until recently, targeted the right players in the transfer market

So we haven’t tried everything. In fact, two blueprints for “how to run the perfect football club” are sat within a 30 mile radius of our stadium! So simple yet so backwards still!
We still haven't. The Brexit strategy is not the way to go either.
 

Lentwood

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We still haven't. The Brexit strategy is not the way to go either.
We should always prioritise a good British player with PL experience over a good foreign player with no PL experience - that’s just basic risk management

Of course, when a foreign player is far superior to their UK-based counterparts, then it may become worth the risk
 

Enigma_87

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We should always prioritise a good British player with PL experience over a good foreign player with no PL experience - that’s just basic risk management

Of course, when a foreign player is far superior to their UK-based counterparts, then it may become worth the risk
I disagree. British players always come at a premium price. Our scouting network must raise their level.

It's not like we didn't have some duds from PL as well.
 

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The solution is to hire the most qualified person available for the role of manager. The notion that because somebody with experience failed at something, it therefore follows that you must appoint a novice to replace him, is patently ludicrous.

Get in a top coach and hire an experienced DoF to work alongside him. Give them a decent budget (say £150m net in each of the next two summer windows) and leave them alone to work.

You are putting together a group of eleven guys to kick a ball around on a lawn - this isn't rocket science.
 

Maticmaker

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Squad is threadbare right now and expectations need to be adjusted to reflect that
And in my opinion deliberately so, a clear out was needed and has begun.

The big issue for Ole and his team is keeping some degree of control over expectations without appearing to be waving a white flag and picking a team and a method of play to win or at least avoid defeat in each and every game.

Being good on the counterattack is fine when playing teams who come after us, but when teams turn up with their arms (metaphorically folded) and 8-9 man defence and in effect say "go on then break us down" we have to have more than Jesse Lingard running about and in between their defensive lines, without the ball, hoping to create space for others, especially when the 'others' are on a different page, or are sulking and demanding the ball to their feet.
Getting the best out of 'the hand dealt you' and/or 'what you have in the locker' is a basic tenet for any manager, Ole and his team need to show their abilities in this respect, now more than ever.
 

M Bison

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The solution is to hire the most qualified person available for the role of manager. The notion that because somebody with experience failed at something, it therefore follows that you must appoint a novice to replace him, is patently ludicrous.

Get in a top coach and hire an experienced DoF to work alongside him. Give them a decent budget (say £150m net in each of the next two summer windows) and leave them alone to work.

You are putting together a group of eleven guys to kick a ball around on a lawn - this isn't rocket science.
But isnt that the point, we did hire the most qualified person available not once but twice, it didnt work and the perception from fans, media and pundits was that neither were promoting the "United Way" hence why we've tried a different direction with Ole who is someone who is someone with the supposed United Way of thinking.

As is written in the OP, if its not Ole, who is it? This most qualified person?

Unfortunately and as we have experienced, its a little more complicated than just kicking a ball around a piece of grass.
 

Rhyme Animal

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We haven't 'tried everything' though - far fecking from it...

Woodward's decisions are literally absurd most of the time, hence the situation the club is now in.

It's like watching someone trying to make a cup of tea, and instead of simply using the items marked 'teabags', they're trying to use anything else in the kitchen - lettuce, eggs, coffee, bread...

And it goes on for so long that people start actually seeing logic in the utter idiocy and start thinking, 'what on Earth could we try next...?'.

When the decisions that need to be made are fecking obvious and simple.

Sack the League 1 manager that you've for some reason employed.

Employ the manager with the best coaching abilities that you can persuade to join.

Back him, properly.
 

adexkola

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That's what everyone does. They don't stand on their hands telling themselves that they tried everything, they simply think "we didn't do it properly and we will improve the execution". United fans have been so used to SAF stability that they fail to accept that in football everyone fails and everyone tries again with small tweaks until it works.
That's not a good strategy, "continue to fail and pray it works out this next time". I may be misinterpreting what you're saying but if I'm right then...
 

JPRouve

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That's not a good strategy, "continue to fail and pray it works out this next time". I may be misinterpreting what you're saying but if I'm right then...
No, I'm simply making the point that there is a difference between doing and doing well. The quality of the execution is key, if you didn't do something properly, you do it again with better application and planning, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
 

adexkola

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No, I'm simply making the point that there is a difference between doing and doing well. The quality of the execution is key, if you didn't do something properly, you do it again with better application and planning, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
What is it that we are not doing properly? And how do you distinguish between improper execution and fecked up strategy?
 

JPRouve

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What is it that we are not doing properly? And how do you distinguish between improper execution and fecked up strategy?
I can't really know from the outside, I would have to know what they are trying to do in the first place.
 

Rista

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That's not a good strategy, "continue to fail and pray it works out this next time".
The strategy is not "continue to fail" though. Just like players, top managers fail all the time, often for reasons impossible or very hard to predict. The correct strategy is not to stop signing/hiring proven players and managers but to hire the best possible personnel all things considered. Both LVG and Jose were top coaches but not the right fit for one reason or another and neither performed to best of their abilities. This is why top clubs hire and sack managers all the time. They identify when things aren't working out and act on it. We're pretty much the only top club left with this romantic idea of what a manager should be.
 

JPRouve

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Fair enough. I like the honesty.
But I can speculate and say that I suspect that they never really asked themselves two simple questions. What SAF, the manager, brings to the club and how can we compensate the loss? I don't think that they asked themselves those questions or they didn't answer them honestly. I keep comparing them to the Stade Toulousain who also lost their long time manager who was also all powerful within the club, it took them one season to realize that they needed to change the internal structure of the club and they simply did that.
In 2013 SAF had almost 40 years of experience as an actual manager, he knew everyone, he knew what to do and not do. From an HR standpoint I don't really understand how anyone would think that it's a good idea to bring someone that isn't used to work in that type of role at that level without putting a structure around him that he could use at the very least as a crutch, I also don't understand how after 6 years they seemingly still haven't spotted one of the problems, actual managers are rare in 2019 and were already rare in 2013.
 

Kemizee

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You haven't yet tried the most obvious thing:

1) Hire a young manager with a good sense of modern tactics who has had some success elsewhere playing attacking football.

2) Then buy some players just entering their prime that manager wants so that he can build a team out of them.

That United hasn't given this a go in seven years is honestly quite astounding.

This is it!
 

Greck

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As is written in the OP, if its not Ole, who is it? This most qualified person?

Unfortunately and as we have experienced, its a little more complicated than just kicking a ball around a piece of grass.
You don't know how ridiculous this statement sounds. If not ole then who? Pick a name out of a hat at random and it's almost a certainty you'd pick a manager better than him. He isn't some SAF reincarnation to justify saying there's no one else to turn to
 

Robbie Boy

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We’ve tried 4 mangers who literally can’t coach any attacking play. In all honesty, we’ve really tried feck all. Trying something would be appointing a modern, progressive attacking manager who has a clear strategy and a style of play. It’s so obvious we need to do this but nah, we most likely won’t.
 
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noodlehair

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We haven't tried everything. We have tried several things badly and now appear to be trying nothing at all.

We have also tried some things that have worked, like playing Pogba in a more attacking role, and then for absolutely no reason at all decided to stop trying it and never try it again.
 

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Remove Woody from everything but dishing out the cash every transfer window to a DOF or whatever name he is given. Assign a long term plan to play attacking expansive football, then get a young manager in who has had success with this mode of play. Give him the coaches who also coach this way and have had success in developing players for the better. Give a free hand to the DOF and manager to choose and bring in young and experienced players who will also play this way and move the club forward.
If this was brought in everyone would be able to see where we are going and wouldnt have the disaster of the last 6 seasons. Fans would be in a better frame of mind and stay off the manager and players backs even if we didnt win anything for a season or two.
 

M Bison

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You don't know how ridiculous this statement sounds. If not ole then who? Pick a name out of a hat at random and it's almost a certainty you'd pick a manager better than him. He isn't some SAF reincarnation to justify saying there's no one else to turn to
You've completely missed the point i was making.

I was repeating the question the OP was saying, anyone can say "Ole isnt up to it and we need a change" but who would realistically take the job. You've clearly got some answers, so who should we bring in instead?
 

eire-red

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You may well have undermined your own argument.
Not sure about that to be fair. He's managed Southampton and Spurs, not hardly teams you'd expect him to be winning titles with. He took this current Spurs team a level far beyond what any Man Utd manager has achieved in the last 6 years. Winning the F.A. Cup or Europa Leauge didin't fix any of the glaring cracks at this club, find me a fan out there that would rather have those trophies than be challenging again among Eurpoe's elite.

We would have more of a chance of returning to where we want to be with him at the helm, of that I am positive. I'm open to being wrong, I want Ole to succeed as much as anyone but I just don't see it unfortunately. Bar Klopp and Pep, he's the best option for the club if he's available. The fact that he has not won something yet doesn't invalidate that fact.

If given the financial backing he never got at Spurs, I firmly think he would succeed here.
 
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The club is completely broken and will never be fixed under this ownership.

We need to change the club from top to bottom, new owners, new board, new manager, new coaches, new players. We need to change everything