Incident on London Bridge

[Wibble]

These acts are not in the name of Allah, not in the name of Islam, they are extremists who have a warped view of their religion.

I agree in a general sense but to be a pedant these warped individuals are acting in the name of Allah even if the vast majority of Muslims think they have warped his words and in no way represent their religion.

 

[Dante]

Sigh. Why can't people just be nice to eachother?

Aye, this is a fair point. By no means should anyone think this is a representation of Islam as a whole (because it's clearly not) but I think it's dishonest if we decide to dismiss a certain interpretation of a religion because it's the uncomfortable one. Presuming we're going on the basis of the text itself, it advocates both peace and violence. And while the vast majority in Britain and beyond will opt for the peaceful interpretation, there's clearly a significant sect which argues the opposite and which is causing death and destruction as a result.

The violence is down to PRECEDENT. When a legitimised example occurs, other people feel as though it's something they should copy. The key is to undercut that legitimisation, both religiously but also in terms of our reaction. The less we adversify mulsims as a whole, the more we undermine the political thrust of the extremist message.

Terrorism in the West isn't about political conquest. It's about subverting Democracy.

This event is going to event in a Conservative government. Shit.

 

[the hea]

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[Jericholyte2]

The proportion doesn't matter. There are probably close to 1.2bn interpretations of Islam to accompany those 1.2bn Muslims, it only takes a few extremists for it to be a problem.

How can the proportion not matter. In less serious circumstances, look at football hooligans, whenever something happens like that the first response is, "they aren't real football fans". Whenever a vile chant starts by a handful in a stadium we justify it with, "they aren't real fans."

Obviously the stakes are much greater here because lives have been lost but it is completely false to say that the interpretation of a thousandth of a percent is the fault of the entire religion.

 

[hobbers]

Are we really having pages of arguments about whether this is done in the name of religion or not... crikey.

 

[Dante]

The proportion doesn't matter. There are probably close to 1.2bn interpretations of Islam to accompany those 1.2bn Muslims, it only takes a few extremists for it to be a problem.

5.8 billion interpretations of capitalism related to the robbery in Manilla.

 

[Pscholes18]

Instead of debating religion and politics, why not just keep this topic open for updates of the situation.

 

[Bojan11]

Bush and Blair are just at fault for these nutjobs killing people as ISIS. Saddam was a crazy guy, but groups like ISIS would not have existed with him around. Iraq and the world were probably better off with Saddam alive.

 

[Lord Megadrive]

The fact is that it is a minority (no matter what the express or mail want you to think) My wife is a Sunni and although I'm not Muslim myself I have been accepted by her family and everyone I know via her family are ALWAYS ashamed and frightened when an atrocity like this happens.

 

[langster]

The proportion doesn't matter. There are probably close to 1.2bn interpretations of Islam to accompany those 1.2bn Muslims, it only take a few extremists for it to be a problem.

Those extremists have already achieved one of their goals as they have created arguments and division and distrust. They have successfully made people argue about religion and blame the attacks on one religion. They want a war, they want people to be afraid but they want as many to hate Islam and to hate Muslims too. They want everyone to be distrusting of Muslims or anyone with darker (or lighter) skin. They just want to create even more division.

The rest of us just have to carry on and try to live positive lives and spread love rather than fear and animosity. We need to educate our children about tolerance and respect and to never judge anyone based on colour, religion or sexual orientation and that way we can eventually win. The minute we give in to hate and ignorance and intolerance they win. As I said earlier not voting in arseholes who will make these matters worse is a massive step towards helping to eradicate this type of extremism in our society.

 

[P-Nut]

Any chance of a mod changing the title to stop this religious debate please? Just want to keep up to date with what is happening here really. @Damien

 

[Mockney]

How can the proportion not matter. In less serious circumstances, look at football hooligans, whenever something happens like that the first response is, "they aren't real football fans". Whenever a vile chant starts by a handful in a stadium we justify it with, "they aren't real fans."

And we only had to change the whole nature of football stadiums, our approach to policing and ban thousands of fans from travelling to solve our hooligan problem. If only we could....Oh. Yeah, probably not the ideal comparison.

 

[manunited1919]

Those extremists have already achieved one of their goals as they have created arguments and division and distrust. They have successfully made people argue about religion and blame the attacks on one religion. They want a war, they want people to be afraid but they want as many to hate Islam and to hate Muslims too. They want everyone to be distrusting of Muslims or anyone with darker (or lighter) skin. They just want to create even more division.

The rest of us just have to carry on and try to live positive lives and spread love rather than fear and animosity. We need to educate our children about tolerance and respect and to never judge anyone based on colour, religion or sexual orientation and that way we can eventually win. The minute we give in to hate and ignorance and intolerance they win. As I said earlier not voting in arseholes who will make these matters worse is a massive step towards helping to eradicate this type of extremism in our society.

I agree with you, but it can't all be peace and love. We also need to go hard and nail the people who are brainwashing and spreading the hatred and the extremism. Wherever they are, even in our own countries; they must be under surveillance and if they are spreading the hatred, need to go down.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Aye, this is a fair point. By no means should anyone think this is a representation of Islam as a whole (because it's clearly not) but I think it's dishonest if we decide to dismiss a certain interpretation of a religion because it's the uncomfortable one. Presuming we're going on the basis of the text itself, it advocates both peace and violence. And while the vast majority in Britain and beyond will opt for the peaceful interpretation, there's clearly a significant sect which argues the opposite and which is causing death and destruction as a result.

But is the Quran and the skewed interpretation of it really that big a factor in the recruiting of potential terrorists?

I always assumed other factors like anti-Western propaganda or anti-Shia in the middle east were more tempting factors.

I wonder if more knowledgeable folks on this subject like @2cents and @2mufc0 can shed some light.

 

[Fergies Gum]

Take the religious debate to another thread.

 

[Silva]

How can the proportion not matter. In less serious circumstances, look at football hooligans, whenever something happens like that the first response is, "they aren't real football fans". Whenever a vile chant starts by a handful in a stadium we justify it with, "they aren't real fans."

Obviously the stakes are much greater here because lives have been lost but it is completely false to say that the interpretation of a thousandth of a percent is the fault of the entire religion.

And in this analogy, it's pretty clear they are real football fans. And pretending they weren't isn't what lowered hooliganism.

5.8 billion interpretations of capitalism related to the robbery in Manilla.

As with the above analogy, just because he was greedy doesn't mean greedy people who don't commit atrocities can wave a magic wand and say "he's not really greedy, he's fake greedy".

Those extremists have already achieved one of their goals as they have created arguments and division and distrust. They have successfully made people argue about religion and blame the attacks on one religion. They want a war, they want people to be afraid but they want as many to hate Islam and to hate Muslims too. They want everyone to be distrusting of Muslims or anyone with darker (or lighter) skin. They just want to create even more division.

The rest of us just have to carry on and try to live positive lives and spread love rather than fear and animosity. We need to educate our children about tolerance and respect and to never judge anyone based on colour, religion or sexual orientation and that way we can eventually win. The minute we give in to hate and ignorance and intolerance they win. As I said earlier not voting in arseholes who will make these matters worse is a massive step towards helping to eradicate this type of extremism in our society.

I agree with every word of this, and I'm not advocating any anti-Islam legislation or measures. It's obvious that anything nearly along those lines is counter productive, cruel and makes society worse. But there's little point in pretending that people who commit atrocities while earnestly shouting "this is for Allah" aren't Muslim.

 

[bri2013]

If I wanted a religious discussion, wouldn't I go into the religious discussion thread? The same thing happened in the Manchester Arena thread too. I just want to know what has happened. Not trawl through walls of religious discussion text.

We have threadbanned the only person we have noticed getting close to crossing the line despite nobody reporting his posts.

Since this is Muslim terrorism I can't see how or why it souldn't be discussed/mentioned and as long as it is conducted in a manner within the rules.

I think maybe you need to rethink your post a little!

Muslim related. Probably more related than Irish terrorism was to religion. So religion related discussion is inevitable.

You can discuss the link between Muslim (related) terrorism and the religion itself without thinking Muslim=terrorist. Not that all people can of course.

Are we really having pages of arguments about whether this is done in the name of religion or not... crikey.

Instead of debating religion and politics, why not just keep this topic open for updates of the situation.

I will leave it there!

 

[Fergies Gum]

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[spwd]

Can we not just keep this thread for updates ffs, if you want to discuss religion or politics open a fecking thread.

 

[Wibble]

I'm not sure it is needed but to stop this thread getting swamped with both religion vs terrorism arguments and people posting about it not being used for religion vs terrorism arguments I have created this thread https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-link-between-religion-amd-terrorism.429640/

Please post in the appropriate thread from this point onwards.

 

[spwd]

I'm not sure it is needed but to stop this thread getting swamped with both religion vs terrorism arguments and people posting about it not being used for religion vs terrorism arguments I have created this thread https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-link-between-religion-amd-terrorism.429640/

Please post in the appropriate thread from this point onwards.

Thank you.

 

[Runner]

I'm deeply saddened by the news of another terrorist attack in England. Such a lovely country with lovely people. Be safe everyone.

 

[bri2013]

I'm not sure it is needed but to stop this thread getting swamped with both religion vs terrorism arguments and people posting about it not being used for religion vs terrorism arguments I have created this thread https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-link-between-religion-amd-terrorism.429640/

Please post in the appropriate thread from this point onwards.

Well done, the thread title is "incident on London bridge" so it should be about that and nothing else.

 

[langster]

@zeekey Have you heard from your sister?

I hope you have and thoughts are with you if you haven't heard anything yet. Best wishes mate.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Has ISIS claimed this attack as well saying it was done by their brothers whose names they do not know, their nationalities they do not know and their age they obviously do not know

 

[spwd]

@zeekey Have you heard from your sister?

I hope you have and thoughts are with you if you haven't heard anything yet. Best wishes mate.

Yep please let us know asap @zeekey , fingers crossed she's fine.

 

[GDaly95]

Devastated by this. I really hope that there's as few fatalities as there possibly can be and that every suspect is caught as soon as possible so that the people of London can rest easy. I really feel sorry for people in London at the moment, it must be such a horrible feeling.

And I ask this question with a bit of hesitancy because I'm not trying to spread fear or anything, but to the people on here who live and work around central London; do you think you'll find it difficult to live normally for the foreseeable future? I'm just thinking if this happened in Dublin which I pass through daily, I don't think I'd be at all comfortable with walking through the city centre on a daily basis. Are people in London expected to go to work tomorrow? Are you okay with it? I guess the last thing you can do is let yourself become too afraid to live on normally but it just seems increasingly difficult.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Devastated by this. I really hope that there's as few fatalities as there possibly can be and that every suspect is caught as soon as possible so that the people of London can rest easy. I really feel sorry for people in London at the moment, it must be such a horrible feeling.

And I ask this question with a bit of hesitancy because I'm not trying to spread fear or anything, but to the people on here who live and work around central London; do you think you'll find it difficult to live normally for the foreseeable future? I'm just thinking if this happened in Dublin which I pass through daily, I don't think I'd be at all comfortable with walking through the city centre on a daily basis. Are people in London expected to go to work tomorrow? Are you okay with it? I guess the last thing you can do is let yourself become too afraid to live on normally but it just seems increasingly difficult.

Rich people may have a choice of going or not going to work or going to work with more protection after attack or greater levels of threat. For common working folks they really don't have a choice. You got to work to take care of your family.
Media calls this "Spirit of XXXX city" and hypes it as some proof of the unbreakable spirit of people in a city.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Scotland Yard: Three suspects shot dead by police. 6 victims killed, unclear if there are more suspects.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Met Police has said 3 male suspect shot and killer in Borough Market , wearing fake bomb vests, they have also said 6 are known to be dead.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

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Not for long, hopefully. I know that some years back i ahd my doubts over the prevalence of CCTV in London, but at times like this it msut come into its own.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

The 3 attackers were shot and killed within 8 minutes, well done to the Police, I have no doubt their speed in responding to the incident saved many lives.

 

[Silva]

Is it 6 dead overall? Or 6 victims + the 3 terrorists?

 

[Wibble]

With (hopefully) all three attackers shot dead so fast the response was incredible.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Is it 6 dead overall? Or 6 victims + the 3 terrorists?

6 victims murdered and 3 bastards executed.

 

[Abizzz]

6 Victims and 3 attackers according to the police spokesperson on Sky.

 

[bri2013]

Is it 6 dead overall? Or 6 victims + the 3 terrorists?

It looks like 6 dead + 3 attackers on BBC news

 

[Silva]

It looks like 6 dead + 3 attackers on BBC news

Yeah, just turned it back on. Terrible for the families, hopefully those in hospital make a full recovery.

 

[langster]

So hold on, the 3 attackers killed, but what about the guy in the picture the one handcuffed with the canisters?

He must have been dead, but he sure looks alive the way he is contorted.

 

[Silva]

So hold on, the 3 attackers killed, but what about the guy in the picture the one handcuffed with the canisters?

He must have been dead, but he sure looks alive the way he is contorted.

Possibly died later. But we don't have any such info yet.