This is what I have found among Indians now as well.
The Gandhis need to step away from politics for India to come back to democracy.
India politics thread
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The Gandhis need to step away from politics for India to come back to democracy.
What form does fascism take in India these days?
Stalin is going to win in India. Is TN going to be better under Stalin than now?
How the government fecked up genome sequencing (read all slides). Also worth noting that the double mutant strain was identified towards the end of last year.
Absolute leeches. Their ineptness led to the rise of the BJP. Gandhis will probably never step away. They would have done so already if that was the intention. Gandhis would rather wait decades for the BJP to self sabotage than relinquish power.
Then someone or people should push them out just like in Sri Lanka where Ranil Wikramasinghe refused to leave and the younger party members left and formed their own party and became the official opposition.
thankfully it's less than 90% support. Muslims and Christians make up close to 20% and there's still left leaning Hindus thankfully.
Your average Indian voter despises human rights, free speech and the democratic process. Not entirely their own fault, the previous so called "liberal" regimes were the text book defination of inefficiency and unnecessary bureaucracy.
The idea that democracy and human rights are holding back progress is very prevalent and openly discussed. People often cite China as an example of a nation not caring about "Western ideals" like democracy and still achieving economic growth. Never mind the concentration camps and lack of freedom. "You cant make an omlette without breaking a few eggs" mentality. Usually the targets are the underprivileged castes, working class and religious minorities so the majority feel comfortable voting for and advocating authoritarian regimes.
Freedom of speech is often portrayed by the media and the far right as an attack on Indian culture and tradition. Which according to them is meak passivity and blind reverence towards authority and elders. The obsession and love for authority is off the charts here and would make the blue lives matter brigade blush (which I think stems from the guru-shishya dynamic of ancient India but that is a seperate discussion).
The disdain the rich urban harbour towards the working class and the poor is disgusting. Domestic help and maids are treated like dogshit and the poor are generally looked down upon as being dumb and dirty. Caste is also a major issue which is often downplayed by most people. Manual Scavenging is a horrid practice and it boggles my mind why its still going on.
Ancient India is glorified beyond all reasonable logic. Its portrayed as a paradise free of crime and suffering which was ruined by hoards of uncivilized Muslim invaders.
I can go all night about fascism in India really. There is too much stuff to talk about. CAA/NRC, UAPA, Sedition laws, eco-fascism etc
very long academic essay on this: https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3144-india-liberal-democracy-and-the-extreme-right
It's absolutely heartbreaking to see what is going on in India. I saw an official report in work a couple of days ago and it's much more grim that I realised from following the news on twitter.
Was surprised when I saw that Sky was showing Indian cricket last night, id assumed everyday life had basically been suspended. I guess not
Was surprised when I saw that Sky was showing Indian cricket last night, id assumed everyday life had basically been suspended. I guess not
Amazing post.
I can't believe it either. Then again, it's a distraction from the horrific governance, so they're letting it run.
Allowing State to procure has to be one of the biggest blunder ( although it's difficult to keep track at the moment) by Centre. I can understand why it was done as politics was being played on availability. Plus this socialist attitude of deciding what the price of vaccine should be when support for developing and infrastructure is severely limited.
Not suprising to see this happening. Centre should have carried forward with acquisition and distribution. Big blow to entrepreneurial environment as we have SC and celebrity who think they know what the price should be.
Not suprising to see this happening. Centre should have carried forward with acquisition and distribution. Big blow to entrepreneurial environment as we have SC and celebrity who think they know what the price should be.
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Paywall. Can you please dm me the text of this? Very curious to read.
Has exceprts from the interview
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...accine-pressure-in-india-101619873739116.html
Basically State government and business conglomerates threatening him to supply vaccine and not taking not possible as answer. Plus widespread misinformation about pricing making him the villain when his company effort is going to save millons. It's sad that he is now considering moving some production centre out of India.
Please enlighten what the proper information regarding pricing is.
To me at least it seems that the Modi govt deliberately restricted manufacturing to these two companies (SII and Bharat Biotech) to limit profits to a select few and ultimately have a quid pro quo with them. Hence, the random pricing structure where there’s differentiation without any logical reason being provided to either the states or the public.
Secondly, now there is going to be a clear case vaccine shortfall due to the ineptitude of our supreme leaders. Poonawalla fecking off to another country is a major kick in the nuts to the entire vaccination drive. It is shocking but not surprising that still people have found reasons to even blame this on the opposition.
Regarding the overall vaccination strategy, if we were willing to approve vaccines like Covaxin without proper Phase 3 results, why did we not fight to fastrack Pfizer, Moderna, J&J or even Sputnik V before trials in India. Why is the overall vaccine manufacturing limited to these two firms and the entire pharma manufacturing ecosystem (Cipla, Dr Reddy’s, Sun Pharma etc.) not being utilised?
But no. Some opposition leader allegedly made Adar Poonawalla sad over some phone calls and hence they are the reason our entire vaccination strategy is fecked. Modi is best.
That man has been a disaster for the world just like Trump was and still could be.
I'm not well read on the economics and the nuances of it, but there was a fantastic discussion on Clubhouse just today with some economists and people in healthcare. I have also read a few other things which provide useful information.
The USA had a very good vaccination funding strategy from the beginning. They invested in a diverse portfolio of vaccines spanning multiple technologies, providing advance market commitments for significant volume. I have seen multiple numbers bandied about but I think the total amount they put in was close to $20 billion. What that allowed vaccine manufacturers to do was not be afraid that a market would exist, and allowed them to scale manufacturing to ensure supply. This always seemed a good strategy to me, and some economists were calling it a good strategy as early as mid 2020. Billions invested would save trillions in the economy(plus the lives of course) and billions < trillions is very simple math.
India did not do this. India did a terrible job, and were instead haggling with Serum(who were funding their own scale) for a lower price for months. That was mistake number one and a very costly mistake. As late as January, India was still penny pinching and had booked only 10m doses when they themselves had promised 345 people innoculated(2x the doses) by July. These 700m doses were never going to come out of thin air. They should've funded Serum much, much earlier than the cheque they brought out a couple of weeks ago.
At the start of the pandemic, and in fact, well into the pandemic, vaccine demand was not huge. More importantly, the number of approved vaccines was nil. What has happened since then in Q4 and early Q1 2021 is a lot of vaccines are now approved. There is now suddenly demand for 14 billion doses. What that means is that the raw materials used to manufacture vaccines are a lot more expensive now. There is manufacturing capacity all over the world and Serum is competing with these people to get hold of the raw materials. These raw materials do not scale so rapidly, so the cost to procure these are going to become higher as the supply scales to meet demand. The price that Serum gave at 150 rupees allows them to manufacture at profit but for them to compete on the global market, they need to be making a lot more profit to re-invest it. Serum making more money on the margins allows them to provide more vaccines to us and the world. Capping the price is handicapping our own supply chain.
Did Modi and co feck up(multiple times)? Yes. @pratyush_utd's point is not that. It's the fact that our policies after fecking up are probably limiting our own supply. We have the vaccines we have today because Serum financed their own manufacturing. We'd be a lot worse if they hadn't.
The point on "entire pharma system" not being utilized is also a red herring and it is not true.
Not sure what you are referring to but State government is not exactly opposition considering 17 states are governed by ruling BJP. I was referring to the mess this decision of allowing States to procure vaccine on their own was not correct policy as there is quite disparity between spending power of few state and rest of the country.
Pfizer wanted India to sign liability agreement and with its sophisticated needs, only few cities with few center would have been able to administer it. Moderna has the same issue. Bharat Biotech had trials going on in India and they had given emergency nod only to plug the gap in supply from Covishield. It shows in number, 1cr out of 15 cr administered is Covaxin.
I agree with not liberalising patents from Bharath Biotech for Covaxin to other manufacturer, we have wasted a long time but they hardly anticipated we will be hit this hard. But no other company have the capacity to produce vaccine in such large number. Even Bharath Biotech can produce 7-8 m a year. Not sure about the technicalities needed by other manufacturer to start producing someone else vaccine. So it's not an easy decision as you think it is
Plus I don't like how Central government basically acted like big brother and stopped these vaccine company from setting their own price. We don't provide any financial assistance to ramp up their infrastructure but expect cheaper vaccine and somehow these company also ramp up their production numbers . Good luck with such policy if you think keeping rates down is going to help.
I understand this forum basically has people who are left leaning but the truth is left economic doesn't work. Paying right price for vaccine would have helped these manufacturer to ramp up production. We hardly invest in private companies and then blame them for looking at profit. This might sound rude in pandemic but without those profits these company will cease to exist and we wouldn't have vaccine in first place.
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Also to add one point to pricing, Serum priced it at 150 and all those global price that newspaper flashed, were agreed before the efficacy was proved. That was high risk investment so the price was low. Even the current order of Central government is just continuation of that order.
So it was obvious that price will go up. Especially when we are expecting them to invest in ramping up production.
One more point , recently after fire in Serum institute, they lost 1000cr worth of infrastructure. They pleaded with Indian government to release the funds so that it can invest, we simply neglected the request. Funds were released when it was already too late.
This news also won't go down well with a lot of people. Reliance industries are providing 11% of total medical grade oxygen daily produced in India saving millions of life. More work than any state or central government has done in pandemic.
This is why I didn't like when political leaders use industries to score political points. Government should be encouraged to invest in private companies, banks and healthcare facilities. Maybe government funding oxygen plants construction in hospitals of delhi might have saved so many lives.
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This is why I didn't like when political leaders use industries to score political points. Government should be encouraged to invest in private companies, banks and healthcare facilities. Maybe government funding oxygen plants construction in hospitals of delhi might have saved so many lives.
Huh!
@zing they are selling to the centre at a profit at 150 rs. they wanted to sell to states at 600, which means their profit margin would be over 300%. not bad for a company which did zero r&d!
I'm also going to suggest that selling ~1.3bn doses (assuming half the population was given this vaccine by the central govt) for 150 each (and making a profit on each one) would have left the company with pretty healthy financials. Indeed they aren't complaining about selling millions of doses to the EU for Rs.160 ($2.15) or the UK for Rs. 225 ($3).
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We live in a market economy. The govt does not control many industries. More than 75% of healthcare spending in India is private, and almost all pharma manufacturing is private. Most chemical industries are private, and Reliance is the biggest one, dominating chemical and petrochemicals since before I was born. The only substantial public sector manufacturing is coal and steel, but even in steel SAIL is about equal with private players like Tata and Jindal.
You are praising private companies for providing oxygen , unlike "state govts". But, as part of our market liberalisation, governments, especially state govts, no longer make or use much oxygen. It would be like wondering why Infosys isn't making aircraft or Parle isn't making lightbulbs. The few govt entities that do make oxygen - steel plants - are all diverting their oxygen to hospitals. For example:
https://www.livemint.com/news/india...gen-for-covid-19-patients-11619444952037.html
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ister-dharmendra-pradhan-101619254038898.html
It is good that Reliance, India's biggest and most proitable company led by India's richest man, is giving O2 free. It is wrong to say it has not got the benefit of govt "investment", in many many many different areas, few examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Wars
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/R...-initial-Rafael-remarks-questionable-Aru.html
And there is older stuff too, Pranab Mukherjee, who was Defence Minister, Finance Minister, Foreign Minister, part of the Planning Commission, and President, was "very close" to Dhirubhai. Murli and Milind Deora, who were Oil Ministers, are Ambani men.
Btw, your proposal that Delhi govt build oxygen plants is exactly the bad old days of Nehruvian socialism that were left behind in 1991.
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Gotta say, if it wasn’t for this thread & the Straylan thread, my time spent learning more about Indian & Australian politics would be far, far less.
Both threads have sent me on quite a few searches on my own regarding recent events in both countries & jumping off from there.
The raw material pricing now vs when they sold it at 150 rupees is substantially different. Note that the sales to USA and U.K. were based on advance commitments made a year ago. The rest of the volume to other countries was also minuscule and if I’m not wrong, a lot of it was either covax commitments or manufacturing down via his own funding a year ago at cheaper prices which the government got hold of to do exports.Huh!
@zing they are selling to the centre at a profit at 150 rs. they wanted to sell to states at 600, which means their profit margin would be over 300%. not bad for a company which did zero r&d!
I'm also going to suggest that selling ~1.3bn doses (assuming half the population was given this vaccine by the central govt) for 150 each (and making a profit on each one) would have left the company with pretty healthy financials. Indeed they aren't complaining about selling millions of doses to the EU for Rs.160 ($2.15) or the UK for Rs. 225 ($3).
I am aware he was on tv saying he now makes ‘super profits’ vs ‘profits’. I am trying to find some concrete sources for the pricing without which I can’t argue much more - let you know if I get hold of good ones. There is stuff online saying raw materials are a lot more expensive but am looking for a unit economics breakdown.
Is the death toll reported accurate? 200k seems to be a bit on the low side. I have some Indian friends telling me its at least a million.
Easily a million, probably several million.
Any anecdotal evidence as to such, any credible articles / authors?
Would be interested in reading.
I would imagine there are many unaccounted deaths in the rural areas. Also probably the Indian government playing down the severity of the issue.
Five to ten times as many?
Easily
hard to say exactly, this mass fudging has been in the 2nd wave, not as much in the 1st. this was the analysis of how much is being undercounted:
Other than maybe the 1st, all these are fairly big cities (3 are state capitals), spread over 4 states, showing a lot of undercounting, maybe a factor of 10. and then we know in more rural areas it will be worse, but also the disease has spread less there.
Jesus.hard to say exactly, this mass fudging has been in the 2nd wave, not as much in the 1st. this was the analysis of how much is being undercounted:
Other than maybe the 1st, all these are fairly big cities (3 are state capitals), spread over 4 states, showing a lot of undercounting, maybe a factor of 10. and then we know in more rural areas it will be worse, but also the disease has spread less there.
The cremation numbers are staggering.
Tough to mask that.
Thanks man
v surprised by bengal results, especially the margin. others seem to be expected.
Yeah I joined the Caf for Man Utd but I rarely visit the football forums.
Anecdote from my side, in my city, there's now a 24 hour wait to cremate/bury. This, despite running 24/7. Completely unheard of previously.
This is a brilliant post. Might quote you in a couple of places.